Why don't these 'immunities' work?!?

[Bluenoser]

Well, another evening of unfulfilling play due to too many deaths that only happened because my so-called immunities don't seem to do much. Top of the list: paralysis from drow poison. Yes, I know it's **magic** poison so my venom immunity doesn't work--frankly, haven't found much it does work against--but if it's **magic** that causes paralysis, why doesn't my FOM prevent it? That's called having your cake and eating it too, DDO.

Next up, Four Legs Good from Nature's Warrior tree, which has the wonderful weasel-word descriptor "You ignore *most* effects that would knock you down." "Most" should mean that it works against more things than it doesn't. So far, in wolf stances it only seems to work against air elementals (and maybe the trip attack?), but does squat-all against dragons and drider webs. Why not just make this an absolute immunity and call it a day?

Finally, if I get slowed one more time by Gust of Wind when I have FOM active (not to mention the "Permanent Haste" feat which should make Slow impossible), I'm gonna lose my mind. That one is especially irritating because you can't just quaff a haste pot to clear it while you're using rage from the Nature's Protector tree, and maps that feature it spam the bejeebus out of it. I've given up on SPELLwards ever being fixed in this regard, but a spell actually cast by an enemy caster? Come on, this should be an easy fix. #MakeFOMGreatAgain

[blerkington]

This gets on my nerves too.

Several methods of removing or avoiding slow effects don't seem to be working right now. In particular, FoM should prevent it altogether as per the spell description and Remove Paralysis potions should remove it too, but they don't now. I'm not sure what's going on with haste as a counterspell - potions and clickies don't seem to work now but the spell from a high level caster does.

I don't know if this is the result of one or more bugs or a deliberate chipping away at how these immunities/remedies work. If it's the latter, that seems like a really crummy direction to take. I'd much rather see new debuff effects be created than old ones altered so they don't work the way they should. The first path seems like the acme of lazy and unimaginative DMing.

It feels a lot like what happened with poison immunity around the time of MOTU. For a long time it was pretty much only available through spells and rare crafted item, then suddenly it was on all sorts of random loot and easy to make with cannith crafting, then we were told some nonsense about what a big problem the fact that everyone had poison immunity was for game balance so it had to be changed, then fast forward and long lasting poison immunity potions are being sold in the store. Not cool. Not cool at all.

Thanks.

[cru121]

then fast forward and long lasting poison immunity potions are being sold in the store. Not cool. Not cool at all.Thanks.

To be fair, imho they simply forgot that those potions exist and therefore didn't nerf them.

[blerkington]

To be fair, imho they simply forgot that those potions exist and therefore didn't nerf them.

That is a very charitable explanation.

The thing is, those potions literally serve no purpose other than providing an extended period of poison immunity. I don't think they were available in 2012 and don't expect to see them removed from the store anytime soon.

Thanks.

[Annex]

DDO went down a very strange design path in this respect. In most role playing games, characters possess a very limited number of cures and 'breakout' skills, typically on long timers. A player must use them very wisely in more difficult battles or risk serious consequences.

DDO challenges players with all the usual suspects--holds, paralysis, slows, damage over time effects, and so forth--but then offers easy access to cures and prevention items for practically everything. As a result, players can laugh off special attacks that would force critical decisions in other games.

This easy access to cures and prevention items severely limits the ways developers can challenge player characters so they pretty obviously created a bunch of house rules to liven things up. Players then complain about the house rules. The developers respond with better cures and prevention items, realize they constrain challenge options, and along come a new batch of house rules. Round and round we go, arriving at the very convoluted system in place today.

The developers could make all cures and prevention items work 'properly' but that would result in a very bland and uninteresting game. Yanking easy access to cures and prevention items would trigger a gigagigantic player uproar. Therefore, I strongly anticipate house rules will remain in place.

[blerkington]

This easy access to cures and prevention items severely limits the ways developers can challenge player characters so they pretty obviously created a bunch of house rules to liven things up.

This is just the reformulation of an excuse for what they appear to be doing, not an argument with any substance. There's nothing inevitable about having to use this approach and no reason why this issue couldn't have been handled differently.

SSG appears to be taking the path of weakening protections again, like we've seen happen before. But what they could do instead is add conditions that aren't covered by existing remedies and immunities. Using the example of other MMOs, there is a huge library of debuffs available in other games that aren't covered by our existing protections.

Additionally, DDO already has a selection of debuffs for which there is no immunity or remedy. They can also be used if needed. The lower tier debuffs, for which there are immunities and remedies, still play the role of encouraging a certain level of preparedness and may also influence build and gearing choices.

