U40: Unarmed Strike Change

[Arkat]

[Spl1tz]

#RevampTRcache!

[PsychoBlonde]

Yeah, I don't see much point in messing with monks at this point. They're not an extreme DPS outlier since Duality was fixed. This change is minor enough that I don't think it's worth ****ing people off to make it.

Bards and Paladins could use some tweaks, and of course Sorcerer and Wizard still need class enhancement passes.

I'd also like for you to clean up the epic destinies that are and have been really garbage for a long time now.

[Iriale]

Another change that moves this game even more from pnp? Please no

What if instead of nerfs you finish the class passes, you improve the EDs that desperately need a pass, you make a much needed revision to the spells (do you know how many are directly useless and how many do not scale well in epics?), and also improve also the tactical feats of the melees, who are in dire need of a revision?

It is not as if there was no work pending.

And instead of nerf unarmed combat, how about you do viable the other monk combat styles? Because they are currently bad

[zehnvhex]

@Steelstar

Just for the sake of the community, could you give some insight into how the data for decisions such as these are obtained? My imagination is that you probably have some sort of logging server side to record the damage players do that you could perform analysis on. But others might imagine that you get your data from internal play tests, or watching people play on twitch, or from whatever. We just don't know.

Same way we do it.

They spawn static mobs with X amount of health, build a character and then see how long it takes to beat them up and then do the math. Near as we know, there's no support for any kind of external logging available in game and I doubt they have the capacity to build something like that given how hands-off they are in regards to any sort of UI elements (IE: Public Group Finder has been been broken since elite streaks became a thing and they've yet to fix it).

While they probably aren't as good at it as some of the best builders in the community, they can get reasonably close to it. Sometimes they say things that makes no sense (Steelstar defending the racial nuke that dark elves get by saying "Free DPS is always good right?"), but by and large they can get ballpark figures down.

My hope is that this all leads to a 'bigger picture' thing in the future. If we can get melee dps in line with ranged/spell caster dps, then we can see them push more things through to make melee dps safer other than a poorly implemented HP buff.

That is to say, when top blaster casters can get within 10% or so of top melee builds, maybe we can see more options open up so that melee aren't such a liability without a hard tank and CC. Right now DPS casters are useless outside of running TR's (of which they are arguably king), so giving melee better CC options would be a rich get richer scenario.

We've been getting hints of a caster revamp, so hopefully they're establishing a baseline they want DPS to do with melee, then bring casters/ranged up to that baseline, then adjust reaper/grouping mechanics so that melee can more reliably do that dps and casters are more than FoD/Otto/Hold bots.

One can hope at least.

I mean the more likely thing is Sev spun the 'What should I tell people to do today?' wheel in his office and it landed on 'nerf monks'.

[GramercyRiff]

I like most of the posts in this thread. It makes a ton of sense to me.

Fix the stuff that needs fixing; there's a lot that needs fixing aka Freedom of Movement. I don't even play Monk, so this doesn't affect me, but I got feels for those that do. Keep Monk the way it is.

[Engoril]

We're here today to talk about an upcoming change coming soon (likely Update 40). A few years ago, we converted Handwraps from being non-weapon equippable items into actual weapons - A change that allowed a large number of effects and abilities to start working with Handwraps as they do other weapons. In that process, we also brought over most of the existing features meant to help Handwrap DPS be equivalent with that of other weapon types. As part of our continued balance pass on Melees, it has become clear that Handwrap Monks are still an outlier in terms of DPS. When compared to other Melees (and even other Monks), Handwrap Monks still deal substantially more damage than other similar builds with similar gear. This is, in part, due to an increased number of Weapon Dice while wielding Handwraps. In retrospect, the buffs they got in the transition to being "real" weapons made the additional damage dice much less necessary.

If you are just looking at DPS then you are failing to properly balance any class, let alone monks. There is more to each class than just their DPS. Monks have weak MRR and that is noticeably a problem in higher end content compared to say the MRR that a fighter gets. I have both a level 30 Kensai Fighter and Shintao Monk. The fighter might have slightly less DPS than the monk but the fighter is also noticeable tougher when it comes to taking damage from all sources, apart from evadeable damage.

