Melee Survivability Changes Feedback Thread

[noobodyfool]

Epic Defensive Fighting

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

• New Epic Feat
• Auto granted at level 21
• Toggled Ability
  
  
  • While Toggle is active:
    
    
  • 10% Competence Bonus to max hit points, with an additional 10% for every combat "fighting" style feat you have, to a max of 50%. (Exact list below)
  • All spell or spell like abilities that are effected by metamagics have their ranged reduced to touch range (think shocking grasp)
  • Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
  • Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
  • Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
  • Exclusive from the Enlarge Spell Metamagic toggle
  • Remains active while dead
    Exclusive from SHIELD DEFLECTION
    
    

The Complete list of "Fighting Feats" that apply:

Single Weapon Fighting
Improved Single Weapon Fighting
Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Perfect Single Weapon Fighting

Two Handed Fighting
Improved Two Handed Fighting
Greater Two Handed Fighting
Perfect Two Handed Fighting

Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Perfect Two Weapon Fighting

Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
Perfect Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Bash
Exclusive from SHIELD DEFLECTION

Additional:
Paladin Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to sacred (which it appears it always was, but the application was incorrect should now stack)
Aasimar Racial hp bonus will be changed to Sacred (should now stack)
Fighter Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to Athletic (should now stack)

[Gabrael]

so many people treating this as a nerf to their hybrid build... when it's totally optional and you should not use it if if its not a help... people talk about their hybrid half-healer or smthing...
but then if you point out you don't need to use it, it's "yes we need to use it or we fall behind"... so it a nerf or not? why would you HAVE to use a totally optional ability if its a nerf? a pact with the devil sure, a cursed ability totally... but to call it a nerf...

I am not aiming this at everyone of course, and discussion of how to tweak this is good. but this is far from a black and white thingy, and I see it being useful for wanna be tanks, its easy to simply toggle it on when you want to specialize in tanking a bit with a back-up healer, and off otherwise. but a tradeoff i could envision is drop all spellpower to 0 but keep the range of healing magics,

[Melondrop]

If a dev would be so nice as to chime in here and let me know how giving me only 5 charges of power surge is supposed to help my fighter complete high reaper
i would appreciate it.

I realize no one there wanted to fix the prowess filagree problem correctly, and now that the bad fix has hit testing theres no going back.
So since we are now where we are....

please tell me how removing my ability to do damage is supposed to help me.

If your design goal is to increase melee survivability this change seems counterproductive to that end.

[Kaboom2112]

If a dev would be so nice as to chime in here and let me know how giving me only 5 charges of power surge is supposed to help my fighter complete high reaper
i would appreciate it.
.

They want you to be a barbarian.

[CaptainPurge]

They want you to be a barbarian.

and how?

[elvesunited]

so many people treating this as a nerf to their hybrid build... when it's totally optional and you should not use it if if its not a help... people talk about their hybrid half-healer or smthing...
but then if you point out you don't need to use it, it's "yes we need to use it or we fall behind"... so it a nerf or not? why would you HAVE to use a totally optional ability if its a nerf? a pact with the devil sure, a cursed ability totally... but to call it a nerf...

I am not aiming this at everyone of course, and discussion of how to tweak this is good. but this is far from a black and white thingy, and I see it being useful for wanna be tanks, its easy to simply toggle it on when you want to specialize in tanking a bit with a back-up healer, and off otherwise. but a tradeoff i could envision is drop all spellpower to 0 but keep the range of healing magics,

well some tweaks then ....

1) As a part of a Tier 5 enhancement, War Souls, WarPriests, and Eldritch Knights get to ignore the spellcasting penalties of this new feat. Some class lines are designed to be hybrid/caster hybrids. Trust me, they are not over-powered.

2) Friendly spells such as heals, repairs, or buffs should not be effected by the range penalty. We want to encourage inter-party healing and buffing not discourage it.

3) Shield mastery feat line should get hp bonus too. And hp bonus from different feat lines should not stack. Why shouldn't vanguards be able to benefit?

[Nubom70]

Cord and Design Team: Hey, we want you to test this and see if it's a good idea!

Everyone: Bad idea, design horrible, start over.

Cord and Design Team: Great, it'll be live shortly!

[noobodyfool]

Cord and Design Team: Hey, we want you to test this and see if it's a good idea!

Everyone: Bad idea, design horrible, start over.

Cord and Design Team: Great, it'll be live shortly!

That's not an accurate assessment they are still working on it.

The problem is on the feedback side.

1.This is for true melee only, so many don't want it if it's not for them.

2. It not for the elite players they don't need it, they need r11-20.

3. It's not perfect and they need to put some more work in 50% was not too much, there's no reason not to include Vanguard and touch range Heals it a good distance, uber tanks are very rare but they have to figure this all out.

4. They need to think about not making the meta to much stronger but to do that they have to know what the meta is not on a test dummy but in quests and raids.

5. They need to learn to stick to there guns and say it not for everyone understanding the feedback is bias, if they have put the time in to truly understand the situation there are no short cuts to the truth.

I still have faith in the SSG Team!!!

,

[Rog]

The problem has always been the ease a paladin and fighter can grab 20%.hp, 25 prr/mrr and +3 to saves for 13 enh points, leaving plenty of points to go full dps with a 2hander, 2wf or swf, as long as they wear a platemail
And why wouldn't a fighter, they have plenty of extra feats to fit in some heavy armor feats for even more prr&mrr(30)
Lets be honnest, 13 points is hardly a penalty for what it gives a fighter.
Plenty of splashes did the same.

