Melee Survivability Changes Feedback Thread

[Nubom70]

Making this another toggle is a horrible implementation.

If you're going to even start down this path, just add passive % HPs to the weapon fighting and shield feat lines, so all melee types can boost,
and skip this selective "certain builds only" trap. Actual tanks get hosed by this entire idea, and it's supposed to be a melee survivability toggle?

Edited to make the post kinder than it was. Sort of.

[sjbb87]

I think the people are giving a lot of rage here.
They made it clear that this is the first step, calm down.

[Grace_ana]

I think the people are giving a lot of rage here.
They made it clear that this is the first step, calm down.

Generally speaking, when things are on Lama, they are pushing forward with them in some way. Also, all these points were made before, and the Lama version is not taking into account that feedback. It's something that has the potential to really, REALLY screw up the game badly. So yeah, people are angry, and telling them to calm down after they've gotten to this point for a reason shows a lack of comprehension as to why they are angry in the first place.

[noobodyfool]

High MRR is most definitely better than Improved Evasion overall, and especially in Reaper. MRR works on rays, dots, cyclone (a common thing now as it is a Reaper spell), hellball, fort spells, etc. So while it is true that Improved Evasion is superior on spells that Evasion works against, the "everything else" puts MRR in a better position. My S&B character can run through many situations that my Monk will face-plant in, and evasion spells are reduced to ignorable numbers anyways due to the double MRR from shield anyways. The spells that MRR doesn't help against, Improved Evasion doesn't help either on. Horrid Wilting from R10 reapers is still stoopid. I'd gladly change Imp Evasion for high MRR. My Monk will never be able to tank Reaper Baba without high MRR.

Monks, rangers, vkf rogues are not meta because their dodge/imp evasion makes them able to survivable - it is because CC (and thus casters) are king and towing along DPS is the meta, and those classes fit that meta. Soloing an R10 on a warlock is just a matter of getting your DCs in line. Doing so on an "OP monk" is an exercise in futility on anything outside of specific low-density quests.

Having Reaper balanced in a way where "you can't get hit" simply goes against melee, and needs to be changed in some form. If they change it away from the meta being just a caster with pocket DPS as the only real viable party make-up, then that opens up metas. Tanks that are not just 0 DPS intim turtles. The ability to PUG without a pre-determined party makeup, which could open up the LFMs majorly.

There is the question if this is the right move. The touch penalty I definitely don't think should apply to healing moves -- I feel that is counter-productive to the "you must heal each-other" goal of Reaper, and kicks melee healers and Paladins in the plums. OFFENSIVE and CC spells should face this penalty, but not healing. I also feel that it should stack for tanks. This will allow for tanks to break from the 0 DPS pile of kittens, or for those that still go that route, to be able to tank larger groups without the caster CC. I completely disagree with the sentiment that light/no armors should be excluded. Allowing the DPS oriented melee classes to escape the 1-shot range won't change the meta -- caster CC + pocket DPS will likely always be the top option (which is not a bad thing really), but it should not be the only option for these classes.


Though speaking of Intimidate Tanks... any word on fixing Ki Shout to properly use Concentration again?

So your OVER POWERED monk has improved evasion 45 dodge 250 prr 50 mrrp 2000HP great cc's the best Dps in the game and at what point does that 50 mrr come in to play, almost never incomparason to a heavy armor dps toon.

Is there a reason why no meta dps wear heavy armor ?

This is why light and cloth armor is king in soloing reaper 6+!

This is why fonders think its a good idea to tank in light armor to avoid magic damage!

Finally this is why heavy armor is broken and we need armor up 2.

Heavy Armor 25% AC and MRR

[sjbb87]

Generally speaking, when things are on Lama, they are pushing forward with them in some way. Also, all these points were made before, and the Lama version is not taking into account that feedback. It's something that has the potential to really, REALLY screw up the game badly. So yeah, people are angry, and telling them to calm down after they've gotten to this point for a reason shows a lack of comprehension as to why they are angry in the first place.

First, it is not required.

second, they accept feedback, have changed from 50% to 25%

Third have warned that there will be more things ahead.

Fourth after the tests, this feat is not so much, as it increased 25% of HP base + const, before applying other bonuses. a character with 1000 hp will receive something around 170 extra hp and not the 250

[blerkington]

First, it is not required.

