Echo of Wave clickie ends if you unequp

[Niminae]

Part of me really wishes all Clickies worked like that [where the effect goes away if the item is unequipped], but I'm pretty sure you guys would revolt if that were the case.

Level 4 new-ish player runs into a water hazard for the first time. "Hey cool, I got this neat ring of waterbreathing in Korthos. I'll just use that!"

Clicks ring on the hotbar to equip
Clicks ring again to use
Clicks normal ring to not be fighting with a ring of waterbreathing on instead of the awesome Acrobat's Ring

"Hey, where'd my waterbreathing go?!? This game sucks!"

Uninstall.


EDIT:

Look, I'm not going to claim that this scenario is likely, but the fact remains that triggering a spell via a device should not require that the device remain equipped. Spell durations have a meaning in the game, and applying waterbreathing via a device is no different than applying waterbreathing via a spell. The spell duration is the key factor, not the device. The spell should never just end because the device that cast is is now in the backpack of the user.

[Niminae]

Oh, I agree completely. Having a large amount of level 20 items would make gearing in epics a lot more fun.

It would certainly give casters a few options for their sentient jewels which are not terribad compared to Cannith Crafting values.

The only 'current' L20 items which exist for casters at present are all locked behind events and not generally available.

[vms4ever]

Wish granted? http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Le...s_of_the_Snake

It's gloves and a level higher but it's all I could do with 7 minutes of notice.

You were able to create those, get them pushed out to live AND on ddowiki all in 7 minutes? You deserve another raise!

I think I passed those to a guildie a month ago, when I was on my healbot raising my party members (because it is easier to raise than to heal). [Of course, having things stay in the same equipment slot so we didn't have to totally re-equip every time we wanted to change one item would be nice also. ]

However, yes, that does work and I had forgotten about them. Thank you.

[Fivetigers33]

The new spyglass is the cat's meow WHEN (and only when) it is combined with a keylock ring. Could we have a level 20 keylock ring for even better stacking happiness?

Epic Goggles of Time Sensing
Epic Utility Vest

Better than those ML21 gloves.

:-)

[Fivetigers33]

Oh, I agree completely. Having a large amount of level 20 items would make gearing in epics a lot more fun.

However, given that the s/s/s system as a whole, any large changes to make the system more accessible and less punishing should only really happen after all of the base items have been reworked.

Is there any chance you could get around to updating the Dragontouched Armors? It would fall under your current criteria of updating heroic gear, but if updated correctly, it could give players more options for low to mid epic armors.

[Kza]

Oh, I agree completely. Having a large amount of level 20 items would make gearing in epics a lot more fun.

However, given that the s/s/s system as a whole, any large changes to make the system more accessible and less punishing should only really happen after all of the base items have been reworked.

Is ssg:s long term plan to redo all old epics and after update seal shard system? Awesome IF so!!!?

[ThomasHunter]

I do love those gloves, just haven't looted any yet!

[cru121]

Epic Goggles of Time Sensing
Epic Utility Vest

Better than those ML21 gloves.

:-)

Yeah those are pretty bad choices. BtC, wasting precious bank space. Armor as a swap item. S/S/S, one of them comes from a raid. Abysmal. Haste clicky is the only redeeming feature.

[Razor_Wit]

Wish granted? http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Le...s_of_the_Snake

It's gloves and a level higher but it's all I could do with 7 minutes of notice.

Whats a serpant ?

edit: most likely fixed already.

[JOTMON]

It's already exclusive

What I don't want is for everyone in the universe to say "now I need a copy of Wave for all of my characters forever so I can hit that 1m clickie once/rest regardless of if I use staves or not." I like having swap items and cool clickies (U39 items had quite a few long duration ones), but Wave is way too high profile to be relegated to "swap item everyone is bored farming for." We've got some good ideas cooking for cool swap items - Night Revels, anyone? - but Wave just doesn't fit that profile.

makes sense, No point having iconic named items be desirable to everyone.
Probably helps lag too... by discouraging players from grind running content to farm multiple items when you can just make it obscure niche useful and near worthless for everyone else.
Congrats on successfully making the item [expletive] for the majority of the player base that is not a qstaff user..

/sarcasm off.

...Sorry Q. it had to be said....


Even as a qstaff user.. meh...

Staves for casters are subpar since they do not = 2 single handers and of course.. screws with things like casting scrolls since it unequips the 2 hander to scroll cast...

