Echo of Wave clickie ends if you unequp

[cru121]

My opinion:
* Wave is bad. Normal clicky would make it useful, but at least we can eat it. Nom nom nom. The argument about everyone having to farm it is flawed. Everyone has/had to farm to farm the death ward clicky. Death ward is much more useful than swirly stuff.
* I like Keylock Ring. I don't mind swapping, or I just keep it on.
* I like both the old and the new Spyglass, and all versions are still available. Why whine about it so much?! I just don't get it.

abjuration rings, clickies that disappear when we unequip the item, caster sets that are worse than gear from earlier packs, bad rogue gear justified as utility items, raid daggers with wounding on them, epic helms that can be upgraded with heroic effects, replacement event items that are worse than the originals, items with a negative energy absorption effect that a PM would want to wear, bad raid bows

abjuration rings: nom nom
wave: nom nom
caster sets: grindless alternative is good
bad rogue gear: bad for you, good for others
wounding dagger: should no longer round down to 0 soon
epic helm: that's a fifth bonus effect on items that are supposed to have 4 effects, free candy
event items: worse for you, not for me
negative absorption on PM: non-sense, PM will want the Intelligence version, not the version with Healing Amplification

[Elfishski]

I am not a min-max player by any means. The gearset my main, the rogue, usually wears is very much a compromise between DPS, DC, defence and utility effects. So attempting to cast me as an intolerant power gamer who will sneer at anything not BiS is really missing the mark.

I don't think we should be adding new items that are worse than existing items. I don't think we should be adding items for the sake of "symmetry" rather than adding a genuinely useful item instead. Not even in the hope that perhaps one day this item may become useful, especially given how quickly items age in this game. Nor do I think we should be celebrating items that are made in a way to reward laziness, poor gearing decisions or lack of enterprise in pursing better gear from other parts of the game. The argument that it's okay for us to get bad items instead of good ones because they can be used as sentient weapon food is just awful; does this really seem preferable to getting good items that can also be used as sentient weapon food?

I know you're very far from an intolerant power gamer, please don't take that interpretation! I'm just noting that as one of the top players of the game you see gear differently to newer players, and I think it's fine for some items to be useful and fairly available while significantly below the power curve for the hard to acquire items vets are using. Ideally lower difficulty levels and readily acquirable gear can allow absolute casuals who only log in rarely to have fun despite poor gearing decisions.

Personally, I find symmetry pleasing, so we can agree to disagree - as long as there is other gear of genuine interest in the same content pack it doesn't seem a big deal to have the odd rare dud item that might as well be a sentient xp gem (but hopefully has some flavour relevant to the content to justify itself). In terms of items needing to be better because items are obsolete too fast... well, that's why items are obsolete too fast. If items fitted more closely in to the current power level while bringing something a bit new then older items and older content wouldn't be obsolete so fast, but I don't think we disagree there.

[janave]

In a low population game, making items that maybe* soon* be useful to 1/ 1000 builds* is not really a good ROI. No matter how much we enjoy flavor items with creative uses.

[Razor_Wit]

are you saying that blackrazor should be useful for a THF vistani fighter and Whelm should be of use on a sorcerer? because every item has its niche, as for wave itself, considering it will be buffed further, it would work well in wolf form, on an acrobat, on a quarterstaff monk, on a quaterstaff barbarian (it works) and caster hybrids that fight with a quarterstaff. this is far from being as niche as ornamented dagger, or a great x-bow

Yes, the builds that I have already mentioned. Its gets used by q-staff melee and casters. What a waste for it just to sit in the bank when you aren't playing one of these builds. And the reason? oh then everyone would use it who had one. Ya. It's a good clickie. What gets broken if every player could use it again? Oh ya BALANCE. Its exclusive, it has 1 charge/rest. What a load.

Yes, if Blackrazor had a cool clickie that every player in the game could benefit from I would also argue for that because "balance" is an albatross and subject to any whim. It's not so much that I care about Echo specifically. To me its another glaring example of decisions being made that make the game less fun and for what? Using "balance" as rationale to me is like saying they don't want the people who are running R7 and up to become even stronger-but at the expense of the other 90% of the game population.

[Razor_Wit]

We don't want every character on every life to benefit from being able to swap it in for the full duration without actually being a character that would normally use Wave. It's a fun unique effect, and turning Wave into a "everyone should carry one around to cast this 1/rest" stick does a disservice to its theme and history.