Not required, but will certainly be used by some people at the cost of looking after other group members. Failing in that it encourages people into difficulties for which they may not be ready and reduces their incentive for cooperative play.

second, they accept feedback, have changed from 50% to 25%

Overall not really accepting feedback, in that the stance still negatively affects our ability to heal each other, doesn't work for melee builds that also sometimes cast or range, and seems to have an oddly long cooldown that affects other abilities too.

Third have warned that there will be more things ahead.

They've said there may be more changes ahead. We don't know if they will occur or what they will be. Difficult to evaluate this change in isolation.

Fourth after the tests, this feat is not so much, as it increased 25% of HP base + const, before applying other bonuses. a character with 1000 hp will receive something around 170 extra hp and not the 250

Stance is not doing a good job of helping everyone who might need help and is still most beneficial to strongest characters. Reducing the buff from 50% to 25% suggests it's not really intended to help underperforming players but more as a bribe for accepting for the changes to healing.

Thanks.

[noobodyfool]

First, it is not required.

second, they accept feedback, have changed from 50% to 25%

Third have warned that there will be more things ahead.

Fourth after the tests, this feat is not so much, as it increased 25% of HP base + const, before applying other bonuses. a character with 1000 hp will receive something around 170 extra hp and not the 250

Yes it's too bad after they put in all that work all thos hours of testing and observing the truth they let lies water down what could have been a meaningful buff for melee.

I'm seeing this go one of two ways

1. The Devs come up with good things to help melee and the elitists complain to get it water down to the point of half measures.
Fallowed by NERFS to the META to finish balancing the game.

2. The elitists stop fighting everything let the game be balanced and direct their energy to getting DEEP SKULLs full of mush aka (CC's beat helded mobs get loot rinse repeat till you get mythic bonuses on every pice of gear because they love a challenge) to getting reaper 6-10 difficulty buffed!

[lyrecono]

The long cooldown is a bit painful on Druids that already have long cooldowns in animal forms. if you switch to Epic Defensive fighting then do all your buffs, your party is going to be waiting on you a long time--an issue I already deal with as a druid. It'd be nice if they were exempt from Epic Defensive Fighting's cooldown or if it were at least lowered dramatically.

I was able to buff fine with the feat on using clickies and scrolls, were there druid buff spells that were blocked with the hp feat on?
Anyway, lynn said on lama that the cooldown was a known issue.

EDF stacking with shining through not good

Agreed, on the other hand, i know of only 1 decent reaper warlock tank atm
And i know of a dwarven fighter14, warlock 6 that does ok, maybe we should limit the hp from this buff to medium& heavy armor and link it somehow to the bab? Lets say a 1% hard cap for every point of unbuffed& uncentred bab?
Then let the fighter and pally stances raise that hard cap by 10/15/20 depending on the amount of enh points user for their hp enh
And 15/20/25 for bear druids ofc

If the idea is: be smart and only kill cc'ed mobs", why we need AC, prr, mrr etc?
Just kick the high defense player, and invite another CC.

Thats roughly what has been hapening in the endgame meta groups in my neck of the woods.

Just pointing out outfits(monks) and robes have a capped MRR of 50.

A cap that can be raised by 40, as mentioned before.
To be fair, dots and cyclonic blasts are the biggest problem for low mrr toons. sonic absorbtion migh help there or a tank&healer....
(Runs for cover)
A monk doesn't have that much weaknesses, a low mrr balances things out a bit.
If i remember correctly, i thought the devs were planning to raise the mrr cap on cloth anway.

In all honnesty, i wouldn't be opposed to an armor sentient gem that can only take a limited amount of tailer made defensive fillagree sets, max 4 slots, 5 with a spark. Sets that focus on certain class&gear limitations.
If the devs only allow them on epic raid armor and focus on low stat bufs so power creep doesn't rear it's ugly head.

