U40 - R.I.P. Heroic Monks

[Codect]

Heroic monks are fine.

First you soundburst.......

[Tilomere]

That's not very friendly sil :c

Kensai is going to be nerfed after monks. You could tell from all the cleric feedback after they made warpriest/warsoul as powerful as they wanted and everyone said splashing kensai was better.

I'm guessing -20 melee power nerf, half from core 5, half from opportunity attack. If they started the kensai nerfs after warpriest feedback, they should be close to popping up around now.

[Phoenicis]

Heroic monks are fine.

First you soundburst, then cleave and great cleave with a quarterstaff, then hit WWA with handwraps, finishing stragglers and bosses with the handwraps.

This gives you the option of divine might, grace or will from the soundburst splash, and can make use of any dps tree that boosts handwraps and staff damage or adds helpless damage or cleaves or sneak damage like NiS, falconry, kensai, KotC, acrobat or assassin, as well as racial trees like HOrc or WF.

And I think you are confused, the +5 to hit bonus was always there. It is the monks full heoic BaB while fighting unarmed and centered bonus. It's not a trade.

I just need me a good macro program.

How, exactly, do you soundburst on a pure monk?

[NXPlasmid]

How, exactly, do you soundburst on a pure monk?

Obviously you can't. Posting comments like that to justify this really absurd nerf is rediculous, just like the change. And Steelstar doesn't dare comment, you couldn't put out the flames with an ocean of water. Most of my hopes that SSG was going to be better than Turbine are going quickly down the toilet...

[Tilomere]

Posting comments like that to justify this really absurd nerf is rediculous, just like the change.

Whoa there I'm not justifying anything.

How, exactly, do you soundburst on a pure monk?

Twist it from EA.

[Nubom70]

Steelstar doesn't dare comment, you couldn't put out the flames with an ocean of water. .

You won't hear from him, he'd get buried with actual facts. This is roughly a 25% hit on monks DPS in heroic, for around a 10% change in group DPS (not 1v1)
with one specific ED build of monk at CAP, with raid gear (neck and wraps). It's totally off balance, and just kills any fun this class and game used to have.

[Phoenicis]

Heroic monks are fine.

First you soundburst, then cleave and great cleave with a quarterstaff, then hit WWA with handwraps, finishing stragglers and bosses with the handwraps.

This gives you the option of divine might, grace or will from the soundburst splash, and can make use of any dps tree that boosts handwraps and staff damage or adds helpless damage or cleaves or sneak damage like NiS, falconry, kensai, KotC, acrobat or assassin, as well as racial trees like HOrc or WF.

And I think you are confused, the +5 to hit bonus was always there. It is the monks full heoic BaB while fighting unarmed and centered bonus. It's not a trade.

I just need me a good macro program.

How, exactly, do you soundburst on a pure monk?

Whoa there I'm not justifying anything.



Twist it from EA.

How are heroic monks gonna be fine if you are twisting things in from an epic destiny?

Yeah, pick that Mic up and try again.

[Duhboy]

first they came for warlocks in heroic and no one spoke up so
now they have come for monks also in heroics, what a shock.

while one sits here writing one wonders after monk what class will
be next to be nerfed in heroics hmmm.

your friend sil

Barbarians got a small kick aswell. Crazy Strike no longer stacks. But yet they want to help melees. lol
They also removed the to hit to damage using wisdom for the falconry tree.

[Tilomere]

You won't hear from him, he'd get buried with actual facts. This is roughly a 25% hit on monks DPS in heroic.

25% for 2[W] = 7 means one is only swinging for 28 damage a hit at level 18?

[Selvera]

Heroic monks are fine.

First you soundburst, then cleave and great cleave with a quarterstaff, then hit WWA with handwraps, finishing stragglers and bosses with the handwraps.

This gives you the option of divine might, grace or will from the soundburst splash, and can make use of any dps tree that boosts handwraps and staff damage or adds helpless damage or cleaves or sneak damage like NiS, falconry, kensai, KotC, acrobat or assassin, as well as racial trees like HOrc or WF.

And I think you are confused, the +5 to hit bonus was always there. It is the monks full heoic BaB while fighting unarmed and centered bonus. It's not a trade.

I just need me a good macro program.

