Echo of Wave clickie ends if you unequp

[Lynnabel]

So a surpressed item + sigil gives you the new item?

(Btw I don't get what all the fuss is about wave I don't yet have it but on my sonic based bard making all my aoe spells have a chance to freeze my enemies sounds cheating)

Suppressed item + 3 sigils (the BTA Sigil of the Goat, Dragon, etc) = new item.... or you can just find the new items in all the places the old items used to drop, already ready to go. The Sigils now serve no purpose and no longer drop, so you can clear those 3 rows out of your green bags, and worry about one less arbitrary crafting system

[glmfw1]

Yep, WAI. The intention wasn't for every tank ever to have to farm one up from now until the rest of time - it's just a cool thing that Wave can do for you. Part of me really wishes all Clickies worked like that, but I'm pretty sure you guys would revolt if that were the case.

TBH, if all clickies were changed so that they only worked when equipped, it would open the door to having more clickies available in the game. Because you can cast a clicky then remove it encourages people to multi-clicky, disencouraging devs from giving us more/different clickies to use.

[TitusOvid]

90% is still passing. I'll take it!

The sentinels items were an easy fix. The worn/suppressed versions no longer drop, and the Sigils no longer drop - the unsuppressed items just drop where their suppressed versions did before (so it'll be possible to get mythic/reaper). If you have sigils and an unsuppressed item, I left the turn in box where it was so there's no rush. The helm and bsword still have their cool dragonmark scripts, the bracers still have their monk stance effects, etc etc. Only heroic versions were changed, and as with all old pack loot revamps, you will need to reacquire the new items if you'd like to use them. You'll be able to check these items out on Lamannia before they go live, too, just in case I forgot one or something :P

I don't know if my question was asked before but, is there a valid reason that you don't revamp the epic items?
I am aware that it is far more complex than the heroic ones but the benfit for the game would be immense, imo.

[Lynnabel]

I don't know if my question was asked before but, is there a valid reason that you don't revamp the epic items?
I am aware that it is far more complex than the heroic ones but the benfit for the game would be immense, imo.

Oh, I agree completely. Having a large amount of level 20 items would make gearing in epics a lot more fun.

However, given that the s/s/s system as a whole, any large changes to make the system more accessible and less punishing should only really happen after all of the base items have been reworked.

[TitusOvid]

Oh, I agree completely. Having a large amount of level 20 items would make gearing in epics a lot more fun.

However, given that the s/s/s system as a whole, any large changes to make the system more accessible and less punishing should only really happen after all of the base items have been reworked.

It doesn't have to be lvl 20 items, tbh. the quests epic red fens or von for exmaple are not lvl 20. so the epified items could correspond to that lvl.
My thinking was, if you focus on one pack why not go all the way?!

[glmfw1]

Oh, I agree completely. Having a large amount of level 20 items would make gearing in epics a lot more fun.

However, given that the s/s/s system as a whole, any large changes to make the system more accessible and less punishing should only really happen after all of the base items have been reworked.

As and when you have completed the rework of the base items, can you just update the S/S/S items and make the Ss drop a little bit more often than they currently do (and maybe have either the S or S drop in more quests not just in end chests of end-of-chain quests)? Trying to catch all 3 Ss can be fun if the reward is worth it, and keeps things a bit more interesting than "run quest X over and over until the item drops".

[Fivetigers33]

This thread in a nutshell:

1. Wave sucks.
1b. Trace of Madness will be added to WPM weapons at a later time to improve them (or (more likely) some other upgrade mechanic)

2. Devs shouldn't make so many sh*tty items.

3. But some players like sh*tty items!

4. S/S/S items will get a revamp in 2023.



In all honesty, regarding item 3 from my list, it's the whole "one man's treasure is another man's trash" thing, and here's my take on that situation.

Player A says, "this item is junk, make it better", and player B says, "but I like that item!". The Devs should not listen to player B, and here's why. Make the item BETTER, and player B will still like it. Now you've made both players A and B happy.

[Niminae]

WAI to prevent exploits

The WAI way to prevent the exploitation of clicky effects for all other clickies in the game (they have missed a few, but you didn't hear that from me) is to make them exclusive.

Making Legendary/Echo of Wave exclusive for that purpose (I know that it is exclusive) should have been a trivial thing to do, since they have done so to many other items in the past. And that should have been the end of it. Making the clicky effect terminate when you unequip it probably took some time to figure out, and also creates a single item exception to what is otherwise a general rule. Not a good design practice. As evidence, this thread. No customer would have needed to come to the forums to try to figure out why their Echo of Wave isn't working like they think it should work if the general "how all clickys work" rule hadn't been violated.

[Thrudh]

Thank you for the support.

Unfortunately that will just be interpreted as you also being a terrible person out to make the developers feel bad like me.