To correct this, we are changing the innate Unarmed Strike feat that Monks get every 4 levels to grant +1 to Attack while using Handwraps instead of 0.5[w]. This reduction (a total of 2.5[w] for pure Monks) brings Unarmed Monks much closer to other High-DPS Melee builds of similar gear. The overall reduction in DPS will depend highly on build and gear; the average we're seeing is about a 10% drop on a capped Pure 20 Monk.

You are removing a signature ability from what Monk's did in PnP. Originally DDO had the proper unarmed progression of damage dice: D4, D6, D8, D10, D12, 2D10. My memory may be incorrect about the actual damage steps, but the dice steps were a key feature that made monks different. You got rid of that after a few years and replaced it with +0.5[W] steps which was sort of acceptable. Now though you are going to throw it away? Just to make the monk work the same as every other melee? That's just crazy (and boring) in my eyes. If you wanted to knock 10% off their DPS there are more subtle ways you could have chosen rather than removing one of the big things that makes the class different.

[Amundir]

Same way we do it.

They spawn static mobs with X amount of health, build a character and then see how long it takes to beat them up and then do the math. Near as we know, there's no support for any kind of external logging available in game and I doubt they have the capacity to build something like that given how hands-off they are in regards to any sort of UI elements (IE: Public Group Finder has been been broken since elite streaks became a thing and they've yet to fix it).

Did you hear that directly from a dev, or is that what you imagine they do, like I imagine they do it the other way? If it's not directly from them, I'm asking for some details straight from the horses mouth about their process. Not granular details about it, but just an idea of how they do it.

[lLockehart]

Haaaaaaaum, I think I'm okay'ish with this.

Historically, Monk has always been a devious class in comparison with everything else. I think the main premise was supposed to be something along the lines of a disabler with high survivability that can go in, disable the caster or (more recently added) champions and get out. It's very hard to translate the core premise of what they are in PnP, especially 3.5 to our action paced engine and I much rather it work as a stand alone class within our own game.

The implementation though, is pretty tricky and I think it's easy to fall into wrong balance configurations, even if you're trying to seriously work well on the class since Monk has the whole package of evading damage, good Dps with Helpless attached to it which is the most used strategy by far, it's flexible and it's the prime target for the recent 25% Hp buff. It's easy to let things go off the rails with a class that's supposed to be so good in what's currently optimal in the game so the balance falls within the ratios which are hard to track down.

I don't think it'll be a 10% loss of Dps, especially with higher weaponry that feature [W]dX + Y. Coupled with things like Whirlwind attacks, buffs, melee power, damage argumentation like helpless, 5% from gear fury, etc, it'll be a good, solid blow to a damage output that does have its peers with Tempest and Rogue. I also think adding +1 Attack is just rubbing salt on the wound, may as well be +3-5 Attack to capitalize on the need to land blows with Monk's special attacks and offset the damage drop a little at end game where to-hit really starts to matter and the damage drop is most felt.

I'd much rather buff everything else to an acceptable baseline but I understand that it would be an extended and labour heavy endeavour. However... I do think a trade off has to be implemented somehow, if not an higher Attack bonus, then something else ~

With that said, I think I'm okay with the change or rather, the attempt at ironing the class. I trust tests are done with an optimal build and a capped lvl 30 Character because anything short of that would be tragically sad, I'm sure there's plenty of people in the forums to help with that if it's needed.

[janave]

While I agree that handwrap monks outperform other monks; this is partially a problem with the other monk enhancement trees: Ninja spy doesn't really offer very much and dark-monk finishing moves suck. Henshins are rather lackluster since the melee power nerf. And whirlwind attack only works effectively with handwraps. If whirlwind attack; dark monk finishers and ninja spy/henshin were tweaked a bit; monk vs monk balance would be much better.

In terms of monk vs other classes; Capricorpus says it; their dps (after the duality nerf which was needed) isn't higher then what other classes can output; but it is certainly still pretty strong, especially considering the defenses and CC they can bring to the table. I'm not against the idea of a 10% endgame-monk dps nerf; but I don't agree that removing unarmed strike is the right way to do it. It's a class feature which makes monks unique as a class and draws from pnp in a fairly faithful way. +1 to hit is laughably useless.

This is spot on, Monk to Monk lack balance due to Ninja and Henshin are weak and the best perks are easily accessible for Shintaos too.
It would be nice to disconnect them from the current stereotype, shuriken and staff only build is really boring.