What it does is a disservice to fun. Worry about player experience. Wave is not a paying customer. Wave does not keep the lights on. Maybe one day eventually I'll get around to playing the build/s you specifically had in mind when creating it. Until that day it will just sit in my pack as a reminder of bad design choices made apparently because Wave might be offended....

[blerkington]

I know you're very far from an intolerant power gamer, please don't take that interpretation! I'm just noting that as one of the top players of the game you see gear differently to newer players, and I think it's fine for some items to be useful and fairly available while significantly below the power curve for the hard to acquire items vets are using. Ideally lower difficulty levels and readily acquirable gear can allow absolute casuals who only log in rarely to have fun despite poor gearing decisions.

Personally, I find symmetry pleasing, so we can agree to disagree - as long as there is other gear of genuine interest in the same content pack it doesn't seem a big deal to have the odd rare dud item that might as well be a sentient xp gem (but hopefully has some flavour relevant to the content to justify itself). In terms of items needing to be better because items are obsolete too fast... well, that's why items are obsolete too fast. If items fitted more closely in to the current power level while bringing something a bit new then older items and older content wouldn't be obsolete so fast, but I don't think we disagree there.

I do remember what it is like to be a new player. And I am a very, very long way away from being one of DDO's better players. Please don't sandbag me like that; I'm sure your intentions weren't bad but it's not true, I really don't like it, and it only makes things less enjoyable and more difficult for me in game and on the forums.

The Keylock Ring isn't particularly accessible for new players. It drops in a paid expansion, can't be bought from the AH or even be given away outside the chest in which it drops. Drop rates are significantly lower on easier difficulty settings, so the game isn't really doing much there to help the newbies either. It's also not starter gear, especially not the epic version. So I'm not sure this characterisation of the ring being a beginner item is entirely accurate.

We will have to disagree about symmetry because I do think it is a very bad reason for neglecting function. Endgame gearing for some builds, especially the one I mainly play has some problems right now and RL gear was a real headache. More attention to function and how items work together could have really alleviated this problem.

What I would like to see when I look at gear is something someone making intelligent gearing decisions might want to use, not a near useless item put there for the sake of pointless box-ticking. Aside from the issue of what a poor selection of DC based abjuration spells there are in game (which I suspect the person who made the ring didn't understand and didn't think to check) much more useful DC caster gear is available from the very same expansion pack.

Anyway, it's been good talking to you again as always. If the tone of my replies seemed harsh at any point I apologise, and I look forward to seeing you and your guildies in game.

Take care.

[kmoustakas]

I care who makes the items. Making items is fun!



It's never too early to stick up for yourself.

I like the items you make about 90% of the item, 3% is too low

I will judge you harshly though on the Sentinels items you said you're looking into. If that elyd edge isn't changed to do damage with charisma I will cry (unless it gets the inspiring echoes ability in which case I will mail you a check!). Also those are pretty niche items it will be next to impossible not to generalize them into triviality. But we believe in you Lynnabel!

PS And please rethink wether inspiring echoes should work with all single target bard songs wink wink

[Iriale]

Wave is a bad item, it does not equal to wield two weapons, and that really is not good for any archetype. My druid caster, who is one of the archetypes that could benefit from this weapon, certainly loses a lot by choosing Wave versus two weapons. A hybrid should not choose this weapon either. A hybrid gets much more benefit if he chooses a dps weapon and carries the spellpower / lore in the non-weapon gear. In fact, for someone who wants to attack with electric and cold spells, the belt of ravenloft, which has the same lore, is a must.

The current design of the loot has many many failures. The last time I said this Lynnabel took it as a personal attack, and that's not true. The current policy of the loot comes from before she went to work full-time with SSG. But Lynnabel, I tell you that: if you really care about what the players have to say, let us tell you why the loot policy is so bad now. Maybe you can talk to other designers and mark some changes.

I can tell you a few realities about the current politics of the loot, if you really want to read and think about it. It costs me too much to write in English so that the result of writing all that (which will not be short) ends in another penalty for trying to give my opinion. But if you want to know why there are so many people unhappy with the loot now, let me explain why.

And it has nothing to do with the numbers being no bigger than the previous pack. In fact, they should not be bigger, the loot should currently have more lateral growth before inflating the numbers.

That said, I'm glad to know that Wave can be improved in the future. Maybe that way it becomes a competitive weapon. Today I can not think of using it, it is not good enough compared to other alternatives that exist in the game. And they do not even have to be raid loot. *Sigh*

[Rull]

Part of me really wishes all Clickies worked like that

That would be pretty awesome. If only clickies worked like that and were balanced for that from the start...