Take care

Well your first post, you were completely sarcastic and dismissive, so you're at fault for the initial bad tone.

That last post with plenty of details on WHY bad items are bad was about 1000x better, and I much appreciate you posting it.

[Thrudh]

As for the subject of the this thread, Wave...

I see it as not a very good item, and I happen to have a melee THF quarterstaff user AND a wizard.

Neither really want it. Maybe, maybe the wizard will try it when I get it. Although any caster staff needs far MORE bonuses to match two one-handed sticks.

I don't think completely gimping my DPS to 10% of normal is worth a 25% reduction in incoming damage for my melee q-staff guy.

[droid327]

The upgraded versions of the weapons will be competitive with the weapons that come from Baba Lysaga, The Curse of Strahd, and the upcoming u40 raid. It'll make a lot more sense when you see it come together, but for now, just remember that just because the base items are at regular quest drop rates, the rest of the stuff you need to make their true forms might not be the easiest in the world to come across

Would you consider adding a safety net solo friendly alternative acquisition pathway for older raids? Those that aren't run for endgame anymore, or just aren't commonly run? Or for people (like me) that just solo and don't really have any interest in raiding?
I totally get the newer better shinies should be raid only, but raids that have become more deprecated don't need to have their gear protected in the same way.

I'm thinking of things like the heroic Black Abbott quiver and Comms of Heroism/CitW items. I don't think anyone is going to complain about CitW weapons being grindable solo now that we have TF and LGS and RL raid gear to chase instead...but I'd love to be able to, say, trade CoVs for CoHs 1:50 or something so I could put a socket on my Needle (that I got with the old free giveaway) or pick up a Celestia for my swash alt. Same with the quiver, if you could trade like a completed sigil+tome+shield+50 tap shards or something for it, that'd be awesome for heroic TR grinding.

[ChicagoChris]

The WAI way to prevent the exploitation of clicky effects for all other clickies in the game (they have missed a few, but you didn't hear that from me) is to make them exclusive.

Making Legendary/Echo of Wave exclusive for that purpose should have been a trivial thing to do, since they have done so to many other items in the past. Making the clicky effect terminate when you unequip it probably took some time to figure out, and also creates a single item exception to what is otherwise a general rule. Not a good design practice. As evidence, this thread. No customer would have needed to come to the forums to try to figure out why their Echo of Wave isn't working like their think it should work if the general "how all clickys work" rule hadn't been violated.

^^^ This - having one (well, 2 if you split heroic/epic) item work differently then the 172+ *other* clicky items is just confusing as all get out.

And I'm not saying that Lynnabel isn't doing absolutely *amazing* work for the game. I'm a spyglass Luddite, so didn't farm the new one - but that's just me, and I truly appreciate all the work that's been done on all the changes that we've seen to the game. I just think that this one concern could have been solved by the Exclusive flag rather than making a one minute clicky work differently than every other clicky in the game.

Lynnabel - keep up the good work! How do we send donuts?

[Niminae]

Then there's the raid dagger Suffering. You described raiding in this thread as a high risk, high reward activity for highly skilled players. And yet this item has an effect on it that is almost completely useless in anything other than the easiest difficulty settings in the game. Was the thinking behind this that when these highly skilled players are not raiding, they are off running six person quests on casual or normal? Is anything in quests on casual or normal going to survive being hit by the dagger long enough to worry about CON drain?

Then of course there is the famous abjuration ring from Mad Tea Party. An item that was apparently created just to round out the bonuses to spell schools, even though the game hardly has any useful abjuration spells in it.

I disagree with your position of these and similar items. The Adversion ring may be useless to most players, but I'd rather see it in the game than exclude a single spell school from the itemization given to all the other spell schools just because there are not many spells or effects that capitalize on the effects. If they added 15 Abjuration spells in U40 the very first forum post about it would have been "Good job on excluding Abjuration from the spell school items in Ravenloft, devs!" And you know this is the truth. :-P

Suffering should be doing what neg leveling does, reducing saves for a while and removing a chunk of HP that doesn't come back just because the neg level or Con reduction effect expires. If it isn't doing this then it should be fixed, but if it is then it seems to have the exact utility it is described as having.

This also ties into the issue of that extremely arbitrary, harmful and not even being observed all the time 'rule' of four effects per item. If going forward this is going to be your design principle for loot, please be far more careful about wasting space on items with junk effects. Or preferably, scrap that rule entirely and just use good judgement instead when deciding how to build items. We've had long periods of time in the game where no such rule existed and the game didn't break. Sticking to an arbitrary rule like that hasn't produced good loot so far and there's no guarantee it will in the future.

This is a sentiment that I can get behind, especially in regards to utility items that do not help the players kill monsters. There is no power creep if a utility item has more than 4 effects or if they are higher than Cannith Crafting values, all that can do is to improve quality of life for the players.