But a melee isn't a tank and if you don't invest in defence, those hp will melt away in no time. I don't expect to see rogues dominating the solo scene as frontlike tanks
Thats why i don't understand the attitude of tank players to the initial proposal made by torc, beingn is more then having a lot of hp.
There is still a need for you.

the only point in tanking is hold aggro and stay alive which is done best by not being hit and having enough hp to survive the 1 and 20 blows that land.
rogues rock out dodge to get that done pretty cool.

[rarothrock]

I'm in the camp of adjusting things from the mob side. Trying to give melees HP by nerfing casting/ranged abilities is too narrow. If your problem is melees cannot handle getting hit in high reaper without getting 1-shot, then the solution seems to be:

1) Adjust the scaling reaper damage scale.

2) Rework the PRR damage scaling (my preferred option). The purpose of PRR is to reduce damage by a percentage. The purpose of reaper is to increase damage by a percentage. I suggest reworking the PRR damage reduction % factor. You could, in the process, make higher PRR available for melees (any number of ways) or nerf PRR for casters/ranged (also in a number of ways). Either way, allowing PRR to block a higher percentage of incoming damage seems more effective than trying to tinker with a defensive melee stance that nerfs casting and ranged abilities.

[kuzka111]

so melee survivability to you guys is give all better fighter stance (25%) and fighter will get 5% more and 3 ap less to use on stance right? hm... just great (sarcasm)

and 2nd thing nerf to power surge. Yes nerf bc atm i got 14 power surge(without capstone , with item i could have 17) and you offer 8 with capstone... awsome...


so tell me is fighter that much op then other melee? or you just hate him?


monk's are op now and then get 25% hp boost
barb will have 25% more hp and 14% reduction
ranger and rogue get 25% more hp

fighter get 5% and power surge nerf AWSOME IDEA! ( sarcasm)

and yes i play fighter i got all plx3 (129 past lifes) i got 78 reaper ap and without cc or good healer im dead , even with healer and some good champ im dead (1 shoted) and you give fighter 5% hp more...

[Sormiron]

I dont quite like how it is limiting warpriests and I guess the none-existant eldritch knight aswell as not working for vanguard. I am not sure what the impact is on bards if there is any.

Mayhaps it would be better to put the HP in enhancement cores in waiting to scale in epic levels.

My thought would be to have it in mayhaps 18th-20th level core in eldritch knight and warpriest. quite high up since they are spellcasters and they need to invest a lot to get it.

6th level core in melee classes to alow multiclasses to get it. 6 levels in a melee class seriously weakens spellcasting anyhow.

Maybe it could follow the same restrictions to melee feats, but not spellcasting range.

Just a sugestion.

[Tilomere]

I dont quite like how it is limiting warpriests and I guess the none-existant eldritch knight aswell as not working for vanguard.

It works excellent for fighter vangaurd. As a fighter for example, you can capstone 41 point kensai for power surge charges, and 39 point C5 T5 shield rush in vangaurd, then use this stance for 25% hit points. This saves 13 AP you would normally need to spend in StD, opening up a new build while retaining the % hp. Plus a fighter has feats to spare to activate it.

This allows removing the 13 AP in StD to better fill out a second offensive melee tree for more dps, like vangaurd, VKF, harper, or falconry (No Mercy). It is a net boost in fighter
and fighter splashed dps that previously sank 13 AP into StD. Kensai-Warpriests, for example, will also be able to drop StD, and better fill in a secondary dps tree like falconry for more dps.

Right now StD is basically "mandatory." They are making it optional. That's a great change.

My other feedback is to make this stance available at level 1. Pure melee in heroics could use help, and it would give me a legitimate reason to not heal anyone 1-30 instead of only 21-30.

[noobodyfool]

It works excellent for fighter vangaurd. As a fighter for example, you can capstone 41 point kensai for power surge charges, and 39 point C5 T5 shield rush in vangaurd, then use this stance for 25% hit points. This saves 13 AP you would normally need to spend in StD, opening up a new build while retaining the % hp. Plus a fighter has feats to spare to activate it.

This allows removing the 13 AP in StD to better fill out a second offensive melee tree for more dps, like vangaurd, VKF, harper, or falconry (No Mercy). .

At the original 50% as it was intended I would agree other wise Vanguard get much less than every other melee and if you wear heavy armor it put limits on your options

So I disagree with you.

It should stack with Shield feats except shield deflection if they want to keep it from tanks.

[Grace_ana]

it would give me a legitimate reason to not heal anyone 1-30 instead of only 21-30.

And it begins.

[noobodyfool]

And it begins.

Touch range is really large and if you don't fight on the front lines you should be the one healing anyway

[Tilomere]

And it begins.

Technically not wanting to babysit others (a garden in this parable) and wanting personal achievement and knowledge goes back to Adam, Eve, and the knowledge of good and evil.

[Qhualor]

Touch range is really large and if you don't fight on the front lines you should be the one healing anyway

you obviously didn't go onto Lamannia to test this.

[noobodyfool]

you obviously didn't go onto Lamannia to test this.

check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxxxc6g-wvw

[noobodyfool]

you obviously didn't go onto Lamannia to test this.

check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxxxc6g-wvw it shows the distance