[DrawingGuy]

*snip*

Sooo much info missing from this (what are their enhancements, feats, gear?), and so many build options also not listed here. I've played hundreds of builds, many of which were post monk-pass, and I've had many beat out my Monk. There is also the consideration of multiple target DPS. A ranger can apply its top-tier DPS to 4x targets 66% of the time, wolves/bears get cleaves with offhand strikes, warlocks can hit entire groups with every attack, etc). Monk is not the top DPS, and its posts like yours performed in a vacuum of single target only in an extremely narrow scope missing millions of options and factors... and of course posted repeatedly that the devs seem to latch onto.

Though while your post is not why I'm replying, the devs seem to be testing under the same conditions. Tunnel visioned DPS testing that misses many other factors and build options, since if they think handwrap DPS beats out everything by "substantially more", they are definitely missing things.

I am also wholeheartedly against going yet another step away from what is a core PnP feature: scaling unarmed damage as you level. Destroying a core feature should be an absolutely last resort. If nerfing monks is indeed the game priority over many other important things (TR cache, bug fixes, improving THF, class passes, epic destiny passes, actual new content), there are better ways to do it. Get rid of the Improved Martial Arts feat, or scale it back to .5[W] for handwraps. You can also get rid of Reinforced Fist items. Changes like that will achieve the heavy handed 2.5[W] nerf without destroying a core D&D mechanic. Simply just flip Reinforced Fist to Enhanced Ki (+1 for regular reinforced, +2 for greater, +3 for superior), and gear that has both either stack it or just replace it with something else (though Sun Soul gear getting +2 would be fitting). Keeping +[W] gear (as well as Imp Martial Arts if it is deemed further nerfs are needed) but getting rid of core mechanics simply doesn't make sense to me. And doing a change like I suggested would at least give the silver lining of lifting the requirement for me to always be in Fire stance to afford ki moves in heroics due to more access to enhanced ki (something I've always wanted).

[Eelpout]

I am fairly certain the nerfs will continue until all Monk players promise to be purely Kama builds who only put points in the Henshen Mystic tree...

[UurlockYgmeov]

I miss the ability to walk on water.

[J1NG]

Not directly related. But Handwraps realted I guess. With the changes to Handwraps damage coming in U40, is the Epic Feat: Vorpal Strikes going to get it's correct functionality for Handwraps for U40 then?

Right now:
Epic Feat: Vorpal Strikes
Unarmed gains Slashing Damage Type for bypass, and gains Vorpal property for instakill on 20 if less than x amount of damage.
Handwraps gains Slashing Damage Type for bypass.
Handwraps do NOT gain Vorpal property for instakill on 20 if less than x amount of damage.

Will the Feat be "fixed" to include the Vorpal property on Handwraps since unarmed damage is being tweaked? Because according to Lynnabel, this was "fixed" back in 2016. Which is only partially correct. The Fix gave us what I desribed above. Handwraps do not get the Vorpal effect property. Hence, still not working correctly.

Unless the Devs want to confirm that Vorpal Strikes should not be working for Handwraps?

J1NG

[JP457]

If monks are so OP, why is it I never see them in groups leading the kill counts? Instead I see tempests, kensais, etc.

If balance is so important why aren't you actually balancing things?

I think you just don't listen to your player community and don't know how your own game actually works. This is blatantly demonstrated every time I see one of your live streams.

[PsychoBlonde]

I miss the ability to walk on water.

Some water. There were large parts of the game where it didn't work right.

[Epicstorms]

Oh please, monk is already not the best DPS in-game after you nerfed it over and over.

I still play a monk and like to have a bit more survivability and CC, while trading in some DPS compared to other build choices.

Now you nerf it again? Come on ... -_-

Time to TR out of monk I guess -_- thanks

[noobodyfool]

Haaaaaaaum, I think I'm okay'ish with this.

Historically, Monk has always been a devious class in comparison with everything else. I think the main premise was supposed to be something along the lines of a disabler with high survivability that can go in, disable the caster or (more recently added) champions and get out. It's very hard to translate the core premise of what they are in PnP, especially 3.5 to our action paced engine and I much rather it work as a stand alone class within our own game.