Jacky chans lightning Defense

2 Pieces: +5 Magical Resistance Rating
3 Pieces: +1 to all saving throws.
4 Pieces: +1 con,+5 mrr
5 Pieces: Your Max MRR Cap is increased by 25-35
Jacky chans lightning Defense: Cold Absorption +5% Cold Absorption +2 MRR
Jacky chans lightning Defense: Constitution +1 Constitution +2 PRR
Jacky chans lightning Defense: Electric Absorption +5% Electrical Absorption +2 MRR
Jacky chans lightning Defense: Fire Absorption +5% Acid Absorption +2 MRR
Jacky chans lightning Defense: MRR +3 Magical Resistance Rating +2 MRR
Jacky chans lightning Defense: Sonic Absorption +10% Sonic Absorption +2 MRR
Jacky chans lightning Defense: Will +1 monk DC +2 MRR
Jacky chans lightning Defense: +3 deflecion bonus to AC, +2PRR
Equipeble on cloth only
Shouldnt stack with nystule ofcourse.

Something simular could be made for barbs to fix their lack of prr and mrr in their trees

Conans tenacity

2 Pieces: +1 con +3 Melee Power, PRR and MRR
3 Pieces: when you make your save or sr check, the spell is refleced onto the enemy caster, 20% chance

Conans tenacity: spell resistance +12 sr +MRR
Conans tenacity: Physical Resistance Rating +3 Physical Resistance Rating +2 MRR
Conans tenacity: Will +2 Will saving throws +2 MRR
Conans tenacity: Constitution +1 Constitution +2 PRR
Conans tenacity: DR +1DR, only works if you have the class feature. +2MRR


Ignore the silly names.

[sjbb87]

I was thinking differently. This feat could add maximum bonus armor, so other melee builds could get a bit closer to the monks.

And another point I would like to mention is add other strength building advantages.


Dexterity gets hit, damage, reflex, AC
Wisdom gets hit, damage, will, AC
Constitution receives damage, Hit points, Fortitude
Intelligence gets Hit, damage, skill points gained each level, Insightful Reflexes
Charisma gets hit, damage, Force of Personality, Divine Might, Divine Grace


Strength is only hit, damage

I'm not asking to give more DPS, but another bonus.
I have already migrated two of my three main characters to another type of hit and damage (rogue to build dexterity, and my fvs to build based on wisdom) and the way this one will migrate my other as well.

[DrawingGuy]

So your OVER POWERED monk has improved evasion 45 dodge 250 prr 50 mrrp 2000HP great cc's the best Dps in the game and at what point does that 50 mrr come in to play, almost never incomparason to a heavy armor dps toon.

The 45 dodge is indeed one of the specialties of Monk, like a Rogue has as well. The 250 PRR is available to everyone and their dog (including casters and ranged) -- the 20 PRR from Shintao is less than even what Light Armor can give (though is better while leveling), and the Henshin cores are not really worth it anyways beyond the first. The proposed stance would be incompatible with Henshin abilities as well. Though quoting numbers that it takes gobs of past lives to obtain I don't think means much. The 50 MRR is quite a disadvantage, and comes into play quite often: EVERY SINGLE REAPER quest has spells that Monk Evasion doesn't work on because Reapers themselves have such spells, making MRR matter. The 2000HP is another factor that anyone can get (including casters and ranged). The 35 HP potential that you can get from enhancements is hardly a real factor in that calculation, and looking at Earth stance is incompatible with the Dodge (Water stance) that you're going off for that potential. It is again just a matter of Reaper XP and Past Lives that everyone can go for.

I'm not denying that Monks are the tankier of the light/no armor classes, but the defenses are no grand miracle box. Anyone can go for respectable defenses - it's just that I never needed to on my ranged/caster classes. I can solo reapers on my first life mechanic, and Reapers get constantly easier on my casters due to spell pen and DCs being given to me.

The CCs on a Monk are indeed pretty good, and I'd argue an Ice build Bard or a Vanguard is even better -- but a Monk's CC is definitely not good enough to handle the mob density of modern quests unless they all come perfectly clumped for Dire Charges.

Is there a reason why no meta dps wear heavy armor ?

This is mainly because much of the meta DPS light armor classes either have disqualifiers in their enhancements for wearing Medium/Heavy armor, and they don't have the enhancements or feats that give Medium/Heavy armor the MRR advantage that would outweigh having Evasion.

This is why light and cloth armor is king in soloing reaper 6+!

Guessing you're listing as low as 6 as that is where it is still OK to be a melee without just being a pocket DPS to a caster. While I admit I haven't been looking, I haven't seen any posts or videos of people soloing R10 on a Monk/Ranger/Rogue. Care to share these with me, as I do like to learn how to improve my builds. On a caster, though, quite a different story...