Lastly, claiming house rules are needed to preserve challenge makes even less sense when immunities are being sold in the store. If there was actually any truth to those excuses, we shouldn't be getting sold work-arounds like these potions and the aasimar healing ability.

Because that would completely undermine the game design reasons for reducing our protections as well as debuffed and short range healing in harder content, wouldn't it? Unless game rules are specifically being designed now to sell store products rather than for a fair, logical, consistent and enjoyable playing experience ...

Thanks.

[wraxzz]

DDO went down a very strange design path in this respect. In most role playing games, characters possess a very limited number of cures and 'breakout' skills, typically on long timers. A player must use them very wisely in more difficult battles or risk serious consequences.

DDO challenges players with all the usual suspects--holds, paralysis, slows, damage over time effects, and so forth--but then offers easy access to cures and prevention items for practically everything. As a result, players can laugh off special attacks that would force critical decisions in other games.

This easy access to cures and prevention items severely limits the ways developers can challenge player characters so they pretty obviously created a bunch of house rules to liven things up. Players then complain about the house rules. The developers respond with better cures and prevention items, realize they constrain challenge options, and along come a new batch of house rules. Round and round we go, arriving at the very convoluted system in place today.

The developers could make all cures and prevention items work 'properly' but that would result in a very bland and uninteresting game. Yanking easy access to cures and prevention items would trigger a gigagigantic player uproar. Therefore, I strongly anticipate house rules will remain in place.

In retrospect, broken items and effects results in a very bland and uninteresting game to begin with. The highlighted portion makes me think of ragdolls in games- just because its surprising to see ragdoll blown into outer space from opening a car door into it, may be funny to see the first few times, but it becomes very repetitive and frustrating if it impedes implied progress because you just sent your taxi fare to outer space (implied referring to effects and items working as intended).

[Annex]

This is just the reformulation of an excuse for what they appear to be doing, not an argument with any substance. There's nothing inevitable about having to use this approach and no reason why this issue couldn't have been handled differently.

You use the word 'excuse' a lot. To me, an excuse is an apology or an attempt to escape blame. The original poster submitted a question and I provided my best guess at the answer. I did not attempt to apologize for the DDO developers or defend them from any blame. I did not attempt to make a normative argument offering my opinion on what the developers should do. I simply stated what I think happened and why.

SSG appears to be taking the path of weakening protections again, like we've seen happen before. But what they could do instead is add conditions that aren't covered by existing remedies and immunities. Using the example of other MMOs, there is a huge library of debuffs available in other games that aren't covered by our existing protections.

I do not disagree with you! I am a bit baffled that monsters in DDO, especially boss type monsters, do not use a much wider variety of special attacks that require player characters to jump in and out of engagement range, avoid zones of damage, perform special actions to render a target vulnerable, and so forth.

The developers do face a problem in this regard. If they choose to create new dungeons with more challenging and engaging boss monster behaviors, older dungeons remain 'flat' and 'boring'. They can go back and make manual changes to each monster type, perhaps adding new attacks, but that requires manually updating each monster. Making a blanket change to player character defenses alters the offense versus defense equation at relatively low cost in developer hours.

Again, I am not offering an excuse. I am not apologizing for the DDO developers or attempting to remove blame for something they did. I am offering my opinion on why these things happen the way they happen. I am on record, many times, asking for more boss type encounters, more interesting monster behaviors, and more diverse tactics for characters. I think we get blanket changes because they are cheap.

Additionally, DDO already has a selection of debuffs for which there is no immunity or remedy. They can also be used if needed. The lower tier debuffs, for which there are immunities and remedies, still play the role of encouraging a certain level of preparedness and may also influence build and gearing choices.

Well, there is the rub. DDO offers wonderful progression, with almost every negative affect countered by some build choice or potion or protective item or spell. If a player character gathers up all those defenses, most monsters lose their threatening nature. The developers have a choice. They can leverage monster attacks that bypass all existing defenses or they can make some blanket change to reduce the defenses. I am of the opinion the latter is cheaper and results in a more diverse array of dangerous monster attacks so the developers keep going that route. I could most certainly be wrong.

Lastly, claiming house rules are needed to preserve challenge makes even less sense when immunities are being sold in the store. If there was actually any truth to those excuses, we shouldn't be getting sold work-arounds like these potions and the aasimar healing ability.

Because that would completely undermine the game design reasons for reducing our protections as well as debuffed and short range healing in harder content, wouldn't it? Unless game rules are specifically being designed now to sell store products rather than for a fair, logical, consistent and enjoyable playing experience ...