When I read this at first I thought it was someone parodying Tilo's "perfect" heroic builds for all classes.

Then I looked at the poster.

Oh,
nevermind.

[Lynnabel]

They also removed the to hit to damage using wisdom for the falconry tree.

This is not true - the first tier of Killer Instinct was erroneously granting both Hit and Damage in some situations, rather than just Hit. Now Killer Instinct I grants to hit, and Killer Instinct II grants damage.

[NXPlasmid]

This is not true - the first tier of Killer Instinct was erroneously granting both Hit and Damage in some situations, rather than just Hit. Now Killer Instinct I grants to hit, and Killer Instinct II grants damage.

Well at least someone at SSG is reading these threads. Ironically, the only response is a clarification on the PTW bird tree...(not a knock against you Lynn)

[NarutoArgo]

If your monks damage sucks after these updates its not because the class is trash, the changes are hardly that dramatic and all it does it balance it. Decent players, especially those good at monk can realize this. That being said, Removing the +2[w] from capstone and keeping the class +2.5[w] would be more balanced for heroic. But I repeat decent players can realize that if you suck after the changes it isn't because of the changes

[Chacka_DDO]

If your monks damage sucks after these updates its not because the class is trash, the changes are hardly that dramatic and all it does it balance it. Decent players, especially those good at monk can realize this. That being said, Removing the +2[w] from capstone and keeping the class +2.5[w] would be more balanced for heroic. But I repeat decent players can realize that if you suck after the changes it isn't because of the changes

Decent players know that this is obviously the wrong way to do the nerf, just only because you have at cap Handwraps with 7[1d6+3] or 5[1d6+2]there is no reason to cut down the dice by 2.5[W] for all monks, this is just not logical.
The nerf would affect monks, especially between 1-28 while it is quite obvious that the nerf addresses monks at level 29-30.
Notice that many players play their monks only until level 20 and have barely any advantage from the Shintao capstone with the 2[W].
And also notice that even if you rarely see them, there are Ninja Spy monks with handwraps which are particularly hard hit by this nerf.
Of course, you can have the opinion that it needs to cut down the dice multiplier of monks by a certain amount but to start at the Unarmed strike is the worst way to do that.
This is such a bad decision that it does not need to shy away from comparison with the horrible decision to make handwraps 7[1d6+6].

This nerf is simply not well thought out and the announcement starts with "We're here today to talk about an upcoming change coming soon..." and there was no talking about it at all.
The developers wrap themselves in silence regarding this theme.
And silence doesn't mean they know what they do, in doubt, it means that they know they are wrong and therefore they cannot give any good reason for this nerf in the way it is now on Lamannia!
Maybe they are afraid to "lose face" if they take this back but it is more embarrassing to behave like they currently do.
Many players who know what's going on here are against this, just players who defend the developers by default tell "everything is fine" and everyone who is against it is just a "whiner".
And another kind of players who think monks are too strong compared to there own favorite class cheer for any nerf for the monk class no matter how much sense it makes.

Obviously it would be wrong to call doom upon the whole monk class because of this change but in the same way is wrong to say it's alright.
My personal experience with the monk build I currently play is that the damage he did (1-26 so far) is in no way an outlier compared to other good build melees.
Of course, the monk class has other advantages before other classes but here you should rather ask for reasonable improvements, like more useful tactical feats for all melee.

So please think about it and have an open mind and don't have a fixed pre-composed opinion.

[Robbenklopper]

The loss of +2,5(w) won´t be that bad when we get back QP working as it was supposed to. Without falconry tree; applying combat mastery and "new" shiny things. That´s what compensation should be.

[NarutoArgo]

Decent players know that this is obviously the wrong way to do the nerf, just only because you have at cap Handwraps with 7[1d6+3] or 5[1d6+2]there is no reason to cut down the dice by 2.5[W] for all monks, this is just not logical.
The nerf would affect monks, especially between 1-28 while it is quite obvious that the nerf addresses monks at level 29-30.
Notice that many players play their monks only until level 20 and have barely any advantage from the Shintao capstone with the 2[W].
And also notice that even if you rarely see them, there are Ninja Spy monks with handwraps which are particularly hard hit by this nerf.
Of course, you can have the opinion that it needs to cut down the dice multiplier of monks by a certain amount but to start at the Unarmed strike is the worst way to do that.
This is such a bad decision that it does not need to shy away from comparison with the horrible decision to make handwraps 7[1d6+6].