This is why fonders think its a good idea to tank in light armor to avoid magic damage!

Indeed there used to be some rock > paper > scissors logic to heavy and light armors, especially in the introduction of PRR. But that has since changed with the cap of 50 MRR on Monks and giving Reapers unevadable spells. Though I'm not asking that they give light or unarmored classes PRR and MRR that can rival heavy armor users - just that they should not be excluded from the survivability issues high Reaper has as ALL melees are struggling without a caster to carry them.

Finally this is why heavy armor is broken and we need armor up 2.

Heavy Armor 25% AC and MRR

I don't think heavy armor is broken at all. It's more that TWF and SWF is favored by classes that are better in light/no armor, and those are the superior DPS styles. THF is favored by the heavier armor classes, but currently needs a pass. Once THF is buffed, I expect the heavy armor classes to explode.

S&B is a tougher beast. Vanguard did a lot to make S&B builds viable, and were for a time even top DPS... but trying to balance the lower risk vs DPS reward can be tough. I think once they have the melee surivability and all the other melee DPS stances balanced more fairly, they can see where S&B should sit. As it stands, they're not tanky enough for R10 content short of 0 DPS builds, and if you are just tagging along with a caster, you might as well be a meta DPS class as there is no reason to give up DPS for survival when nothing can attack you.

[Requiro]

I guess it’s too late, to consider mine suggestion from general forum here:POST

Ok. So if Devs insist with Epic only, and almost without any scaling then please consider this:

• Change HP given from only 5% per feat to something like: 100HP bonus or 5% per feat depends witch is higher. Explanation: That will add at least 400-500 extra HP on every toon and veterans will get even more. That will help new melee players, without toons of TR and Reaper points to play on Reaper difficulty with other Veterans (if 100 HP is too much lower it to 75HP or even 50HP)
• Add exceptions to some most-popular-on-melees healing abilities like Cocoon from touch range. Explanation: That will still encourage teamplay. It look like everyone concern about no ability to heal each other with most popular healing abilities on melees.
• Made it half-stacking with tanks. The easiest way it’s change half bonus from competence to Racial. Thus everyone that got competence HP from Enhancements, get at least Half the bonuses from stance. Explanation: Tank don’t need more HP, but this kind of action will result in feeling like Tanks are still needed in reaper content. And if tanks want that HP bonus, they must take at least 3 fighting style feats anyway.

And one question (suggestion) about Barbarian new DR: Why not add additional 1% on Occult Slayer Capstone (Mind over Magic)? Explanation: Occult Slayer is the least taken Tree on Barbarian. Is that additional 1% change something? IDK – but at least give more reason to take that capstone.

[Wipey]

The 250 PRR is available to everyone and their dog (including casters and ranged) ~ The 2000HP is another factor that anyone can get (including casters and ranged).

It's not like this thread is going anywhere but still.
You can't get 2k hp and 250 prr on a caster without uber gimpage.

The CCs on a Monk are indeed pretty good, and I'd argue an Ice build Bard or a Vanguard

Noone plays "ice bard" or vanguard. Noone.
All I see is almost no fail Jadetombs and Kukandos.

I love great monk(s) in party but exaggerating numbers is not that cool.

[TitusOvid]

Don't change things on the player characters side. Change it on the enemies side.

There are too much build varities to make this a balanced/fair and good solution. This approach will kill a lot of that variety. Take another point of view. Don't just bloat hp on the players side. It would be way easier to reduce the damage from the mobs.
My Suggestions:
On melee attacks from the enemie
#1: Try to find a reasonable threshold of damage and reduce the damage of higher hitting mobs for n%.
#2: If you don't want to do that, how about this: Don't let them instakill the toons, if they are 90%HP or higher. Reduce the HP to 1 like Heal on Undead. That would help with aggro managing, too, cause of you got 1 HP you are removed from the Hate list.

Maybe excluded bosses from these rules.

Changing the damage output on enemies side is easier and more fair in my eyes.

[lyrecono]

I was thinking differently. This feat could add maximum bonus armor, so other melee builds could get a bit closer to the monks.

And another point I would like to mention is add other strength building advantages.


