Melee Survivability Changes - Some First Steps

[lyrecono]

You're giving everyone a 50% COMPETENCY BOOST to hp. Why? Why not make it untyped so that the fighter druid and pali can still have a stacking bonus. The only reason to take pali in a tank now is for saves and you no longer need the HP from it, because everyone has it. I would understand if it was an untyped bonus, but why this way? On top of this the shield feats aren't even counted in it so real tank builds might as well just die now. They won't have the hp they should in comparison.

That being said I love the hp boost, and think it is a good idea. I just am concerned that tanks might become obsolete.

Easy there, the title of the thread is some first steps, some of us have suggested shield feats, if you come up with something constructive, torc might consider bringing it up at the dev meeting.

That you want a bigger difference between ranged & casters survivability compared to Melee is understandable. However I believe this is the wrong way to go about it. It goes agains everything in that makes DDO fun: unique build paths, and meaningful build choices.

It also makes no sense that the devs always tackle these problems with more power creep (or in this case power jump). If you want to make a large survivability difference between caster/ranged then reduce their benefits from prr and add more unique attacks to mobs.

Your example of ranged damage nerf as the path you think of shows that you are not even thinking of the common sense solutions. The solution to survivability problems between the roles isn’t a ranged damage nerf.

The solutions should allow for more tactics, more active and interactive gameplay, and should enable each build to shine with varying strengths. This just homogenizes builds into bloated HP sacks that do 20k+ DPS and hack anything down.

If you want to make such a large difference in survivability then just make ranged/casters not recieve an HP benefit from reaper trees, and nerf their prr benefit by half. Most of them won’t even notice it until they start taking more damage because prr seems to have a stigma of uselessness in these forums.



Yes. Melee still get 1-shot in r10 if they play dumb. Considering the multitude of defensive clickies available (Thick Skin, Displacement Clickies, Incanny Dodge, Meld, Discorperation, Radiant Forcefield just to name some off the top of my head), there’s plenty of defensive clickies for those struggling in r10. R10 is defined by it being unforgiving, and for rewarding stupid play with quick deaths. Experience is a good teacher, and pain is the best teacher of all.

If your melee is getting one shot in r10 then I recommend you run with a tank, play like any hit could be your last, and to use your defensive abilities. However, over the last year, one of the common things I’ve heard from players who have complained about melee survivability is that they do not enjoy having to use clickies and active attacks.

If you refuse to use the myriad of defensive abilities available, you should not be asking for defensive buffs.

Also; I plan on being on lamma, and I believe Feel already extended an invite to the devs. Would love for Torc or Cordovan to tag along and chat with us to see how we approach the game’s challenges.




A Deadpool is always appreciated anywhere <3 and yes, I’m always excited for more raids at cap.

So, how is a raging barb gone manage all those clickies, especially the short lived ones?
Do you know how anoying 2 frenzie clickies are and how many people suggested turning them into a stance instead?(like power attack).
Displacement lasts a lot less then 8,5 min for rage.
Meld lasts 15 seconds, 2 min of sitting on your hands?
Thick skin has it uses but suffers from the same problem as meld, you afe under constant attack as a melee, you cant expect the party to wait for those timers, not with the constant pressure in a well oiled party.
Those are fine abilities for oh s-hit moments, not full contious s-hit hours

I do love my 14 attacks and use a full bar of continious buffs(boosts, frenzies etc) however, there is a limit i'm willing to go, its a video game based on pen and paper, not an excuse to wear diapers and a drip feed, i do like blinking and not dying.

[Rull]

I'd prefer basing the hit point adjustment on the class's hit die or whatever the proper term is. In theory, a barbarian (d12) should have roughly 3 times as many hit points as a wizard (d4) and twice as many as a warlock (d6). Itemization means everyone at cap has similar +whatever CON, +whatever vitality, +whatever false life, etc etc so the classic spread of hit point durability is warped.

Classic hit dice roughly corresponds with melee archetypes having more hit points and ranged/spell having fewer.

This does not take diffent playstyles within the same class into account. A TWF tempest ranger has the same die as a ranged arcane archer. There are ranged paladins. Thrower monks. Etc. The best thing about DDO are the crazy things you can do with a class or a combination of them.

[SpartanKiller13]

This'll be interesting.

I think that it should get stacks from Shield Mastery/ISM, and stack fully with Defender Stance HP boosts.

-----

My tank (first life @30) runs around with approximately 3500/2800 HP (700 temps). With this feat I'd have approximately 3400/2800 HP (600 temps). Losing warlock aura costs me, and because I don't have melee DPS feats (hello, I'm a tank) I don't get >20% to surpass my defender stance.

