Update 40 Preview 1: Raid Loot Feedback Thread

[Kza]

Yup this shows more or less what I expected the Staff of Shadows in its current version is better than the Elemental Bloom until you reach 138.5 damage bonuses in addition to the enhancement bonus if you have seeker +25 and a crit thread and multi of +1.
But if you would have another thread range increase of +1 (from LD or DC) and/or overwhelming Critical and/or Devastating Critical this would change it again and you need even more additional bonuses to make the Elemental Bloom better then the Staff of Shadows in the current version.
And if you add A Dance of Flowers and Improved Power Attack it would shift even more in favor of The Staff of Shadows.
As I said, seemingly the additional weapon dice of +6 is underestimated by players and developers until you do the calculation or you test it.

Conclusion for me is that the Staff of Shadows in its current version is not bad at all, even if some players have the feeling it is not good enough.

Aye, agreed. The staff is boring imho but to say its bad, that is wrong.

[Eelpout]

No new named kamas?

We haven't had a new named one since the Druid Chain came out...4 years ago?

Now that quarterstaff Monks and handwrap Monks have been nerfed, the concern is that kama Monks will now be King of the Hill. If they add new kamas it will only expedite the need to nerf said Monks...

[Delosari]

This thread is for feedback on both the new raid loot coming with Update 40. For full release notes on this Preview push please look here.

Cloak of the Mountain Cloak

• Insightful Charisma +9
• Spell Focus Mastery
• Spell Penetration
• Spellcast on the Run feat
• Set Bonus: While wearing this and the Bracers of the Mountain, grants exceptional 30 Acid Spell Power and 15% Acid Spell Lore, and when struck you sometimes cast Stoneskin on yourself.
• Green Augment Slot
• Yellow Augment Slot

Could I suggest a switch to +9 insigthful constitution? I understand there are not many caster items with +9 insight int/wis/char stats but I do not think there is any caster item with constitution.

Also the clouded ring penalties seem to much (the -5% mana) for a level 30 raid item. Also there are not penalties in the other items.

[Zretch]

Handbook aside, I personally consider them roughly midway between divine and arcane, in the same way that I consider Artificers midway between martial and arcane. They have a Patron rather than a Deity, and a Pact rather than a religion, but their power is still from an outside source. They may cast Arcane spells, but (especially Enlightened Spirits, who actually can use the Aura of Menace) are sorta divine enough for me to fudge them into the script :P

When will you be removing arcane spell failure from all warlock spells?

[btolson]

...

[Arkat]

So… What about the Staff of the Shadow that we've already got in the game ? Because having 2 different items under the same name is not confusing at all.

FYI...one is called "The Staff of of Shadow" and the other is called "The Staff of Shadows."

So, technically, their names are NOT the same.

I see how they can still be confusing though. Your post is proof of that.

[Magnus_Arcanis]

It's not the job of itemization to fix balance problems between weapon styles, and overpumping this would be a big mistake. Ideally, each weapon style - and weapon - is matched in DPS or utility or some niche way versus each other. If you are worried that a Quarterstaff with appropriate dice (and the bonus I'll regret adding of a bonus crit mult) is not performing well versus a greatsword, we should buff Quarterstaves as a whole, not buff THIS quarterstaff to compensate for a class/weapon style/combat technique imbalance.

If I go 20000% on this and give it some absurd crit something, and in the future we change Quarterstaves by changing Thief Acrobat or Henshin or add a universal pole-vaulting tree, then we'll have to go back and firmly smack the Staff of Shadows with 14 individual nerfs and it'll be a whole thing and they'll be 20 pages of discussion about how we hate quarterstaves and pole-vaulting and the Olympics.

Oh my. I strongly suggest that SSG re-evaluate its fundamentals. Itemization absolutely should balance weapon styles.

I mean… you COULD have classes, feats, and enhancements handle the balancing, but then all your weapons need to be basically the same and it’d a much bigger headache to add… anything to the game.

It’d be much easier and more durable to have weapons balance against each other provided that a few simple rules are maintained.

1. Each weapon should fit specific role.
Ie. Greataxes deal big crits, Greatswords crit more often. Quarterstaves are versatile in basically being two 1-handed weapons in one. So when making a new weapon, greataxes should typically be enchanted with effects that synergize with those big crits. Quartersaves should probably have up to 8 effects, but split into two roles. Like 4 for offense and 4 for spell damage. Or perhaps Defense and spell dc. Or Offense and Tactical.