The implementation though, is pretty tricky and I think it's easy to fall into wrong balance configurations, even if you're trying to seriously work well on the class since Monk has the whole package of evading damage, good Dps with Helpless attached to it which is the most used strategy by far, it's flexible and it's the prime target for the recent 25% Hp buff. It's easy to let things go off the rails with a class that's supposed to be so good in what's currently optimal in the game so the balance falls within the ratios which are hard to track down.

I don't think it'll be a 10% loss of Dps, especially with higher weaponry that feature [W]dX + Y. Coupled with things like Whirlwind attacks, buffs, melee power, damage argumentation like helpless, 5% from gear fury, etc, it'll be a good, solid blow to a damage output that does have its peers with Tempest and Rogue. I also think adding +1 Attack is just rubbing salt on the wound, may as well be +3-5 Attack to capitalize on the need to land blows with Monk's special attacks and offset the damage drop a little at end game where to-hit really starts to matter and the damage drop is most felt.

I'd much rather buff everything else to an acceptable baseline but I understand that it would be an extended and labour heavy endeavour. However... I do think a trade off has to be implemented somehow, if not an higher Attack bonus, then something else ~

With that said, I think I'm okay with the change or rather, the attempt at ironing the class. I trust tests are done with an optimal build and a capped lvl 30 Character because anything short of that would be tragically sad, I'm sure there's plenty of people in the forums to help with that if it's needed.

All this means is they will all go falcon and pick-up 15%-20% so it really its a buff of 13.5%-17.5% go falcon/aasimar

[Thar]

If monks are so OP, why is it I never see them in groups leading the kill counts? Instead I see tempests, kensais, etc.

If balance is so important why aren't you actually balancing things?

I think you just don't listen to your player community and don't know how your own game actually works. This is blatantly demonstrated every time I see one of your live streams.

I see the opposite on sarlona. Most of end game raids on reaper are 50% monk. That being said, the nerf isn't going to make us run a pally instead as they are still 1/2 the dps.

that being said i still have an issue with this. and i don't currently have a punchmonk,

1) this is a core part of the class that martial damage increases from 1d4 at start to 1d20 at lvl 20. This isn't implementable in ddo so the +w was added.
2) they were just nerfed and we are doing another one like a few months later? bad decision and design. put better weapons in the game for other classes, better feats/enhancements for s/b, dual weap, etc. the new tree just buffed monks... with a non class tree... why you'd remove class abilities doesn't add up.
3) monks should have dps as they should take a beating not wearing armor. so armor and shield should be more defensive value if monks are the best option.
4) grandmaster of flowers is a horrible ED tree.

[lLockehart]

I miss the ability to walk on water.

I will totally seize your post and hijack the thread to express how much I also miss this quirky little ability.

But first... I see a lot of people complain about the departure from 3.5 Pnp mechanics and I truly don't get it, this game has almost nothing to do with PnP - mechanics wise and the things that we do share with it, gradually hold us back, more and more. If we handn't introduced scaling mechanics like Spellpower, PRR and the like, it would have been impossible to continue, even with a strong horizontal progression but regardless of that, even when the game launched in 2006, it was still a far cry from most PnP driven games seeing our action paced engine and I think that's one of our strongest points, it's why it's so fun to melee about or spellcast in real time. The beauty in our game is how we translate the mechanics and lore into it, not copy pasting things for the sake of it.

Even in most player handbooks, the strongest point to be made is that it's a game driven by imagination and the flexibility of a GM is key, following the book's rules and mechanics is a strong 2nd. I digress however but I will digress even more! for all the people looking for a more traditional PnP fix and aren't unwilling to play actual DnD online or can't afford to have time to go by a store and play a couple hours per session... it's a good time to be alive - there's a bunch of good PnP driven games with the likes of Pillars of eternity 1 and 2, Divinity: original Sin, even things like Wasteland or... even Darkest dungeon will yield a better time if you're looking for that particular feel. Feel free to google them or browse GoG, it's a pretty marketplace.

But let's talk game and that's Water walking! it was useless, complete garbage, a real waste of AP save for.... that one raid featuring our old friend the Abbot and man, did it feel awesome there... and everywhere else really. It's an utility that really empowers flavour, something we're so lacking now and I never really understood why it was taken out, the code was in place... why leave it out? We need, we must have more flavour driven utility abilities like these and whenever they do come in handy, it really shines and it's such a treat to the game, hgggn!