[Requiro]

(...)

This also ties into the issue of that extremely arbitrary, harmful and not even being observed all the time 'rule' of four effects per item. If going forward this is going to be your design principle for loot, please be far more careful about wasting space on items with junk effects. Or preferably, scrap that rule entirely and just use good judgement instead when deciding how to build items. We've had long periods of time in the game where no such rule existed and the game didn't break. Sticking to an arbitrary rule like that hasn't produced good loot so far and there's no guarantee it will in the future.

Thanks.

I completely agree with you.
That was so unwise, locking designer decision move. Moreover it completely illogical. In DDO effects where never in balance. For example bonus to skill Swim will always consider as waste of slot, and thus should never be consider in item creation.
We see that logic in new CC Ring (Buccanner). On new version this effect was removed. No one care, because it's just Swim. But on the other hand, if you use this item as swamp item for Underwater action, that swim bonus could be useful.

Lynnabel work I consider great.
But someone that develop that rule, should be fired.

[TitusOvid]

In a low population game, making items that maybe* soon* be useful to 1/ 1000 builds* is not really a good ROI. No matter how much we enjoy flavor items with creative uses.

Nor is the "it could be useful in the future" and the "it is just for nom nom".

[blerkington]

you mean crystal cove, the old spyglass is STILL available so don't pretend it got replaced, and it was changed exactly because of comparaison with other gear, that are now following a more streamlined progression, this is valid both for older gear being upgraded, or in some case downgraded. also with the new Ravenloft keylock ring and WPM glove that boost search/disable/spot, having the new spyglass trinket actually makes it better for some including myself for stacking, and is precisely what i would call taking into effect other gear.

You do remember the sequence of events with the spyglass, don't you?

It was going to be replaced, there was a period of attempting to bargain in a much worse newer version with all sorts of poor excuses for doing so, and only in the end after a lot of protest from players was a substantially revised new item added on top of allowing the old one to stay.

The new version of the item provides a lower exceptional shills bonus than is found on other gear, only becoming equivalent or higher very close to cap. And in such small amounts that the difference is quite negligible, particularly since by that time there are many other options to boost trap skills by equivalent or greater amounts.

Making gear that duplicates or is worse than other gear is an entirely pointless exercise, especially if there is no real difference in how hard it is to acquire the different options. If that sounds like a success story to you, I really don't know what to say. Just another example of someone hearing something they didn't like and then concocting a bunch of nonsense retroactively to justify their disagreement.

Thanks.

[cru121]

You do remember the sequence of events with the spyglass, don'r you?

It was going to be replaced, there was a period of attempting to bargain in a much worse newer version with all sorts of poor excuses for doing so, and only in the end after a lot of protest from players was a substantially revised new item added on top of allowing the old one to stay.

The new version of the item provides a lower exceptional shills bonus than is found on other gear, only becoming equivalent or higher very close to cap. And in such small amounts that the difference is quite negligible, particularly since by that time there are many other options to boost trap skills by equivalent or greater amounts.

I don't recall this sequence of events.
* Old versions staying was the intention right from the start.
* Please link a stronger source of exceptional skill bonus at level 4, at level 8, and again at level 24, and 28.

[SpartanKiller13]

Just make better loot for us please. Loot that gives us a reason to form groups and run your content. Doesn't have to be OP and doesn't have to be useful for everyone all the time, but should find that point where it's sufficiently desirable not to become sentient weapon food most of the time.

Man I found plenty of things I wanted to farm, even in that quest. Deathward clicky? Sign me up.

Besides, there's potentially an upgrade to these items which would make them even better, so why worry if you don't like every item? Someone probably does, and not every item has to be BiS for everyone (in fact I'd argue against that).

So, that's 22 bad items out of... *checks the record*... wow, I've made 558 items so far since starting work on DDO. That gives me a 3% "bad item" rate, which seems pretty good to me.

Maybe with Sharn I can bring it down to 2% - here's hoping!

Wow! That's a lotta items. Glad to have you

[blerkington]

I don't recall this sequence of events.
* Old versions staying was the intention right from the start.
* Please link a stronger source of exceptional skill bonus at level 4, at level 8, and again at level 24, and 28.

From what I can find in the Lammania u39.1 loot thread about updated 3BC items, you seem to be right about the first point. So that was my mistake.

As for the exceptional skills bonus issue, that's not quite so clear-cut. You are right that the lower level spyglasses do offer better exceptional skills bonuses than otherwise available at those levels, but they are not required to trap effectively at those levels even in harder content.