This is a tank toon with tank feats like Toughness, Epic Toughness, Shield Mastery, and Improved Shield Mastery. I'd be better off retraining all four of those feats for DPS feats like THF/ITHF/GTHF/PTHF even though I use a shield. I would literally end up with +550 HP at the cost of 15 PRR (I have ~300 when stacked, so nearly no loss at all). That definitely makes a lot of sense.

-----

Optimal entry level tanks thereafter seem to be WF/BF 12/5/3 Barbarian/Artificer/Fighter, with OS's DR+HP+HAmp along with Renegade Mastermaker's 20% HP and StD's Defender stance for PRR/MRR. Can still use Blood Tribute for Temps, but you'd have to be a lot more careful of SPs for self-healing (positive healing for sure, Barbarian HAmp makes it easy to get to useful numbers again).

Even better, since you'll be taking THF line anyway you might as well pick up a Bastard Sword and go for it lol.

[Rull]

That you want a bigger difference between ranged & casters survivability compared to Melee is understandable. However I believe this is the wrong way to go about it. It goes agains everything in that makes DDO fun: unique build paths, and meaningful build choices.

It also makes no sense that the devs always tackle these problems with more power creep (or in this case power jump). If you want to make a large survivability difference between caster/ranged then reduce their benefits from prr and add more unique attacks to mobs.

Your example of ranged damage nerf as the path you think of shows that you are not even thinking of the common sense solutions. The solution to survivability problems between the roles isn’t a ranged damage nerf.

The solutions should allow for more tactics, more active and interactive gameplay, and should enable each build to shine with varying strengths. This just homogenizes builds into bloated HP sacks that do 20k+ DPS and hack anything down.

If you want to make such a large difference in survivability then just make ranged/casters not recieve an HP benefit from reaper trees, and nerf their prr benefit by half. Most of them won’t even notice it until they start taking more damage because prr seems to have a stigma of uselessness in these forums.



Yes. Melee still get 1-shot in r10 if they play dumb. Considering the multitude of defensive clickies available (Thick Skin, Displacement Clickies, Incanny Dodge, Meld, Discorperation, Radiant Forcefield just to name some off the top of my head), there’s plenty of defensive clickies for those struggling in r10. R10 is defined by it being unforgiving, and for rewarding stupid play with quick deaths. Experience is a good teacher, and pain is the best teacher of all.

If your melee is getting one shot in r10 then I recommend you run with a tank, play like any hit could be your last, and to use your defensive abilities. However, over the last year, one of the common things I’ve heard from players who have complained about melee survivability is that they do not enjoy having to use clickies and active attacks.

If you refuse to use the myriad of defensive abilities available, you should not be asking for defensive buffs.

Also; I plan on being on lamma, and I believe Feel already extended an invite to the devs. Would love for Torc or Cordovan to tag along and chat with us to see how we approach the game’s challenges.




A Deadpool is always appreciated anywhere <3 and yes, I’m always excited for more raids at cap.

Note that especially clickies scale bad with high ping. Of course the whole game becomes harder with a worse connection but it's not that bad, except for clickies and item swaps.

[xberto]

Want to boost them? give them more tactical feets, give tumble a bonus to dodge, give more options, feat wise.

Yes, where is my Improved Whirlwind feat? Maybe it puts a trip effect on all hit mobs when you use a slashing weapon. It puts a stun on all mobs when using a blunt weapon.

[hit_fido]

This does not take diffent playstyles within the same class into account. A TWF tempest ranger has the same die as a ranged arcane archer. There are ranged paladins. Thrower monks. Etc. The best thing about DDO are the crazy things you can do with a class or a combination of them.

Key word being "roughly". To get to what Torc wants, you still have to combine it with some penalty specific to ranged/spell casting.

[Vish]

**** the torcpedos,
Full speed ahead!

[Kmnh]

I dont like these changes. They would make the game easier but wouldn't do anything to help the melee builds that are struggling.

The melee classes that I see on Cannith level 30 r7+ pugs are mostly monks, barbarians and rogue tempest builds: the high mobility/high AoE damage classes.

Pure paladins and pure fighters already have way more HP than the monks and rogues do, yet they don't see much play. They need a reliable source of AoE damage. Maybe some movment speed.

My suggestion is to add a buff to the cleave feats, similar to Dance of Death from the Tempest tree, that makes your attacks hit more than 1 target for a few seconds. Fixing whirlwind attack so it works with armed combat would be nice too.