This nerf is simply not well thought out and the announcement starts with "We're here today to talk about an upcoming change coming soon..." and there was no talking about it at all.
The developers wrap themselves in silence regarding this theme.
And silence doesn't mean they know what they do, in doubt, it means that they know they are wrong and therefore they cannot give any good reason for this nerf in the way it is now on Lamannia!
Maybe they are afraid to "lose face" if they take this back but it is more embarrassing to behave like they currently do.
Many players who know what's going on here are against this, just players who defend the developers by default tell "everything is fine" and everyone who is against it is just a "whiner".
And another kind of players who think monks are too strong compared to there own favorite class cheer for any nerf for the monk class no matter how much sense it makes.

Obviously it would be wrong to call doom upon the whole monk class because of this change but in the same way is wrong to say it's alright.
My personal experience with the monk build I currently play is that the damage he did (1-26 so far) is in no way an outlier compared to other good build melees.
Of course, the monk class has other advantages before other classes but here you should rather ask for reasonable improvements, like more useful tactical feats for all melee.

So please think about it and have an open mind and don't have a fixed pre-composed opinion.

I get the point of complaining about the heroic and other tree nerfs, which is why I said I think that just taking the capstone +2[w] from shintao is better way to go about it. With that being said, the other trees are terrible with handwraps to begin with since the passive abilities they have specifically exclude handwraps for the most part. And in heroic damage is so far above what is necessary that the nerf will be unnoticeable in the grand scheme of things you go from killing everything with one whirlwind to MAYBE having to whirlwind twice. The idea behind nerfing monks is a good one. And I say this from having played monk almost exclusively since they went live. They were far behind in damage before all the updates, but now they are too far ahead. Monks are a d8 melee class, they were never meant to be stronger, or even as strong as a fighter or barbarian in damage since they have much more utility than those. On my main ive gone through 64 monk lives as of now, and never once did I have an issue in heroics, or epics for that matter, no matter the update. I don't know if the vast majority of the monk community is just bandwagoning because they are OP right now and are getting upset because they are stopping it from being so easy button, or if they really just struggle with performing above subpar. I don't mean to be insulting, but the Devs are right on this one when they say the damage needs to be taken away.

However, I still think changing the shintao cap would be a much better decision

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Many of the classes are decently powered, people are saying that if you know how to play a monk then these changes won't hurt you and frankly I trust that.

If you are so concerned with your build being nerfed, why not make a post sharing the build you are using so people can help you flesh out an understanding on what it lacks?

If you know what it lacks, then maybe your input can be of value............

But really, your first priority is understanding everything and explaining it to others after you've confirmed that others explaining such to you isn't the answer.

[Chacka_DDO]

I get the point of complaining about the heroic and other tree nerfs, which is why I said I think that just taking the capstone +2[w] from Shintao is the better way to go about it. With that being said, the other trees are terrible with handwraps, to begin with since the passive abilities they have specifically exclude handwraps for the most part. And in heroic damage is so far above what is necessary that the nerf will be unnoticeable in the grand scheme of things you go from killing everything with one whirlwind to MAYBE having to whirlwind twice. The idea behind nerfing monks is a good one. And I say this from having played monk almost exclusively since they went live. They were far behind in damage before all the updates, but now they are too far ahead. Monks are a d8 melee class, they were never meant to be stronger, or even as strong as a fighter or barbarian in damage since they have much more utility than those. On my main I've gone through 64 monk lives as of now, and never once did I have an issue in heroics, or epics for that matter, no matter the update. I don't know if the vast majority of the monk community is just bandwagoning because they are OP right now and are getting upset because they are stopping it from being so easy button, or if they really just struggle with performing above subpar. I don't mean to be insulting, but the Devs are right on this one when they say the damage needs to be taken away.

