Melee Survivability Changes Feedback Thread

[Sebastrd]

The problem has always been the ease a paladin and fighter can grab 20%.hp, 25 prr/mrr and +3 to saves for 13 enh points

Since when has this "always been a problem"? I can get +1 to-hit, damage, and spell power; Int to-hit and damage; +1 to a stat; and max KtA for 13 EP in a universal tree.

It's okay for players to get cool stuff. In fact, if we couldn't, it probably wouldn't be worth playing the game. Is there some kind of weird self-hatred among DDO players?

[sjbb87]

If we can make the 25-50% HP buff exclusive with Shield mastery where it don't work if you take Shield deflection Vanguard's can use it.

1. Shield mastery

2. Improved Shield mastery

3. Perfect Shield mastery

4. Shield bash

5. Improved Shield bash

It is better to cancel stance when equipping a shield ....

[noobodyfool]

It is better to cancel stance when equipping a shield ....

Just until we can get it back to 50% at it should be then we can say WAI.

[noinfo]

Sorry excluding Tank builds from this is just utter garbage.

The design principals I can get behind. The fact that base HD of class makes little difference to total hp makes sense that some balance needs to happen. I can also get behind ranged vs melee concept for a melee only buff.

However Tanks already give up a substantial amount of everything else and to be put behind on HP is just plain stupid.
DPS fighters and Pallies can already go into the tree to get 20%, they should maintain that 20% bonus on top of other melee. saying that the stance etc offers many other things is a cop out.

Shields should be part of the fighting style HP bonus.
Tanks with another 25% base HP (not total) are not going to be soloing dungeons.

If you are for some reason worries that fighters and ever funnier that pallies will dominate with that extra 25% then tie the 20% one to only wearing a shield rather than shield and or medium/heavy Armour. I can understand the reluctance when it was a 50% buff but 25% that it is now +20% that is currently available is less than the 50% that you originally proposed.

[btolson]

Shields should be part of the fighting style HP bonus.

They won't allow shield feats for this, because casters take those feats (and more oftenly would if the benefits become greater). Shiradi for instance will not be limited by the stance casting restrictions much at all, or cloud druids. Any caster that circle kites through CC (whether it's sleet storm or otto's or whatever), can use this stance just fine because shocking grasp range is not all that short.

Shiradi might make use of the stance anyway though. They often have plenty of feats/build points to spare, and taking TWF chain would grant an easy 20% HP in epics, 25% if they don't have a better L26 feat to take (probable). Other casters might care too much about DCs for that, but you never know.

Caster DPS is obviously not meta currently, but it seems likely something will change about that soonish, and you will see these builds again often, just with more HP.

[KingNite]

I got the full 25%, about 500 HP

Yeah what I meant is that it is probably giving you more like 15-20% of you total hp, even if it works correctly at 25% because some sources of HP ( like vitality and others ) may not benefit from the 25% increase. Anyway even if it was a real 25% it is not enough to overcome the grief of not being able to heal others. I don't see much use for it except for making the already easy low difficulties where you don't have to heal much even easier. Or to solo. As it is right now, I don't think you will see people using it much on the highest skulls unless there is a dedicated healer around, so maybe in some raids.

[noinfo]

They won't allow shield feats for this, because casters take those feats (and more oftenly would if the benefits become greater). Shiradi for instance will not be limited by the stance casting restrictions much at all, or cloud druids. Any caster that circle kites through CC (whether it's sleet storm or otto's or whatever), can use this stance just fine because shocking grasp range is not all that short.

Shiradi might make use of the stance anyway though. They often have plenty of feats/build points to spare, and taking TWF chain would grant an easy 20% HP in epics, 25% if they don't have a better L26 feat to take (probable). Other casters might care too much about DCs for that, but you never know.

Caster DPS is obviously not meta currently, but it seems likely something will change about that soonish, and you will see these builds again often, just with more HP.

I am not really worried about any caster getting any benefit from this. It will only be a shiradi because DC have no feats and taking any others would gimp themselves. Shiradi with this and kiting them through sleet storm being an issue? You would expect them to give up a ranged dps attack for kiting through sleet storm for some hp? They present pretty much 0 issue here at all and if they gave up ranged ruin, gruin and their mm spam for those extra hp or having to use them at melee range, I am ok with that.