[Shadow_Jumper]

So, how is a raging barb gone manage all those clickies, especially the short lived ones?
Do you know how anoying 2 frenzie clickies are and how many people suggested turning them into a stance instead?(like power attack).
Displacement lasts a lot less then 8,5 min for rage.
Meld lasts 15 seconds, 2 min of sitting on your hands?
Thick skin has it uses but suffers from the same problem as meld, you afe under constant attack as a melee, you cant expect the party to wait for those timers, not with the constant pressure in a well oiled party.
Those are fine abilities for oh s-hit moments, not full contious s-hit hours

I do love my 14 attacks and use a full bar of continious buffs(boosts, frenzies etc) however, there is a limit i'm willing to go, its a video game based on pen and paper, not an excuse to wear diapers and a drip feed, i do like blinking and not dying.

Have you ever seen a caster’s hotbars before? 14 is nothing.

If you refuse to use the myriad of defensive abilities available, you should not be asking for defensive buffs.

[Niminae]

Just in case it isn't clear, to be explicit about it: This change would have no impact on self-healing.

Just in case it isn't clear, to be explicit about it: +50% HP is not needed in C/N/H/E content, and in Reaper you might have heard that the ability to self-heal has been severely reduced.


Please forgive the snark, but this is obviously a reaper nerf, and stating that self-healing isn't impacted ignores the fact that in reaper self-healing is already impacted.

[Jetrule]

So, how is a raging barb gone manage all those clickies, especially the short lived ones?
Do you know how anoying 2 frenzie clickies are and how many people suggested turning them into a stance instead?(like power attack).
Displacement lasts a lot less then 8,5 min for rage.
Meld lasts 15 seconds, 2 min of sitting on your hands?
Thick skin has it uses but suffers from the same problem as meld, you afe under constant attack as a melee, you cant expect the party to wait for those timers, not with the constant pressure in a well oiled party.
Those are fine abilities for oh s-hit moments, not full contious s-hit hours

I do love my 14 attacks and use a full bar of continious buffs(boosts, frenzies etc) however, there is a limit i'm willing to go, its a video game based on pen and paper, not an excuse to wear diapers and a drip feed, i do like blinking and not dying.

Out standing! thank you for making reading this whole thread to this point pay off so well!

[HastyPudding]

All spell or spell like abilities that are effected by metamagics have their ranged reduced to touch range (think shocking grasp)

Hmmm. Does this mean any non-meta'd spells/SLA's are unaffected? For example, a sorcerer using a non-meta'd fireball or a pure fighter (having no metamagics) using rejuvenation cocoon? If not, then this needs to be reworded as "All spells or spell-like abilities that can be affected by metamagics have their ranged reduced to touch range." Subtle difference but drastically changes the intent.

[ahpook]

... We have concluded that melee dps (not counting tanks) is at least much harder to play, from a player skill point of view, if not needing some help in general.

...

Thanks for the thought behind the proposed change. My 2 cents:
1: If this is a reaper problem make it a reaper solution. You already have reaper enhancements for this kind of tuning so put it there.
2: You identified a problem with landing hits on kiting. Your solution doesn't address the problem but works around it. DDO already has too many layers of stuff trying to deal with problems caused by kiting, mob intelligence, and predictability of encounters. I don't think adding another thing to the pile will solve the problem. The root causes need to be addressed.

[Magnus_Arcanis]

Answers to questions....

1> What about Class HD? Very few classes are restricted to melee by class. Fighter/Rangers/Monks/Rogues can all be very good archers. Class in DDO doesn't really define if you do damage primarily in melee or not very well. That's not something we can or want to change.

2> Make them have melee class? See above.

3> Will it really matter? Actually, as strange as it sounds, we don't think this will actually change things much at the top of the curve. In high reaper and raids this will buy you a hit, maybe two. As crazy as it sounds +50% hp (which for people already using a defensive stance, is +30%), It's not going to move the needle that much because the monsters are hitting just that hard if your on R7+. Now for people struggling in elite, or low reaper, it'll have a big impact.... but if they find things to easy, well, they can always increase their difficulty if they don't feel challenge because they still have a lot of track to use.

What I really don’t like about this “fix” is its restrictive nature. You’re basically telling me, that if I want to play a melee dps toon, I have to ignore a lot of other potential class features and playstyles.

I love DDO for its relatively open multi-classing and complex character options. However, with each step the game seems to be taking that away and I beg of you to stop going in that direction. Please.

Though, you do realize players not being able to survive melee damage outside of being a tank is a symptom of allowing your bonuses to get out of control right?

Not to mention this “fix” doesn’t apply to the squishier melee builds. Barbs, Monks, and Fighters go from being ok to even better. Rogues go from being a liability to hopefully not being a liability. So, yay for Rogues, but literally every other class or combination of classes is left out in the cold and I would argue that they are the ones in need of assistance.

Really though… you need to cap your bonuses and have better defined shelves of power. Being able to dedicate 90+% of your character’s options towards a single role is a bad thing and creates major imbalances. Not sure what it’s going to take for people to realize that.