Dexterity gets hit, damage, reflex, AC
Wisdom gets hit, damage, will, AC
Constitution receives damage, Hit points, Fortitude
Intelligence gets Hit, damage, skill points gained each level, Insightful Reflexes
Charisma gets hit, damage, Force of Personality, Divine Might, Divine Grace


Strength is only hit, damage

I'm not asking to give more DPS, but another bonus.
I have already migrated two of my three main characters to another type of hit and damage (rogue to build dexterity, and my fvs to build based on wisdom) and the way this one will migrate my other as well.

The amount off ac on top end reaper tanks border on 400, what kind of ac do you think a barb or rog should get from those feats?

Str is under used, though makes for fun swimming matches( you still owe me a beer jessy).
Str does get used for tactical dc's and can be stacked higher then most other stats (as far as i know).

Don't change things on the player characters side. Change it on the enemies side.

There are too much build varities to make this a balanced/fair and good solution. This approach will kill a lot of that variety. Take another point of view. Don't just bloat hp on the players side. It would be way easier to reduce the damage from the mobs.
My Suggestions:
On melee attacks from the enemie
#1: Try to find a reasonable threshold of damage and reduce the damage of higher hitting mobs for n%.
#2: If you don't want to do that, how about this: Don't let them instakill the toons, if they are 90%HP or higher. Reduce the HP to 1 like Heal on Undead. That would help with aggro managing, too, cause of you got 1 HP you are removed from the Hate list.

Maybe excluded bosses from these rules.

Changing the damage output on enemies side is easier and more fair in my eyes.

Its what we told them years ago when armor up was introduced(mrr&prr)
The problem, as far as i understood back then, was that it was easier to use a piece of blanket coding to hand out prr&mrr then to go into every quest and adjust all the mobs by hand.

The problem was that the devs didn't learn from it and kept introducing higher stats on mobs.

The majority of the top tier players already noticed playing a versitile ranged caster was easier then trading blows with mobs that took 10+non critsto down but could kill you in 1-2 hits.
So when reaper reared it's head, a sollution was easily found by the top tier players and the rest of the population followed suit.

Hence the hp buff, i doubt its ok though, even with a 550-600 hp on a barb, i doubt we'll see 6 man barb parties dominating r10, though i'm willing to try if 5 top tier barbs are willing to join a r10 whiteplume/ravenloft quest series, nex time lama opens.

Devs are welcome to join in ofcourse

[sjbb87]

The amount off ac on top end reaper tanks border on 400, what kind of ac do you think a barb or rog should get from those feats?

Str is under used, though makes for fun swimming matches( you still owe me a beer jessy).
Str does get used for tactical dc's and can be stacked higher then most other stats (as far as i know).

Maybe +4 max dex armor bonus help a lot melee and tanks.

You can use half of mod wis,cha,int to tactical feats

[Hipparan]

I'd like to note something I did on Lamannia. I was able to create two types of Vanguards, a pure Fighter and a pure Paladin. The Fighter picked up both Shield Mastery Feats in addition to the full line of Two Handed Fighting including Perfect thanks to the bonus fighter feats. He was able to get the max benefit from Epic Defensive Fighting because of that.

My Paladin however was not able to get the same benefit. So not only does Fighter get so many extra feats over Paladin, Fighter Vanguards/Tanks can still use Epic Defensive Fighting while Paladins can still use it, but only with a 5% benefit. It's worth mentioning there's other discrepancies such as a Paladin's Sacred Shield Mastery not stacking with Unyielding Sentinel while Stalwart Shield Mastery does.

Basically if you want to make a Paladin tank now, just make an Aasimar Fighter.

[lyrecono]

Maybe +4 max dex armor bonus help a lot melee and tanks.

You can use half of mod wis,cha,int to tactical feats

Due to poor gear optimisation from ravenloft on, jugling str and con was a hassle, adding in dex? Maybe.
You can't skimp out on str a 100% unless you've got a compensation for the "to hit bonus", reaper mob ac or our "to hit" in reaper needs to hit certain numbers, a melee that can't hit is like a lv 30 wizard cc with a dc of 5, useless.