[-D_Rock-]

Oh, I agree completely. Having a large amount of level 20 items would make gearing in epics a lot more fun.

However, given that the s/s/s system as a whole, any large changes to make the system more accessible and less punishing should only really happen after all of the base items have been reworked.

I disagree with this "less punishing' as you so put it. Take ravenloft for example. some of those items I literally got lucky enough to pull an item on the first pull and was done. This trend is well.... way too easy to get epic items or what should be considered epic items for some of the 'best gear' in game. it really its. the old SSS system was far better, not everyone, their brother and their dog was running around with a tomahawk missile in their back pocket because they had a nuke in their hands. the lack of any kind of effort for getting anything anymore has been on a depressing decline. granted I don't want to run 1000 runs of something to get a good item either but that's what drop rates are for that you guys are in full control of manipulating as well if things are a bit overboard one way or the other.

[nokowi]

As far as I can see, the Rule of 4 Effects was/is completely arbitrary. There has been ZERO explanations for it other than "that's a rule we're going to try to stick to." It would have been different if there was a systems reason for it (5 or more effects caused too much lag, made the Databases too big, etc.) but no such reason has been alleged by anyone, much less by a Dev. My guess is it was a rule made up (for no apparent reason other than perhaps a lame way to address power creep) by someone above Lynnabel's pay grade and she's just following that rule.

It should be obvious. They did work to fit all their effects for random loot into a 4-slot design, and that is likely the same system they are using for named items.

The reason for using the same system is so they can create items much more easily (and likely reuse effects) in this newer coding system with 4 slots.


Could they have made it a system that works with more or less slots? Sure, but they probably didn't.

The choice is now likely between very few named items with even more bugs and that break at each new update, or many more items that fit into this 4 slot system, with less breakage as changes to the game are made.

[nokowi]

I disagree with this "less punishing' as you so put it. Take ravenloft for example. some of those items I literally got lucky enough to pull an item on the first pull and was done. This trend is well.... way too easy to get epic items or what should be considered epic items for some of the 'best gear' in game. it really its. the old SSS system was far better, not everyone, their brother and their dog was running around with a tomahawk missile in their back pocket because they had a nuke in their hands. the lack of any kind of effort for getting anything anymore has been on a depressing decline. granted I don't want to run 1000 runs of something to get a good item either but that's what drop rates are for that you guys are in full control of manipulating as well if things are a bit overboard one way or the other.

I agree the S/S/S system kept the content relevant much longer, and provided some very nice benefits to grouping (people always wanted those things).

Their current design philosophy is to power creep away old items in 1-2 updates, which would not fit in well with the S/S/S system.

S/S/S system shined when power creep was horizontal.

With vertical power creep, you get the new stuff while it is hot or you may not have a chance for grouping.

[Gratch]

I'm fine with an abjuration ring. I personally liked ye olde Throne of Bhaal where caster fights often first involved stripping away (abjuring) protections vs. magic so you could do DC or damage to said epic wizard-npc you were fighting. Give mobs spell mantle 10. Give us an abjuration spell that can strip it away. I'd be happy if some future DDO update brought more of that flavor of D&D to the game. So I don't mind the ring or the plan to give all the available spell schools some boosting item. Symmetry.

I'd put the much bigger issue with RL loot design is the Nightmother's Sceptre that mostly obviates all the other DC items being only 1 down in DC's and collects and matches all other spell penetration items. Beyond best in slot and very easily acquired in quests or via trade-in. It should probably be nerfed, but the player outcry would be insane.

If we're really talking RL loot design. When the sceptre gets nerfed, I'm blaming all the Adversion whiners for long loot complaint threads.

[vms4ever]

^^^ This - having one (well, 2 if you split heroic/epic) item work differently then the 172+ *other* clicky items is just confusing as all get out.

And I'm not saying that Lynnabel isn't doing absolutely *amazing* work for the game. I'm a spyglass Luddite, so didn't farm the new one - but that's just me, and I truly appreciate all the work that's been done on all the changes that we've seen to the game. I just think that this one concern could have been solved by the Exclusive flag rather than making a one minute clicky work differently than every other clicky in the game.

Lynnabel - keep up the good work! How do we send donuts?

The new spyglass is the cat's meow WHEN (and only when) it is combined with a keylock ring. Could we have a level 20 keylock ring for even better stacking happiness?

[Lynnabel]

The new spyglass is the cat's meow WHEN (and only when) it is combined with a keylock ring. Could we have a level 20 keylock ring for even better stacking happiness?

Wish granted? http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Le...s_of_the_Snake

It's gloves and a level higher but it's all I could do with 7 minutes of notice.

[SpartanKiller13]

Wish granted? http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Le...s_of_the_Snake

It's gloves and a level higher but it's all I could do with 7 minutes of notice.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Lynnabel again.

Again. Thanks for what you do