U40 - R.I.P. Heroic Monks

[Tuxedoman96]

Essentially the only thing we are disagreeing on at this point is where the nerf should be placed. I think the capstone because of the already overly powerful class. You think duality, which is under the presumption that monk is only OP when weiding those handwraps which even a 1st grader with the most basic of math skills can understand why that simply isn't the case. Nerfing the weapon instead doesn't address the issue the devs are trying to address, which is the monk class in and of itself. I think the changes that should be made are to the enhancement line since it's the enhancement line that brought it out of balance to begin with. As the other person above so reasonably stated it's the same situation warlocks were in where they were out performing compared to the intended performances and so they needed it and all the crybabies in the forum are doing exactly as they are in this thread. They are over dramatizing the situation crying bloody murder because they're handicap is getting revoked and they will actually have to develop some skill. Warlocks turned out just fine as will Monks.

Nerfing the handwraps is a jab in the back to the people that choose to play endgame and get rewarded for their hardwork and dedication.

What youre saying is simply unreasonable and counter intuitive to the intended plans of the devs.

Why not go with both? The weapon is OP, and the monk dmg itself can use a little nerf. I'm not sure if it makes sense to "jab" at a class that needs jabbing and also not jab at a weapon that would probably also need some more jabbing. There was no reason to introduce + bonuses inside the based weapon brackets when monks get so many bonuses to [W] modifiers. In addition, even if it's providing a reward for hardwork and dedication, sometimes the reward is still too great.

[Tuxedoman96]

In all of my suggestions, I did not include handwraps themselves - just the Reinforced Fists items. How can you go on saying that 2.5[W] is not a big nerf, but it is strong enough to destroy builds if the nerf came from elsewhere?

And removing die from Shintao would make people go Kensai instead? Doesn't that same logic apply to core Monk as well as you'd still be losing out on die whether you lose it from monk levels or not being able to obtain them due to not enough Monk levels for cores?

Ultimately you could translate nerf options as:

- Removing from monk cores: Destroys a core D&D class concept, hits Monks heavily in Heroics with an ultimate 2.5[W] hit to pure unarmed monks and anywhere from 0 to 2[W] hit on cross class unarmed builds.

- Removing them from feats/reinforced fist items: Equally hits Pure and cross class monks (with the exception of sub 12-level which wouldn't get the feat anyways), with .5[W] taken away in 10+ heroics and 1.5[W] in early epics and fully 2.5[W] in later epics. Newer players that are not fully geared out are not hit as hard.

- Removing from Shintao Cores (Note that the full 2.5[W] or 3[W] would not need to be removed. 1[W] could be left in capstone and the Improved Martial Arts feat could be nerfed to .5[W] to achieve the 2.5[W]): This would only affect pure Shintao builds, which are also the ones quoted to be the "problem". Cross class and alternate builds would be unaffected. Removal of the die increases from the cores may indeed encourage other splits and enhancement spreads, but would not kill pure Shintao builds. They could also add something in the place of it, such as a 1% to-hit chance in 18 and 2% to-hit chance in 20.

- Removing/Nerfing A Dance of Flowers: This would not be just a Monk nerf, but rather one that hit Monks, Kensai, and Vistani builds. All three are "up there" on DPS, so if a Monk is considered "outlier" when Vistani and Kensai can out-DPS them, this may be a great source that properly shaves all three. Though moving it up in the GMoF tree could be a better idea - stop it from being an easy twist without nerfing an already weak destiny.

While there are some claiming that Duality is the outlier, there are other weapons that are just as good as Duality. If Duality is an outlier, than it would be because it is on a Monk, and thus it should be Monk that is looked at rather than Duality (what was broken on Duality -- giving THF base damage on TWF speed has already been fixed). I would fully welcome removal of Impact on the weapon to drop 2[W], however there has been multiple arguments and numbers and videos presented that Monks are not an outlier for DPS. But that argument is moot at this point... all I care about is them not destroying a game concept when there are perfectly good options that don't.