And for DC casters? Those without enlarge are doing it wrong, those with this feat turned on... Let them have that 25% extra hp! they deserve it too!

[btolson]

I'm just explaining why the devs won't do it. It's also in the way they present drive-by-touch-healing as highly viable. They don't want casters to have it, but are afraid of the meta builds that'll successfully be able to anyway.

I don't think anyone has bothered putting that much thought into meta-ing it yet, because it seems sketchy whether this will go live or not. But if it does, they will. Meta always finds a way.

[Claver]

Here are my findings from playing around with Epic Defensive Fighting (EDF)

To be clear....I am reporting what works as intended as well as what might need adjustment. From a testing perspective, it is useful to have both reported

Falconer: (1/2 elf wisdom to damage Arcane Archer)

- All ranged bird attacks function...unclear if ranged power set to zero for those attacks (probably...but more testing needed)

Bladeforged Greatsword Paladin

- 2 handed fighting lines give the expected amount of HP increase EDF
- Hit points from Sacred Defender stack
- Hit points from unyielding sentinel stack

Gnome Ninja Monk


- 2 weapon fighting lines give the expected amount of HP increase EDF
- Ki Bolt range reduced
- Quivering Palm, touch of death and other monk melee attacks working through short sword


Undead Zombie Warlock Warforged Wizard Monk

- 2 weapon fighting lines give the expected amount of HP increase EDF
- Sticken and Consume range reduced
- Undead healing from death aura works while in EDF
- Temporary hitpoints from shinning through stack with EDF
- Spirit Blast and Eldritch burst work while in EDF stance
- Hurl Through Hell seems to have no range restrictions while in EDF
- Eldritch Aura Stance cancels EDF

Draconic Incarnation Fire Elemental melee druid

- 2 weapon fighting lines give the expected amount of HP increase EDF
- Earthquake and Quench range reduced
- Temporary hitpoints from Winters Heart stack with EDF
- Draconic Breath Weapon, Flyby attack, Daunting Roar, Energy Sheath and Energy burst work while in EDF stance
- Energy Vortex and Body of the Sun work normally while in EDF
- Heal over time mass vigor/regenerate spells work when targeted on caster

[SirValentine]

Epic Defensive Fighting - Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.
This is a new Epic Feat automatically granted at level 21. This is a toggled ability that when active:
Adds a 5% Competence Bonus to maximum Hit Points, with an additional 5% for every combat fighting style feat you have, to a maximum of 25%.

The Paladin Defensive Stance Hit Point buff has been changed to Competency, which it always was, but the text was incorrect.

Are "Competence" and "Competency" meant to be two different things, or the same thing? The similar-but-not-identical naming makes this unclear.

The feat can be used with other defensive and offensive stances

This seems extremely and deliberately misleading, since it doesn't stack with, and is actually bigger than, things like Stalwart Defense stance HP bonus. So why would anyone spend 13+ AP for a 20% stance that doesn't stack when you're going to give them a 25% stance for free?

All Spell or spell-like abilities that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range.

So my melees now have an excuse to not bother with teamwork anymore.

[Niminae]

Do forumites ever quit whinning about changes? "Why isnt this happening? Why isnt that happening?"

Please preview the melee survivability changes on Lamannia, and get us your feedback based on your actual on-Lamannia experience if you can. Thanks!

You see whining, I see the feedback which was requested. Is your glass always half empty?

[Niminae]

The point of this buff was to improve surviviability on people who play melee, not tanks, tanks dont need more hp

*Boggle* Tanks are by their very definition melee. Chewbacca lives on Endor.


The Epic Defensive Fighting feat is just terribad.

Monks who have very little use for ranged spells and who are arguably at the top of the melee meta get the full benefit.

Paladins who have a use for ranged spells and who are arguably at the bottom of the melee meta get zero benefit.

One has to wonder exactly what the devs were thinking when they wasted their time crafting this turd. What kind of design logic involves advancing the front-runner while leaving those in last place where they were? Furthering the power spread between the classes is just a poor plan all around.

[Gywiden]

The long cooldown is a bit painful on Druids that already have long cooldowns in animal forms. if you switch to Epic Defensive fighting then do all your buffs, your party is going to be waiting on you a long time--an issue I already deal with as a druid. It'd be nice if they were exempt from Epic Defensive Fighting's cooldown or if it were at least lowered dramatically.