I do not see the desire to make a game more exciting on the cheap and the desire to generate revenue by selling a way around that 'excitement' as lacking sense. I see it as a ruthless business decision.

We could debate if all this was the 'right' way to design DDO. We could have a discussion about the DDO revenue model and how it impacts, "fair, logical, consistent and enjoyable playing experience". In truth, I am not really interested in having that discussion yet again because I find it very depressing and I sincerely doubt it will change anything.

[lyrecono]

Well, another evening of unfulfilling play due to too many deaths that only happened because my so-called immunities don't seem to do much. Top of the list: paralysis from drow poison. Yes, I know it's **magic** poison so my venom immunity doesn't work--frankly, haven't found much it does work against--but if it's **magic** that causes paralysis, why doesn't my FOM prevent it? That's called having your cake and eating it too, DDO.

Next up, Four Legs Good from Nature's Warrior tree, which has the wonderful weasel-word descriptor "You ignore *most* effects that would knock you down." "Most" should mean that it works against more things than it doesn't. So far, in wolf stances it only seems to work against air elementals (and maybe the trip attack?), but does squat-all against dragons and drider webs. Why not just make this an absolute immunity and call it a day?

Finally, if I get slowed one more time by Gust of Wind when I have FOM active (not to mention the "Permanent Haste" feat which should make Slow impossible), I'm gonna lose my mind. That one is especially irritating because you can't just quaff a haste pot to clear it while you're using rage from the Nature's Protector tree, and maps that feature it spam the bejeebus out of it. I've given up on SPELLwards ever being fixed in this regard, but a spell actually cast by an enemy caster? Come on, this should be an easy fix. #MakeFOMGreatAgain

Have you tried getting your saves up? (As a frontline melee i rarely get paralized, so the enourmes fort save might be the reason.)
Did you know that a poison augment or parrying enh stacks with the resistance bonus to your saves?

Did you know that guild pots do work when raged? They sell 30 second haste pots

[cru121]

That is a very charitable explanation.

The thing is, those potions literally serve no purpose other than providing an extended period of poison immunity. I don't think they were available in 2012 and don't expect to see them removed from the store anytime soon.

Thanks.

You are demonstrably wrong.

Lasting potions of neutralize poison were available in the DDO Store as early as January 2010.
http://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=D...ng&oldid=43471

[blerkington]

You are demonstrably wrong.

Lasting potions of neutralize poison were available in the DDO Store as early as January 2010.
http://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=D...ng&oldid=43471

That's a good bit of research. Well done. The problem is, it doesn't really change anything about this situation at all. My argument certainly doesn't hinge upon those potions not being available before 2012, because by some fortunate coincidence the usefulness of this otherwise almost useless item significantly increased at the point of the rules change.

I don't agree with your characterisation of my concerns as paranoid. Poison immunity items were in the game, then we were told this immunity had to be removed. Except those who were prepared to pay for that immunity could still have it. If you can find a developer post specifically addressing the issue of these store bought potions and how they fit in with their revised ideas about balance and challenge that would make for some very interesting reading.

Given that you seem to be claiming the explanation is a simple oversight, are you expecting these potions to be removed from the store or the way they work to be changed? Or would you be prepared to consider the much more plausible theory that by being advertised to us recently by means of a free sample, the company hasn't just forgotten about this product, the product is actually working as intended, and will continue to be sold?

This is one of those areas where I am surprised SSG has people defending it. But this being these forums, there are always those who want to create doubt about the obvious and present implausible rationalisations for why SSG should not be criticised for its bad decisions. The problem is, the more tolerant the community is of behaviour like this, the more grasping and opportunistic I think the people making these decisions will become. It's like inviting them to take advantage of their customers.

Thanks.

[Tilomere]

Have you tried getting your saves up?

There is no save. Pre-drink neutralize poison potions so the removal of a poison every tick will remove it fairly soon after it is applied.

[cru121]

That's a good bit of research. Well done. The problem is, it doesn't really change anything about this situation at all. My argument certainly doesn't hinge upon those potions not being available before 2012, because by some fortunate coincidence the usefulness of this otherwise almost useless item significantly increased at the point of the rules change.

I don't agree with your characterisation of my concerns as paranoid. Poison immunity items were in the game, then we were told this immunity had to be removed. Except those who were prepared to pay for that immunity could still have it. If you can find a developer post specifically addressing the issue of these store bought potions and how they fit in with their revised ideas about balance and challenge that would make for some very interesting reading.