Description
A long, stout staff used as a simple weapon. Often favored by wizards or common folk.
*except in DDO where they are a bad choice*

Staves for casters have been a fail from the beginning .
Dev's have implemented some pathetic enhancements for casters that all failed to invigorate anyone from bothering with them.

They tried adding Thaumaturgy with update 14.. that didn't do much to entice casters to go to staves..
its more difficult to get 3 random effects to align on a qstaff, and payers are still be better off finding 2 single hand sticks with 2 desired random effects.. giving 4 effects..


We have asked for years for quarterstaves to have double what 2 single sticks have, but these plea's have been ignored.



Sure there are some enhancements in the caster trees for quarterstaffs.. but they run counter to orb enhancements and are no better than plain cover everything enhancements..
so why pigeon-hole your build with inferior choices

Quarterstaffs have a prefix/suffix and usually a third effect and a chance of an augment slot... well guess what so do two different single sticks that can be dual wielded...

Can easily mix match caster power with offhand stat sticks on a single weapon without losing bonuses when swapping weapons..

Cant cast scrolls/wands with quarterstaff equipped.

Some niche quaterstaffs offer potential to be better.. like thunderforged but even these fall short when compared to dual wielding or stick/orb.

set bonuses that include weapons/orbs.. qstaff only counts as 1 but takes 2 slots.

Its too bad that orbs were not treated like runearms for casters so they could use quarterstaffs with the orbs and at least then be potentially useful with a qstaff..




Ultimately if you are using a quarterstaff as a caster you are gimping your toon.
after asking for 10 years.. I think most players have just given up on qstaves for casters
the qstaff has to be compared to 2 single sticks to be worthy

Maybe some day they will realize that the quarterstaff has to be as good as or better than equipping 2 comparably powered single hand sticks, or stick/orb to be even considered viable.

Perhaps you could take some time to look at how scrolls interact with staves.. and figure out a way to cast scrolls without unequipping the main hand weapon.
we can drink potions while holding a 2hander or something in the main hand...

and really.. look at the 2 handers and how they compare to 1 handers.. 2 handers should be 2x a 1 hander .. plain and simple... 2 prefixes, 2 suffixes, 2 slots.. etc....

[Niminae]

and really.. look at the 2 handers and how they compare to 1 handers.. 2 handers should be 2x a 1 hander .. plain and simple... 2 prefixes, 2 suffixes, 2 slots.. etc....

This bears repeating.

Some two handed weapons have enhancement trees which compensate for the fact that they are two-handed items which only provide the affects of a one-handed item. Mechanic, for example. Artificer which allows a rune arm with another 4 affects is another example. Others, not so much. Bows and staves are two of the weapon types which do not have a supporting enhance tree which overcomes the limitations imposed by the primary weapon being a two-handed one which does not allow for more than 4 affects. This needs to change, in one way or the other. Either the enhancement trees need to be revisited or the itemization needs to be revisited.

[Niminae]

What I don't want is for everyone in the universe to say "now I need a copy of Wave for all of my characters forever so I can hit that 1m clickie once/rest regardless of if I use staves or not." [...] Wave is way too high profile to be relegated to "swap item everyone is bored farming for."

It's nice to hear what you don't want. What you've got however is everyone in the universe saying "why is this sub-par item not working as per the rules for all clickies?" Making Wave, a "way too high profile" item a sub-par item was the first fail. Making the clicky fail when Wave was unequipped was the second fail.

So now despite what you want what you have is Echoes of Wave, a failed item that few people will want to own or use despite your perceptions of it as an iconic item. Will you change it in order to make it live up to your perceptions of what a "way too high profile" item should be, or will it remain as it is now and lie fallow?

[janave]

- Replace Underwater action with +3 water/air spell augmentation.


This would make it ..to be considered* using for me

[Iriale]

- Replace Underwater action with +3 water/air spell augmentation.


This would make it ..to be considered* using for me

+1. if they want to do 6 enchantments compared to the 8 that you have when dual-wielding, all 6 have to be useful and awesome.

[Noir]

- Replace Underwater action with +3 water/air spell augmentation.
This would make it ..to be considered* using for me

But Wave didn't do that in module S2 and I would guess that WOTC had to approve the item and if it strayed to far from the original module design they wouldn't approve it.

[glmfw1]

Level 4 new-ish player runs into a water hazard for the first time. "Hey cool, I got this neat ring of waterbreathing in Korthos. I'll just use that!"