However, +4X4combat feats makes 16, that won't mean anything on a barb, you're still 200 ac behind the tank.
Nor would i want to have 400 ac on my barb. Hp, dr, buffs like displacement, sure, but ac? No i should get hit twice as much as a tank ( and survive some of it due to dr and large hp pool)

[sjbb87]

Due to poor gear optimisation from ravenloft on, jugling str and con was a hassle, adding in dex? Maybe.
You can't skimp out on str a 100% unless you've got a compensation for the "to hit bonus", reaper mob ac or our "to hit" in reaper needs to hit certain numbers, a melee that can't hit is like a lv 30 wizard cc with a dc of 5, useless.

However, +4X4combat feats makes 16, that won't mean anything on a barb, you're still 200 ac behind the tank.
Nor would i want to have 400 ac on my barb. Hp, dr, buffs like displacement, sure, but ac? No i should get hit twice as much as a tank ( and survive some of it due to dr and large hp pool)

More max dex armor bonus you can have more dodge includes barbarian with medium armor

[noobodyfool]

It's not like this thread is going anywhere but still.
You can't get 2k hp and 250 prr on a caster without uber gimpage.

Noone plays "ice bard" or vanguard. Noone.
All I see is almost no fail Jadetombs and Kukandos.

I love great monk(s) in party but exaggerating numbers is not that cool.

Monk numbers have not been exaggerated.

Ice Bards are bad ass but not as good as monks.

Vanguard had great CC's before nerf but now there's nothing special about them their dps was never close to meta their defense sucks because of how prr and mrr scale and you need kensi to make your Vanguard have any real punch.

Fighter's and Palidine got hit the hardest from reaper mechanics.

They need ether a complete overhaul or since all melee got screwed in reaper let the buffs STACK for them.

I don't think fighter need to be the META in DPS but they need more AC and or MRR so they can stay in Heavy Armor and not be forced to splash monk levels to have better defense and offense!

[HuneyMunster]

The 45 dodge is indeed one of the specialties of Monk, like a Rogue has as well. The 250 PRR is available to everyone and their dog (including casters and ranged) -- the 20 PRR from Shintao is less than even what Light Armor can give (though is better while leveling), and the Henshin cores are not really worth it anyways beyond the first. The proposed stance would be incompatible with Henshin abilities as well. Though quoting numbers that it takes gobs of past lives to obtain I don't think means much. The 50 MRR is quite a disadvantage, and comes into play quite often: EVERY SINGLE REAPER quest has spells that Monk Evasion doesn't work on because Reapers themselves have such spells, making MRR matter. The 2000HP is another factor that anyone can get (including casters and ranged). The 35 HP potential that you can get from enhancements is hardly a real factor in that calculation, and looking at Earth stance is incompatible with the Dodge (Water stance) that you're going off for that potential. It is again just a matter of Reaper XP and Past Lives that everyone can go for.

I'm not denying that Monks are the tankier of the light/no armor classes, but the defenses are no grand miracle box. Anyone can go for respectable defenses - it's just that I never needed to on my ranged/caster classes. I can solo reapers on my first life mechanic, and Reapers get constantly easier on my casters due to spell pen and DCs being given to me.

The CCs on a Monk are indeed pretty good, and I'd argue an Ice build Bard or a Vanguard is even better -- but a Monk's CC is definitely not good enough to handle the mob density of modern quests unless they all come perfectly clumped for Dire Charges.

Light armor only gives me 2 PRR over Shintoa 20 PRR. I can get another 10 using Tenser scrolls and get 6 from Light Armor Mastery from Assassin. So basically 8 more than monk without Tensers. My Assassin can only reach 34 dodge in light armor and 44 dodge in cloth for 10 seconds are sneaking for 5 seconds. I could get more max dodge and dexterity bonus from Acrobat, but would have huge reduction on dps due to loss of most of Vistani enhancements and/or KtA, while Acrobat offers nothing other than the dodge and potentially 3 Dexterity. A monk in Earth stance would have similar dodge and more PRR than an Assassin in light armor.

If I was to drop Astral Plane for Ethereal Plane i would be down to 30 dodge, but my assassinate dc will be below 100 with the bonus from Measure the Foe. Quivering Palm is easier to get above 100 due to either KtA or Deadly Instincts and +4 from reaper tactics in Dread adding to the DC. QP also has a shorter cooldown with less restrictive use outside of Ki as well as bonuses on a failed attempt and its not interrupted when either being hit, avoiding hits or monster knows of his presence.