I support this. Unfortunately there isn't any dev response on what they hope to accomplish in addition to nerfing capped monks. Honestly, it becomes increasingly aggravating to reason out motives, etc. and maintain a level of trust when so much is left obscure and there is hardly any transparency for goals or logic behind the taken actions. We need clarification and verification. So far, the most that has been given to us is that monk DPS will be shaved off by 10% at cap on a sufficiently specced and geared toon. Anything else is conjecture. While I support the idea that perhaps they and many others feel monks deal too much dmg for the survivability and CC given to them, the devs themselves have not acknowledge any of this, making their actions, which would otherwise seem at least a little bit more reasonable, appear whimsical.

[Tuxedoman96]

um.... .5w translates to + 1d3.... I didnt list the base damage of wraps cause those are not changing. 3.5w - 2.5w = 1 or: 3d6 +1d3- (2d6 + 1d3) = 1d6.

So all the numbers I listed are just what is LOST when this change goes live.

weapon dice multipliers actually work a little bit differently. I tested this on toons that could apply [W] bonuses, since I was curious as to how they affected the base dmg rating. If 1.5[1d6]=1d6 + 1d3, you should never get a value of 1. In fact, the dmg range should be a strict gradient of 2-9. That isn't the case. the multiplier takes the value you rolled and multiplies that value. in this case, the values you would get for 1.5[1d6] would be 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9 going from lowest roll possible to highest (it rounds down). That actually leads to a smaller average dmg, since (1+3+4+6+7+9)/6 = 30/6 = 5, whereas the alternative average (since it's two rolls) would be 7/2 + 4/2 = 3.5 +2 = 5.5. It doesn't really have a bearing on your rebuttal, I just thought it's a nice tidbit.

Edit: just realized that since it's a strict gradient I could have just done 11/2 (since there's no missing values I just have to take the highest and lowest values)

[Tuxedoman96]

If you can solo anything at all on r10 with ANY class, it deserves a nerf. you cant do it on monk why? because you cant hit mobs in your perch spots up high with your ranged attacks/magic when they can do nothing to hit you? yeah devs need to fix every spot in game like this and I will help them and try to find them all. every, single, one. I've already started a screen shot collection and I am the type who really does NOT care what player I upset about it all.

a monk has to be up close, your one shotted cuz you have no tank. is that why you don't think you can do it on a monk? go ahead and claim you don't do that without a vid link. its fine. this is why this community makes me leave ddo more and more. they are more about crying for the easy button than do a real challenge, so they can brag they are 'good' at perching but not tell you that and hope you believe it.

Reaper was created for a reason. to create real CHALLENGE for those who have little else left to do. that's r10. they offered the skulls for difficulty options. just like norm, hard, elite. I liked that. r1 for those who have a few past lives and r10 for basically everyone who has everything and all gear and has nothing better to do but test their limits. but it should not be soloable by any means. it promotes group play and I like that. this is an MMO after all. guess everyone forgot that.

I'm not sure if reaper can be considered a challenge in the truest sense of the word until we remove obvious perching exploits and the egregious artificial stupidity that runs rampant in the game. Those aspects, in addition to OP class mechanics from new or improved classes/races and general power creep, are big assets to people who solo that difficulty. The reaper trees definitely don't help the situation either.

[Tuxedoman96]

well its a good thing that 'new players' can play on normal and still zoom through levels easily. im here laughing at this because people seem to forget that no one is forcing you to run reaper on a brand new toon and as a brand new player. wait a minute. isn't monk a pay class? how is new said player going to do that anyways without paying for it??? oops they are now premium and can buy pots too with left over pts or what evs. this post is hilarious. ty for it.

btw heroic is a complete joke if you have at least 3 past lives you remember how to kill stuff. oh noes that heroic warlock nerf! i didn't care one bit. can still solo r4 efficiently. i can even manage 6 just for giggles but its a waste of time. im not here for burning an hour per quest im here for past lives. r1? pft zerg fest and any/every one is free to pike it. gimme a break rofl

You'd think that, but unless you came across a large base of players that got together (maybe as a new players' guild or something), then the incentive is to run higher difficulties. Look at normal-elite. First of all, the xp bonus is larger from one difficulty to the next. This means that older players are running higher difficulties to push out past lives faster. If the veteran players are grouping together to this end, then how do the newer players learn? Playing? Honestly, there is only so much that one person can learn by themselves or by running with people of similar ability. Normal is a cakewalk for most quests, hard can be for earlier quests or for most quests provided a person is decently geared and possibly has some PLs. Elite ease of running depends on several factors, but for a person with multiple past lives and good gearing, that too is laughably easy. Then reaper comes in promising to be different. Promises of group play (which are somewhat legitimate) and challenge (which depends on the skull), and yet people are still wanting. In all honesty, reaper should have been made so difficult that only the best would even dare to attempt it. Then that would leave some of the not-quite-at-the-end-of-their-TR-cycle-players to help newer players by running elite (which is still a shame, but is what it is). You don't make a challenge difficulty accessible to everyone. You also don't incentivize it with xp, something necessary for leveling, acquiring power and expediting a tedious process.