Given that you seem to be claiming the explanation is a simple oversight, are you expecting these potions to be removed from the store or the way they work to be changed? Or would you be prepared to consider the much more plausible theory that by being advertised to us recently by means of a free sample, the company hasn't just forgotten about this product, the product is actually working as intended, and will continue to be sold?

This is one of those areas where I am surprised SSG has people defending it. But this being these forums, there are always those who want to create doubt about the obvious and present implausible rationalisations for why SSG should not be criticised for its bad decisions. The problem is, the more tolerant the community is of behaviour like this, the more grasping and opportunistic I think the people making these decisions will become. It's like inviting them to take advantage of their customers.

Thanks.

Hush hush, someone post this breaking news to the TOP SECRET section of the Vault, right next to the duping of otto's boxes and infinite astral shards:

LASTING NEUTRALIZE POISON potions last for full 10 minutes! The HORROR!!

1) It was a useless item before. It is slightly less useless now. So that should actually be a good news.

2) The poison immunity systems change was probably done by some person who didn't have a clue about what's sold in DDO Store.

3) I don't expect that lasting potions of neutralize poison are removed. If this things bothers you, file a bug report. PM this to Cordo as an exploit. Ask Lynnabel to reduce the duration.

I hope that the product is working just as it is described in the DDO Store. I think it will continue to be sold.

I also do think that if Lasting Potions of Neutralize Poison are completely irrelevant. Literally noone cares. Even with their 10 min duration, noone buys them. The impact on anything is zero.

The DDO Store is full of traps. Have a useless potion overperform mildly is a good news. Noone's gonna buy em anyway.

[blerkington]

stuff

The issue here is that functionality is being reduced or removed from the game and then being sold back to us.

It didn't just occur in this case, it is becoming part of a pattern. If that doesn't bother you, fine. It does bother me.

Take care.

[Bluenoser]

Have you tried getting your saves up? (As a frontline melee i rarely get paralized, so the enourmes fort save might be the reason.)
Did you know that a poison augment or parrying enh stacks with the resistance bonus to your saves?

Did you know that guild pots do work when raged? They sell 30 second haste pots

Well, I went max STR on my druid to up my combat DCs (paying off with good CC even in reaper, until I get death by cheese), so I couldn't do a max con build. But, I have plenty of base con (and +5 tome) and good item bonuses, as well as good resistance items (and 3x Brace EPL feat). But that's the irritation--as a druid, my feats and spells should be helping to compensate for the lower con and saves generally. They aren't.

Thanks for the tip about the guild pots--just tested it, and you're absolutely right. That said, the fact I've played this game compulsively for over 8 years and didn't know that suggests there's a bit of a DDO communication problem. Gotta admit, it's pretty darn goofy that those pots behave differently!

[gwonbush]

Well, I went max STR on my druid to up my combat DCs (paying off with good CC even in reaper, until I get death by cheese), so I couldn't do a max con build. But, I have plenty of base con (and +5 tome) and good item bonuses, as well as good resistance items (and 3x Brace EPL feat). But that's the irritation--as a druid, my feats and spells should be helping to compensate for the lower con and saves generally. They aren't.

Thanks for the tip about the guild pots--just tested it, and you're absolutely right. That said, the fact I've played this game compulsively for over 8 years and didn't know that suggests there's a bit of a DDO communication problem. Gotta admit, it's pretty darn goofy that those pots behave differently!

It's because you can use non-guild pots on others, while you can only use guild pots on yourself. Since you can use it on others, it is coded as if it were a spell cast, which is blocked by rage.

[Bluenoser]

It's because you can use non-guild pots on others, while you can only use guild pots on yourself. Since you can use it on others, it is coded as if it were a spell cast, which is blocked by rage.

Actually, you raise another major irritant for me lately--regular potions *used* to be useable on others from the hotbar, if you were right next to them. But my cure wounds pots don't work that way anymore, and haven't for a long time, despite the fact their descriptions still say they can target "Friend, Self, Undead Foe". Notably, the guild cure wounds pots also say that. Also, the description on many other guild pots (lesser restore, cure disease, remove curse) explicitly say they can be used on others.

Found yet another knockdown effect Four Legs Good doesn't work against tonight--hill giants in the house cannith challenges (Time is Money). Maybe change the description from "most effects" to "some, but don't bet on it"?

[slarden]

long lasting poison immunity potions are being sold in the store.

Thanks for the tip! I didn't realize. Honestly there is nothing to spend VIP points on I am glad I found something I can use.

It seems my monk diamond body helps against poisons quite a bit, but not racial or class immunities.