Melee Survivability Changes Feedback Thread

[voxson5]

No access to Lam from work for me but,

Anyone tested enlarge with the spell range nerf?

Any effect on aura type effects or concecration?

[Cordovan]

No access to Lam from work for me but,

Anyone tested enlarge with the spell range nerf?

Any effect on aura type effects or concecration?

It has no impact on the Concentration skill. I am not sure what you mean by aura-type effects, but it does not prevent you from casting dancing ball, for example.

[Dragavon]

It has no impact on the Concentration skill. I am not sure what you mean by aura-type effects, but it does not prevent you from casting dancing ball, for example.

Concecration Cordovan, not concentration

[Kaboom2112]

Raise the buff to 50% and have it stack with defenders stance.

And don't nerf fighters FFS

[noobodyfool]

Tanks are already at 6000+ HP. They don't have problems surviving in the content in question.

However, I agree with you about the stacking. Especially at 25%. If you aren't going to do that then all you are doing is buffing Monks, Rangers, Barbs, and Rogues and damaging class balance.

+1

Fighters n pallys seem to be getting a bit of the stubby stick

If it's not going to stack please consider buffing AC for heavy armor n medium armor in later steps :

[Arix]

On the current Lama build, Aasimar HP and Paladin Sacred Defense stance HP Bonuses are not stacking. They have been explicitly changed to allow this stacking, due to changing Aasimar to Sacred, and Paladin to Competence, however they definitely do not stack. This is odd, as they currently do stack on live. Since Aasimar is now Sacred, and Paladin Competence, these should stack. It seems someone has forgotten to change a type here.

[voxson5]

It has no impact on the Concentration skill. I am not sure what you mean by aura-type effects, but it does not prevent you from casting dancing ball, for example.

Rolled a 1 on reading check?

So aoe healing effects, the size of the effect remains the same, but the target is limited to caster while under the effect of the epic defenses feat?

Back to old school 'heals on me, be close or die' melee divines?

[KingNite]

Raise the buff to 50% and have it stack with defenders stance.

Have you tested/tryed it on lama? If so, how much was your total HP before toggling the feat and how much extra HP is it giving you at 25%? Like 400? I'm quite sure it will be way lower than a real 25% of your previous Hp since a lot of hp sources will not benefit from the 25%.

[Wongar]

I tried turning on the Epic Defense Fighting Feat on an ES Warlock and noticed the total HP went down. After looking more closely as to why it seems that Erdritch Aura and Epic Defense Fighting are exclusive of each other. Is this WAI?

I didn't see anywhere in the notes or discussion thread stating the this. For an ES capstone Warlock it does not make much difference as the Epic Defense Fighting Feat and the Warlock 20% capstone HP don't stack. However, for a melee Warlock that splashed something for better melee abilities this is major disadvantage.

[Hipparan]

I tried turning on the Epic Defense Fighting Feat on an ES Warlock and noticed the total HP went down. After looking more closely as to why it seems that Erdritch Aura and Epic Defense Fighting are exclusive of each other. Is this WAI?

I didn't see anywhere in the notes or discussion thread stating the this. For an ES capstone Warlock it does not make much difference as the Epic Defense Fighting Feat and the Warlock 20% capstone HP don't stack. However, for a melee Warlock that splashed something for better melee abilities this is major disadvantage.

This is WAI. Epic Defensive Fighting does not work with any of the Eldritch Blast shapes, and this includes the aura.

[axel15810]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxxxc6g-wvw

^ Video above I made from Lamannia showing how some of this works for those interested including cooldown, offensive casting range with toggle on, ect.

Feedback -

- Paladin sacred defender stance currently is stacking with epic defensive fighting. Hoping devs had a change of heart and it goes live like this but figure it won't since devs have stated as such. I'll second other opinions that this really should stack with the fighter/pally/druid stances. I still very much disagree with the decision to not let it stack. Devs, please reconsider. HP is the main big thing tanks build for and love building for. I don't understand the balance design reasoning behind taking this advantage away from them in comparison to DPS melees. IMO it takes away the main reason to build a stalwart, sacred defender or bear tank in the first place since you can now get a higher competence HP boost with no AP investment and way better DPS to boot by just going with a DPS oriented build. I don't understand the logic here with this design decision.

- Casting an offensive spell while out of range eats spellpoints even though spell doesn't activate. Assuming it's WAI but would be nice if it instead gave you a range error message that didn't eat spellpoints instead - sort of like what happens currently when you try to heal someone out of range with this stance on.