Of course, I don't claim that a monk will be unplayable after this nerf, I play monk in DDO from day one and I played him at times when groups even denied accepting monks because they said they are too weak and they don't want them at all...
Monks got a lot of improvements since this days and yes they are strong now but how you answer the question whether they are too strong?

e.g. you claim a monk can Whirlwind attack everything in one shot, the question is in which difficulty?
I can also say in heroic a sorcerer one shot everything with one or two lighting balls if you play only elite.
And I can say that some very good Kensai builds outperformed me on a monk in heroic with kills and damage.
It is absolutely not that easy to answer if a class is that good that it demands a nerf.

And for the whirlwind, here is the question, why does this work only for centered unarmed monks as it should?
Also here silence from the developers if you ask for a fix of Whirlwind for other weapons.

And who tells you which class should be the best dps class?
Also here silence from the developers and this most likely because they have also here no plan.
If you ask players, some say monks are supposed to be superior dps in Pen and Paper and others say the fighter and barbarian are supposed to be better.

Currently, I do racial True Reincarnations but I play from 1 to 30 anyhow because I want to try out many different classes and builds.
And usually I play reaper with 3 skulls from level 1-29 and when I stay a while at the cap I play up to 10 skulls, depending on the players who join my groups (I even soloed R10 on some builds but I don't like to solo and I doubt I could do that on a monk)
So far I can tell a monk is not more an "easy button" than any other build I played in the sense of that he is an outlier in dps.
I just assume based on my estimation that level 29 will give currently a big jump in dps when can use Duality or the Morninglord's Handwraps.
And after this nerf of Unarmed Strike this jump will still remain.
My assumption is, that if the developers made a test at all, they did it only on a monk at cap and there decision is based on this.
But of course the usual wall of silence also for this information.

However, I still think changing the shintao cap would be a much better decision

As I said you can, have the opinion that a nerf is needed but if you do it the question is how?
The nerf of Unarmed Strike is, in my opinion, the worst point for several reasons I won't repeat at this point.

If you ask me, the first thing I would nerf is the Handwraps with increased weapon dice and I would not introduce such handwraps again.
Then it maybe needs to nerf the Handwraps with an improved critical profile.
If this is not enough nerfed items that give you more weapon dice multiplier, no other class has this but why monks?
Because it is a core feature of the monk class to have increasing Unarmed damage but rather than removing the core feature from the class it is more logical to remove items that increase this core feature even more and maybe too much.
If all this is still not enough, then you can nerf Shintao by lowering the 1W at 18 and 2W at 20.
And after all this and very last you can think about a nerf of Unarmed Strike.
But my feeling is that the goal of the developer of nerfing a monk at cap by ~10% is already reached when Duality is only 7[1d6+1] and the Morninglord's Handwraps 5[1d6].

[NarutoArgo]

If you ask me, the first thing I would nerf is the Handwraps with increased weapon dice and I would not introduce such handwraps again.
Then it maybe needs to nerf the Handwraps with an improved critical profile.
If this is not enough nerfed items that give you more weapon dice multiplier, no other class has this but why monks?
Because it is a core feature of the monk class to have increasing Unarmed damage but rather than removing the core feature from the class it is more logical to remove items that increase this core feature even more and maybe too much.
If all this is still not enough, then you can nerf Shintao by lowering the 1W at 18 and 2W at 20.
And after all this and very last you can think about a nerf of Unarmed Strike.
But my feeling is that the goal of the developer of nerfing a monk at cap by ~10% is already reached when Duality is only 7[1d6+1] and the Morninglord's Handwraps 5[1d6].

The benefit of nerfing the class vs. the wraps is the desire to aquire the wraps.The game is constantly struggling to achieve a desirable endgame, and making the base class strong and the acquired items weaker is counter intuitive. Having the need to the class instead of the wraps adds more fluctuation in strength through gear status and tiers of play which is how it should be. Casual Joe shouldn't be almost on par with Obessed Dave, and keeping the power in the harder to achieve wraps is more rewarding for the more top tier end game grinders. As it should be.

[Jetrule]

Like it was with warlocks over powered introduction, monks received alot of benefit after the monk pass, and with the duality hand wraps they ended up with a high level of offense and defense capability that made other classes less appealing to play. The nerfs have come down incrementally as with warlocks and I am betting monks will still be fine as are warlocks. While other classes or even other monk types arent as under preforming over all by comparison. Even heroic level monks taking a dps hit wont make them as hard to play as so many seem to fear. my bet is it ads about a percent or two of playtime to a heroic life 1-20.