Clicks ring on the hotbar to equip
Clicks ring again to use
Clicks normal ring to not be fighting with a ring of waterbreathing on instead of the awesome Acrobat's Ring
"Hey, where'd my waterbreathing go?!? This game sucks!"
Uninstall.

EDIT:

Look, I'm not going to claim that this scenario is likely, but the fact remains that triggering a spell via a device should not require that the device remain equipped. Spell durations have a meaning in the game, and applying waterbreathing via a device is no different than applying waterbreathing via a spell. The spell duration is the key factor, not the device. The spell should never just end because the device that cast is is now in the backpack of the user.

D&D Scenario:

• Character puts ring on
• Character says command word to activate ring as they jump into the water and can breathe water
• Character takes ring off while underwater
• Character is not surprised that they drown as the spell stops working

Clickies that function like this would allow for spells/effects to be available at lower levels than perma-effects on items would. Expectations of DDO have made people think of magical effects cast from clickies to be synonymous with spells. In theory, a lot of useful, scenario-specific effects could be added to the game as clickies if they only functioned while worn, but having them as perma-effects without items to sustain them could allow too much power too easily. It would be possible to have a variety of clickies - some where the effect remained and others where the effect requires the item to be equipped. It would also be possible to have clickies with multiple effects (e.g. ring has 3 gems with one clicky per gem) that can all be active at the same time, but all of which stop when the item is removed (either sharing charges or each with their own set of charges per rest).

[vms4ever]

Epic Goggles of Time Sensing
Epic Utility Vest

Better than those ML21 gloves.

:-)

I have those and have used those and liked them...at level 20, by level 24 I was decidedly squishy.
Those ML21 gloves + new level 20 spyglass gives +23 to the important skills and +4 to int and True Seeing and a green slot. Then go and pick up the armor of choice for the level and less squishy and the option of immunity to magic missiles.

At level 24 and level 28 swap spyglass for another +2 skills/+1 int and at level 28 swap again for another +3 skills/+3 int for a total at level 28 of +28 skills, +9 (insightful) int. At 29 swap the keylock ring for another +4 to skills (+32 total) and a blue slot.

(Math might need checking, still on first cup of coffee)

[nokowi]

D&D Scenario:

• Character puts ring on
• Character says command word to activate ring as they jump into the water and can breathe water
• Character takes ring off while underwater
• Character is not surprised that they drown as the spell stops working

Clickies that function like this would allow for spells/effects to be available at lower levels than perma-effects on items would. Expectations of DDO have made people think of magical effects cast from clickies to be synonymous with spells. In theory, a lot of useful, scenario-specific effects could be added to the game as clickies if they only functioned while worn, but having them as perma-effects without items to sustain them could allow too much power too easily. It would be possible to have a variety of clickies - some where the effect remained and others where the effect requires the item to be equipped. It would also be possible to have clickies with multiple effects (e.g. ring has 3 gems with one clicky per gem) that can all be active at the same time, but all of which stop when the item is removed (either sharing charges or each with their own set of charges per rest).

Players expect a consistent rule set or at least some logic behind design.

DDO has no rule sets or logic behind design - it's a mishmash of ever changing design philosophy and incomplete functionality.

SSG - Pick something and use design so that every item is not some exception that requires you to understand how to stack and exploit poor design.

The simple fix to clicky exploit would be to only allow one item clicky effect to work at a time - new clicky replaces old clicky. None of the old items were designed with "must have equipped to use" in mind - so despite D&D mechanics, none of the items were appropriately designed for D&D rules.

There is no great solution when "design" is nothing but individual exceptions to logic or rule sets - only better design can create a consistent system.

[Niminae]

D&D Scenario:

You know the reason I gave a DDO scenario instead of a D&D scenario? Because DDO is not D&D. For literally the entire run of DDO all clickies applied a spell effect to the user, breaking that mold now and for one item only is a really, really bad idea. And especially so when the reasons given do not hold up to even the most casual examination.

[glmfw1]

You know the reason I gave a DDO scenario instead of a D&D scenario? Because DDO is not D&D.

Except that your example references a new-ish player, who is far more likely to understand how things work in D&D than to have the inbuilt assumptions of how DDO works. Anyone playing a new game discovering "the effect I got from item #1 is removed when I take item #1 off and replace it with item #2" would just think "oh, that's how things work in this game".