[Tuxedoman96]

If they nerf handwraps, EDs, and unarmed gear instead and hit all the splash builds, you will have to nerf pure monk again separately to bring them down to a balanced level. Heh.

For example, if they removed A Dance of Flowers from the game, since centered kensais would lose 1.5[w], to bring pure monks down to centered kensais, monks would still need to be nerfed the original 2.5 [w], on top of also losing A Dance of Flowers.

Same for any handwrap splashed build vs. pure monk.

Which I'm totally in favor of, so let's try your way first by taking 2.5[W] from everyone, then when monk is still too powerful, lets take another 2.5[w] just from monk. Heh.

While I definitely am not in favor of removing the [W] bonus from ED, I doubt the other nerfing prospects would result in monks being too powerful. For one thing, with the dev-proposed changes, multiclassed unarmed monks are still getting nerfed. In fact I would say more so in some respects than pure monks because they can't benefit from the Capstone anyways, making the loss of +.5[W] to +2[W] more impactful (any build with less than 4 monk would obviously be unaffected). By your logic, pure monks would have to get nerfed more no matter where they would take the damage from, since if they took from the handwraps, both pure and multiclass would feel it; if they took from ED, more than unarmed monks would feel it; if they took from unarmed gear, both pure and multiclass would feel it. They are reducing the dmg by trivializing the unarmed strike feat, and pure and multiclass monks will feel it. In any of these cases, even the devs' suggestion in their infinite wisdom, the multiclass monks also suffer. However, with the nerfs to the aspects outside of the class feat, it preserves another aspect of multiclass. The less we preserve the core aspects of a class the more meaningless nonstandard multiclassing becomes. Soon there will be even fewer reasons to not do a 2-6-12 split or a 18-2 or 18-1-1 split with monks.

[Tuxedoman96]

I will say that the lack of dev conversation on a topic of core concept for a class astounds me. There seems to be no interest in acknowledging the concerns of the players nor any sort of reasoning for why a core class concept can't remain in the game (atk bonus does not embody the concept of unarmed strike). All the initial comments the devs gave us has done is allow conspiracy theories to run rampant. Can't we ever just have a nice, clear, concise exchange of exactly what they want and an acknowledgement of consideration for different ideas?

[NXPlasmid]

I will say that the lack of dev conversation on a topic of core concept for a class astounds me. There seems to be no interest in acknowledging the concerns of the players nor any sort of reasoning for why a core class concept can't remain in the game (atk bonus does not embody the concept of unarmed strike). All the initial comments the devs gave us has done is allow conspiracy theories to run rampant. Can't we ever just have a nice, clear, concise exchange of exactly what they want and an acknowledgement of consideration for different ideas?

It's in U40. They aren't asking us about the change, they are simply telling us it's being changed. Basically SSG's response is the equivalent to "Because I said so."

[Nubom70]

Instead of changing the one set of wraps they said were causing a phantom issue at 29-30 (with 0 supporting data from SSG, they refuse to post the builds they use).... they wrecked heroic monks,
taking away a DnD core class skill. Monk had that for 12 years, and NOW, they decide it's for "balance", after the raid wraps parsed too high on a mystery test. Even with the raid wraps, monks aren't
top damage. Basic tested builds of barbarians, rangers, and rogues all parse higher, by quite a bit in most cases (such as the double vulnerability build) The only "close" monk parse was during
whirlwinding in large groups. So, a loss of over (2.5)w damage (void's bugged now too), for a +5 to hit which does nothing for the "supposed" level 29+ fix, is a joke at any level.

This change is so badly mismanaged, there isn't a single monk left on our grouping lists for heroic, most are now barbarians. Awesome job, SSG..... /Toot-toot..... ICEBURG.