- Can we get rid of the activation delay and cooldown completely? It's going to be impractical to switch this on during encounters for hybrid builds. Right now it seems like there's a 3 second or so activation time, and moving interrupts it. With this functioning like this I don't see it being practical to switch it on for hybrid builds during encounters if they want to go in and melee. Maybe that's your intent but I was assuming it'd be possible to toggle it off and on more on the fly.

- Minor, but description of feat still says 10% for each feat even though it was changed to 5%.

[Kaboom2112]

Have you tested/tryed it on lama? If so, how much was your total HP before toggling the feat and how much extra HP is it giving you at 25%? Like 400? I'm quite sure it will be way lower than a real 25% of your previous Hp since a lot of hp sources will not benefit from the 25%.

I got the full 25%, about 500 HP

[Tilomere]

I approve of this change merely because it gives me a legitimate reason to let all the unprepared players simply die in reaper as I solo the dungeon.

I only wish this could be activated in heroics as well.

And not for the hit points.

[noobodyfool]

I approve of this change merely because it gives me a legitimate reason to let all the unprepared players simply die in reaper as I solo the dungeon.

I only wish this could be activated in heroics as well.

And not for the hit points.

Looking forward to it get me that xp

[Renvar]

HP is the main big thing tanks build for and love building for. I don't understand the balance design reasoning behind taking this advantage away from them in comparison to DPS melees.

This is a melee DPS buff. Not a tank buff. That said Fighter is one of the top melee DPS builds. Pally KoTC is also a valid DPS build, although not meta currently. I think arguing that fighter and pally deserve the buffs because tanks deserve the buffs is missing the point. Fighter/Pally <> Tank.

The real point is Fighter and Pally deserve this buff because they are melee DPS classes (in addition to filling other party roles, like ranged DPS (fighter) or tank (either)). The feat list creates a limiting factor for tanks. There is no reason to limit valid DPS fighter/pally from benefiting the same as other melee DPS classes.

- Can we get rid of the activation delay and cooldown completely? It's going to be impractical to switch this on during encounters for hybrid builds. Right now it seems like there's a 3 second or so activation time, and moving interrupts it. With this functioning like this I don't see it being practical to switch it on for hybrid builds during encounters if they want to go in and melee. Maybe that's your intent but I was assuming it'd be possible to toggle it off and on more on the fly.

It is my understanding this is WAI.

From a gameplay/balance perspective: without the cool downs ranged characters and casters could just macro it off, cast a spell, macro it on again macro a self heal. And basically bypass the limitations. If you allow it to be turned on an off with no cooldown you may as well not put the touch range, RP, or other stance restrictions in place. This is not designed to be something you can toggle freely.

From a lore/RP perspective: The concept is that you are in a purely melee battle trance with all your focus on melee. It takes you time to get into the zone. And breaking focus on melee combat (to cast, or range, or heal) is a distraction that requires you to focus to regain the battle trance that yields the benefit.

[noobodyfool]

This is a melee DPS buff. Not a tank buff. That said Fighter is one of the top melee DPS builds. Pally KoTC is also a valid DPS build, although not meta currently. I think arguing that fighter and pally deserve the buffs because tanks deserve the buffs is missing the point. Fighter/Pally <> Tank.

The real point is Fighter and Pally deserve this buff because they are melee DPS classes (in addition to filling other party roles, like ranged DPS (fighter) or tank (either)). The feat list creates a limiting factor for tanks. There is no reason to limit valid DPS fighter/pally from benefiting the same as other melee DPS classes.



It is my understanding this is WAI.

From a gameplay/balance perspective: without the cool downs ranged characters and casters could just macro it off, cast a spell, macro it on again macro a self heal. And basically bypass the limitations. If you allow it to be turned on an off with no cooldown you may as well not put the touch range, RP, or other stance restrictions in place. This is not designed to be something you can toggle freely.

From a lore/RP perspective: The concept is that you are in a purely melee battle trance with all your focus on melee. It takes you time to get into the zone. And breaking focus on melee combat (to cast, or range, or heal) is a distraction that requires you to focus to regain the battle trance that yields the benefit.

I'm so Epic I'm Legendary,
I'm so Legendary From A Lore Perspective, I'm in The Battle Trance Zone!!!