The level 24 version of the item offers a +6 exceptional skills bonus that is no better than other choices including GS skills items which are available at less than half the ML.

As I said in my last post, the level 28 version of the new item provides a marginal increase over the +6 bonus from lower level gear but offers no real advantage especially given the many other ways available by that point to stack bonuses for trap skills.

The way the new version of the spyglass is set up also means it pretty much has to be used in conjunction with another traps skills item, an item which may by itself or with common buffs be enough to trap effectively. Because it occupies the same slot as the old version of the trinket, using that item at the same time is ruled out.

If creating several new items for these outcomes seems like a good use of developer time to you or a worthwhile improvement to the game, all I can say is we have very different standards for what those things mean.

Thanks.

[Xanthrawl]

SNIP!

I don't think we should be adding new items that are worse than existing items. I don't think we should be adding items for the sake of "symmetry" rather than adding a genuinely useful item instead. Not even in the hope that perhaps one day this item may become useful, especially given how quickly items age in this game.

I mostly agree with this sentiment, with a few exceptions.

Designing, and inherently balancing, gear is tremendously difficult in most games. I would argue that it doesn't really matter in DDO because of how the Devs have designed "challenge." Their idea of challenge is that if you do not have tank-like defenses, you simply die if you are hit on the more challenging settings. And it doesn't matter if you are hit by a ranged attack, a melee attack, or even a spell. The result is almost always the same. This differs tremendously from what I, and many other players, would consider challenging. This means that if an item does not have the best defensive attributes, it better have the best DPS attributes - your only hope is to kill it before it kills you. This is typically achieved through being at range, Crowd Control, (Dire Charge, Holds, etc.) or insta-killing (again, usually at range.)

Reaper should not have dropped mana dots. In fact shrines should have been more scarce in Reaper mode, further emphasizing the importance of resource management.

[nokowi]

Worry about player experience.

A novel idea.

I would be listening to what players consider a bad experience to lower the rate of complaints about new items instead of being defensive about all the great work that has been done with updating items.

It takes think skin to listen to player feedback - it does not take thick skin to ignore player feedback and become defensive. SSG seems to be better at the latter, and it's unfortunate to see bright prospects that are really appreciated moving in that direction.

Only a company striving to improve can improve - listening to players is vital.

It needs to be a top priority at SSG.

[Lynnabel]

I like the items you make about 90% of the item, 3% is too low

I will judge you harshly though on the Sentinels items you said you're looking into. If that elyd edge isn't changed to do damage with charisma I will cry (unless it gets the inspiring echoes ability in which case I will mail you a check!). Also those are pretty niche items it will be next to impossible not to generalize them into triviality. But we believe in you Lynnabel!

PS And please rethink wether inspiring echoes should work with all single target bard songs wink wink

90% is still passing. I'll take it!

The sentinels items were an easy fix. The worn/suppressed versions no longer drop, and the Sigils no longer drop - the unsuppressed items just drop where their suppressed versions did before (so it'll be possible to get mythic/reaper). If you have sigils and an unsuppressed item, I left the turn in box where it was so there's no rush. The helm and bsword still have their cool dragonmark scripts, the bracers still have their monk stance effects, etc etc. Only heroic versions were changed, and as with all old pack loot revamps, you will need to reacquire the new items if you'd like to use them. You'll be able to check these items out on Lamannia before they go live, too, just in case I forgot one or something :P

[Arkat]

This also ties into the issue of that extremely arbitrary, harmful and not even being observed all the time 'rule' of four effects per item. If going forward this is going to be your design principle for loot, please be far more careful about wasting space on items with junk effects. Or preferably, scrap that rule entirely and just use good judgement instead when deciding how to build items. We've had long periods of time in the game where no such rule existed and the game didn't break. Sticking to an arbitrary rule like that hasn't produced good loot so far and there's no guarantee it will in the future.

As far as I can see, the Rule of 4 Effects was/is completely arbitrary. There has been ZERO explanations for it other than "that's a rule we're going to try to stick to." It would have been different if there was a systems reason for it (5 or more effects caused too much lag, made the Databases too big, etc.) but no such reason has been alleged by anyone, much less by a Dev. My guess is it was a rule made up (for no apparent reason other than perhaps a lame way to address power creep) by someone above Lynnabel's pay grade and she's just following that rule.

[kmoustakas]

So a surpressed item + sigil gives you the new item?

(Btw I don't get what all the fuss is about wave I don't yet have it but on my sonic based bard making all my aoe spells have a chance to freeze my enemies sounds cheating)