Technical limitations aside of course, but we both know there are ways around that. For instance having something like, “Defensive Staff – Gain a bonus to your prr, mrr, and shield ac equal to this weapon’s enhancement bonus.” Functionally gives 3 effects for 1 slot.

Alternatively/additionally, you should at least be flavoring the enhancements to specific weapons. A good example, I’d expect to see doublestrike at higher numbers and/or more often on a quarterstaff than other two-handed options.

2. When attempting to bring a weapon closer/in line with another weapon through non-weapon means, don’t use raw pump.
Only affect weapons that are below the par you want. For example, you want Henshin Mystic’s staves to crit as hard as a Great Axe. Don’t use “Staves you wield gain a +1 to their crit multiplier.” Instead use something like, “staves with a base crit multiplier of x2 gain a +1 to their critical multiplier.” This way you don’t bloat weapons you specifically increased to an overpowered level.

3. When increasing part of a weapon’s base, don’t set the prerequisite for that bonus to different part of the base profile.
Example, “staves with base damage of 1d6 gain +1 to their critical multiplier” is a no go.

4. Never let a weapon’s base go beyond another weapon’s base unless its balanced against other outliers.
This is here to maintain balance between weapons and to make sure its not possible for a weapon type’s outliers to outpace another weapon type’s outliers when augmented with character options. Example, there should never be a staff with a x4 crit multipier. One of the things SSG thinks is a good idea right now is adding +X to a weapon’s base damage. This is dangerous, but perfectly ok in terms of balance if each type of weapon receives an option (eventually) and/or is surpassed by a superior group of weapons that are balanced.

With those rules in place, it’d be pretty hard to go wrong. Enhancement trees would now only need to be balanced against each other in terms of what they offer and now you only need to balance weapons against each other and others of its type instead of having to factor in the entire suite of character options.

Really this all comes back to having soft caps. My very strong opinion is that the biggest mistake in DDO is either never having a cap or constantly forgetting what the cap was supposed to be. Its why systems like Attack and AC needed to be changed from its d20 system to some vague percentage system. It’s the root cause of the hit point balance issues. Etc.. SSG needs to find the minimum of an attribute and then set a maximum to specific range and then only work within that range until the minimum is raised. Right now, it feels like SSG is only looking at the maximums and just keeps raising the maximum with no regard to the minimum. If there isn’t a course correction, the divide between players is only going to widen.

Anyway, hope this helps. I’m not really invested in what happens to the staff. Just reading how SSG plans to balance weapons with character options instead of weapons… felt like I needed to put in my 2 cp.

[Lynnabel]

When will you be removing arcane spell failure from all warlock spells?

Now introducing, Divine Spell Failure!

Aye, agreed. The staff is boring imho but to say its bad, that is wrong.

Close enough, I'll take it! :P

Back on non-staff topics, though, what should the rage armor do instead? Gimme suggestions!

Also, what's something cool the Chaosbow could do? I want it to be thematically chaos-aligned due to its look and origin story, but if you guys want more pizzazz I gotchu - just give me ideas

[Arkat]

Y

Conclusion for me is that the Staff of Shadows in its current version is not bad at all, even if some players have the feeling it is not good enough.

That's precisely what I want to hear a raid item to be described as - "not bad."

The Staff of Shadows must be improved and the way to do it and still keep it in tune with the "Sword of Shadows" theme is to improve the crit profile.

Earlier in this thread I suggested a crit profile of 18-20/x3 would be sufficient. After seeing the numbers published by Lynnabel and others in this thread, I have decided a 19-20/x3 crit profile would be enough to make it special enough to be a raid item, as far I am concerned.

[Arkat]

Back on non-staff topics, though, what should the rage armor do instead? Gimme suggestions!

Increase PRR & MRR (by 50?) while in a Rage?

Also, what's something cool the Chaosbow could do? I want it to be thematically chaos-aligned due to its look and origin story, but if you guys want more pizzazz I gotchu - just give me ideas

Maybe oaccasionally cause Confusion (per the spell) or Madness (similar to the Reflection of Angdreive)...2% chance?