[Hipparan]

Needs to work with Vanguard. I get not wanting this to work with tanks, but Vanguard is not a tank.

Also a general buff like this should benefit new players more than it benefits veterans.

also definitely 100% not seeing why Monk needs yet another buff. this is lol territory.

Thaaaaaank you! My Paladin/Fighter (switches between them, always 20 levels of one or the other) is always a Vanguard. I love the tree, but with Shield Mastery not being included in this list, I can't make use of this feat. The only way I can do that is if I have him be a Fighter and use the Two-Handed Fighting feats through all the extra feats fighters get. Even then though all it does is save me 3 AP that I might spend on the Tier 5 of Stalwart Defender, plus an extra 5%. I think I might just stick with Paladin next life and use Single Weapon Fighting.

[Captain_Wizbang]

This comment wont get me any Christmas party invites.............

Not including the vanguard trees makes zero sense. People have sad Vanguard or S&B are not tanks, well until the recent changes where ANY toon can intim a red name (power creep), what good is the path? Worthless.
The shield procs are not strong enough for SUSTAINABLE dps, the rush & charge are decent enough situational CC, Great for solo play. But you have to dump so much into T5 to attain that, there is not enough left for anything.

So Once again S&B is the worthless path it once was, This small bump would help those players tremendously.

The additional changes to melees dont give enough (to date) to counter my point.

As this all on Lamma-Land. Im going to respectfully request you revisit vanguard to be included.

This whole melee situation is getting tiresome.

[lyrecono]

This is a melee DPS buff. Not a tank buff. That said Fighter is one of the top melee DPS builds. Pally KoTC is also a valid DPS build, although not meta currently. I think arguing that fighter and pally deserve the buffs because tanks deserve the buffs is missing the point. Fighter/Pally <> Tank.

The real point is Fighter and Pally deserve this buff because they are melee DPS classes (in addition to filling other party roles, like ranged DPS (fighter) or tank (either)). The feat list creates a limiting factor for tanks. There is no reason to limit valid DPS fighter/pally from benefiting the same as other melee DPS classes.



It is my understanding this is WAI.

From a gameplay/balance perspective: without the cool downs ranged characters and casters could just macro it off, cast a spell, macro it on again macro a self heal. And basically bypass the limitations. If you allow it to be turned on an off with no cooldown you may as well not put the touch range, RP, or other stance restrictions in place. This is not designed to be something you can toggle freely.

From a lore/RP perspective: The concept is that you are in a purely melee battle trance with all your focus on melee. It takes you time to get into the zone. And breaking focus on melee combat (to cast, or range, or heal) is a distraction that requires you to focus to regain the battle trance that yields the benefit.

The problem has always been the ease a paladin and fighter can grab 20%.hp, 25 prr/mrr and +3 to saves for 13 enh points, leaving plenty of points to go full dps with a 2hander, 2wf or swf, as long as they wear a platemail
And why wouldn't a fighter, they have plenty of extra feats to fit in some heavy armor feats for even more prr&mrr(30)
Lets be honnest, 13 points is hardly a penalty for what it gives a fighter.
Plenty of splashes did the same.

But a melee isn't a tank and if you don't invest in defence, those hp will melt away in no time. I don't expect to see rogues dominating the solo scene as frontlike tanks
Thats why i don't understand the attitude of tank players to the initial proposal made by torc, beingn is more then having a lot of hp.
There is still a need for you.

[noobodyfool]

The problem has always been the ease a paladin and fighter can grab 20%.hp, 25 prr/mrr and +3 to saves for 13 enh points, leaving plenty of points to go full dps with a 2hander, 2wf or swf, as long as they wear a platemail
And why wouldn't a fighter, they have plenty of extra feats to fit in some heavy armor feats for even more prr&mrr(30)
Lets be honnest, 13 points is hardly a penalty for what it gives a fighter.
Plenty of splashes did the same.

But a melee isn't a tank and if you don't invest in defence, those hp will melt away in no time. I don't expect to see rogues dominating the solo scene as frontlike tanks
Thats why i don't understand the attitude of tank players to the initial proposal made by torc, beingn is more then having a lot of hp.
There is still a need for you.

If we can make the 25-50% HP buff exclusive with Shield mastery where it don't work if you take Shield deflection Vanguard's can use it.

1. Shield mastery

2. Improved Shield mastery

3. Perfect Shield mastery

4. Shield bash

5. Improved Shield bash