[KingNite]

Monks who have very little use for ranged spells and who are arguably at the top of the melee meta get the full benefit.

Paladins who have a use for ranged spells and who are arguably at the bottom of the melee meta get zero benefit.

That's true. Keep the reduced range for all the spells/abilities except healing ones would solve it quite easily.

[noobodyfool]

Here are my findings from playing around with Epic Defensive Fighting (EDF)

To be clear....I am reporting what works as intended as well as what might need adjustment. From a testing perspective, it is useful to have both reported

Falconer: (1/2 elf wisdom to damage Arcane Archer)

- All ranged bird attacks function...unclear if ranged power set to zero for those attacks (probably...but more testing needed)

Bladeforged Greatsword Paladin

- 2 handed fighting lines give the expected amount of HP increase EDF
- Hit points from Sacred Defender stack
- Hit points from unyielding sentinel stack

Gnome Ninja Monk


- 2 weapon fighting lines give the expected amount of HP increase EDF
- Ki Bolt range reduced
- Quivering Palm, touch of death and other monk melee attacks working through short sword


Undead Zombie Warlock Warforged Wizard Monk

- 2 weapon fighting lines give the expected amount of HP increase EDF
- Sticken and Consume range reduced
- Undead healing from death aura works while in EDF
- Temporary hitpoints from shinning through stack with EDF
- Spirit Blast and Eldritch burst work while in EDF stance
- Hurl Through Hell seems to have no range restrictions while in EDF
- Eldritch Aura Stance cancels EDF

Draconic Incarnation Fire Elemental melee druid

- 2 weapon fighting lines give the expected amount of HP increase EDF
- Earthquake and Quench range reduced
- Temporary hitpoints from Winters Heart stack with EDF
- Draconic Breath Weapon, Flyby attack, Daunting Roar, Energy Sheath and Energy burst work while in EDF stance
- Energy Vortex and Body of the Sun work normally while in EDF
- Heal over time mass vigor/regenerate spells work when targeted on caster

EDF stacking with shining through not good

[Propane]

I totally agree that shield feats should be included. Vanguard is a DPS tree built around shield use...

Without including shield feats - you are pushing Vanguards to use Daxe or Bstward and THF to get stance.

With all of the other weapons in the game this is a shame.

Please consider allowing the Power Attack / Cleave / Great Cleave "style" to allow stance. I use this feat group on a lot of my Sword and Board builds. This would help may builds / and Vanguards I woulds suspect...

[TitusOvid]

Tried out some divine melee, formost cleric and fvs.
I have to change my playstyle massively. Basically I have to decide if I want to step back and heal (toggle off) or if I go in and be of not much use for heals (toggle on) or go in and toggle off like before. With Warsoul I wanted to be more hands on with my divines but this Toggle doesn't work with my strategies.
Since not using the toggle doesn't change anything for me I don't see it as a disadvantage per se but divine melee classes won't get much out of it. I guess those builds are niche builds at best but with this change they might grow extinct.


Edit: This change is a bad idea. I don't think it will benefit the balancing via HP only because I don't think the HP is the real problem here. It is just the easiest way around the problem. Why not adjust the damage output of the mobs?
And it will force people to build in a specific way, nicking one of the best features in ddo in the bud, build variety.
So this solution is coming from the wrong side. Change the opponents not the player characters.

[Ballrus]

Make the bonus apply only when wearing medium/heavy armor.
Monks, rangers, vkf rogues not need more power! They already have evasion/improved evasion, high dodge etc.

[Thrudh]

Make the bonus apply only when wearing medium/heavy armor.
Monks, rangers, vkf rogues not need more power! They already have evasion/improved evasion, high dodge etc.

That's not a terrible idea.

[-ninay-]

Tenacious Defense of the paladin sacred defender has always been sacred bonus. Why change it to competence? To make
Poor paladins more gimp by not letting the sacred hp buff stack with the epic defensive stance? They're already at the bottom when it comes to DPS, now weaker hp compared to the much higher dps class lol.

Yeah it can be used with defensive stance from enhancement but it will only give 5%.
So.. what's the point of having a defensive tree and wasting 14 AP to be in stance in fighter/pally when they can get 25% higher hp buff from Epic defensive stance for free?