[SerPounce]

That's precisely what I want to hear a raid item to be described as - "not bad."

The Staff of Shadows must be improved and the way to do it and still keep it in tune with the "Sword of Shadows" theme is to improve the crit profile.

Earlier in this thread I suggested a crit profile of 18-20/x3 would be sufficient. After seeing the numbers published by Lynnabel and others in this thread, I have decided a 19-20/x3 crit profile would be enough to make it special enough to be a raid item, as far I am concerned.

Alternatively if they're worried about the scaling issues involved in boosting the crit multiplier they could increase enhancement bonus dramatically. Say to +30. A nice side effect of that would be it would help out the to-hit values for staff users that probably have in general lower than usual to-hit for front line melee.

[SerPounce]

Also, what's something cool the Chaosbow could do? I want it to be thematically chaos-aligned due to its look and origin story, but if you guys want more pizzazz I gotchu - just give me ideas

Can you make an item effect that works like double rainbow/colors of the queen? Having an effect that's actually "chaotic" rather than just a chaos-typed damage would be cool.

[GramercyRiff]

Can you make an item effect that works like double rainbow/colors of the queen? Having an effect that's actually "chaotic" rather than just a chaos-typed damage would be cool.

Great suggestion. Winds of Pandemonium.

[janave]

Can you make an item effect that works like double rainbow/colors of the queen? Having an effect that's actually "chaotic" rather than just a chaos-typed damage would be cool.

Me too me too, let us shoot prismatic rays, and spray on point blank X.x

[Lynnabel]

Can you make an item effect that works like double rainbow/colors of the queen? Having an effect that's actually "chaotic" rather than just a chaos-typed damage would be cool.

I did a pseudo-colors for Fate - the deck of Tarokka cards from Ravenloft - and it took me a million years and still doesn't work. Compound "pick one of n" effects on weapons are way too complicated to push together properly

I love the suggestion, though, seriously.

[Arkat]

Alternatively if they're worried about the scaling issues involved in boosting the crit multiplier they could increase enhancement bonus dramatically. Say to +30. A nice side effect of that would be it would help out the to-hit values for staff users that probably have in general lower than usual to-hit for front line melee.

That's not unreasonable considering the Epic Sword of Shadow was a +10 enhancement item in an era when +6 was the best enhancement bonus you could get on other level 20 epic weapons.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Back on non-staff topics, though, what should the rage armor do instead? Gimme suggestions!

The nullmagic armor PRR should be insightful. What is the armor bonus? Its not listed anywhere, and no one has posted a screenie of it.

[Lynnabel]

That's not unreasonable considering the Epic Sword of Shadow was a +10 enhancement item in an era when +6 was the best enhancement bonus you could get on other level 20 epic weapons.

It would take a lot of work to implement due to how much weird stuff is attached to Enhancement bonuses, but this is something we did discuss. Would +18 be flavourful enough?

[Magnus_Arcanis]

Now introducing, Divine Spell Failure!



Close enough, I'll take it! :P

Back on non-staff topics, though, what should the rage armor do instead? Gimme suggestions!

Also, what's something cool the Chaosbow could do? I want it to be thematically chaos-aligned due to its look and origin story, but if you guys want more pizzazz I gotchu - just give me ideas

While raging suggestions.
- Immunity to Stun and/or Knockdown Effects.
- Immunity to Knockback effects would be super interesting.
- Regen action boosts
- Regen rage uses.
- Chance to reset the duration
- Emit a fear-like aura the reduces enemy melee (ranged and/or spell) power.

Chaotic suggestions
- Chance to proc an Enervation effect.
- Haven’t had a curse spewing weapon in a while.
- Chance to have projectile damage a nearby enemy(s). (kind of like chain lightning)
- Temporarily suppress a target’s DR.
- Or since it's tied to maralith.... maybe a chance for the weapon to deal 6x its damage.

[Arkat]

It would take a lot of work to implement due to how much weird stuff is attached to Enhancement bonuses, but this is something we did discuss. Would +18 be flavourful enough?

It's certainly flavorful but does it make up for what would be lost with a plain old 20/x3 crit profile? I doubt it. I thought SerPounce made a pretty good argument for a +30 enhancement bonus. How much higher than +18 could you go and still avoid an overly weird amount of Enhancement bonus stuff issues?