[Cantor]

So wait, you want melee dps builds to have just as many hps in epic as tank builds? As someone who primarily plays tank builds, I'm scratching my head at this. What is the thinking behind this?

Why don't you want the defensive stances' hps bonuses to stack with this? Why not add Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery to the list of feats for the Vanguard melee dps builds?

(While you're add it, you should add a Perfect Shield Mastery and a Perfect Natural Fighting epic destiny feats.)

All this.

[Niminae]

By no means am I a melee expert, but I see repeatedly it mentioned that there is an issue in High Reaper and Reaper Raids for melee. Rather than buff EVERYONE at level 21 that is melee, what about the following:

1) Split the Reaper Dread Adversary offensive tree into one melee tree and one ranged tree. Taking any points in one will lock you out of the other.
2) Insert the Epic Defensive Fighting into the Melee Reaper Tree, still at level 21, but at the 4th core or 4th Tier with the same lock out restrictions as the proposed epic feat has.
3) Given this tree is now melee only, for example Core 5 could become XX% Dodge, and XX% Dodge Cap increase, Core 6 could be 100* PRR/MRR if additional support is needed.
*100 only provided as an example.

This would limit these new effects only to Melee and only in Reaper.

+1

This suggestion could really use some dev attention.

[MistaMagic]

Thanks for the feedback so far, we'll have to ponder it. A few things:


- One of the reasons we are considering this change is to address the community's concern that melee are not able to compete in more difficult content with their spellcasting and ranged-using friends. If there is a larger belief that this is not the case, we'd love to hear that.

I am not sure where you get the impression that the community has any concerns regarding Melee apart from a few REPEATED posts by a Minority (Of a minority as we all know that only a small proportion of the player base actualy use the forum).

Sev posted when Reaper was being introduced that IT IS MEANT TO KILL YOU, not IT IS MEANT TO KILL YOU But in the future we will make it so it does not.

Now what has happened since Reaper was introduced is that every Tom, **** and Harry think that Reaper is the new Elite and are NOT capable of doing it (If you look at the lfm's for content you will mostly see that they are for R1 at 2 levels over to get the extra XP and realy do not care about Reaper at all as that is just a means to the end) so cry on the forum that they need help when in fact what they actualy need is a good kick up the butt and be told to go back and play Elite until they are good enough to play Reaper NOT alter the goalposts so they can play as that will not make them any better players than what they were before

[Cantor]

^Fully agree with this. I would also add an attack speed debuff as a possible means to make it situational.

I say movement speed debuff, that's what really hurts.

[Thoden]

its a video game based on pen and paper, not an excuse to wear diapers and a drip feed, i do like blinking and not dying.

+1 hahaha!

[Ballrus]

So: in the upcoming patch we'll be introducing a few changes to give a boost to melee build survivability, particularly in the epic range. Because of the variety of builds and playstyles, this will be a multi-step process that will involve adding some features which will be generally available to anyone, with changes that target specific classes or builds, such as the barbarian changes listed below.

Epic Defensive Fighting

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

• New Epic Feat
• Auto granted at level 21
• Toggled Ability
• While Toggle is active:
  
  • 10% Competence Bonus to max hit points, with an additional 10% for every combat "fighting" style feat you have, to a max of 50%. (Exact list below)
  • All spell or spell like abilities that are effected by metamagics have their ranged reduced to touch range (think shocking grasp)
  • Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
  • Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
  • Exclusive from the Enlarge Spell Metamagic toggle
  • Remains active while dead
  • Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
• The Complete list of "Fighting Feats" that apply:
  
  • Single Weapon Fighting
  • Improved Single Weapon Fighting
  • Greater Single Weapon Fighting
  • Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
    
    
  • Two Handed Fighting
  • Improved Two Handed Fighting
  • Greater Two Handed Fighting
  • Perfect Two Handed Fighting
    
    
  • Two Weapon Fighting
  • Improved Two Weapon Fighting
  • Greater Two Weapon Fighting
  • Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
  • Natural Fighting (Counts each time taken)
• Additional:
  
  • Paladin Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to competency (which it appears it always was, but the text was incorrect)
  • Aasimar racial hp bonus will be changed to Sacred (should now stack)

Barbarian DR Class Feature Revamp

• Barbarian DR no longer gives "classic" damage reduction like in old 3.5 of -1 damage per strike.
• Instead Barbarians now start with a 3% damage absorption to all damage except bane (this is a straight percentage of damage reduced BEFORE PRR/MRR calculation)
  
  • This resistance is increased at levels barbarians normal got DR increases, by 1%, net of 9% by level 20
  • Enhancements in the barbarian occult slayer line increase this by 1% instead of the DR they once increased for a total of 4% available from the tree.
  • The Fury of the Wild passive "Damage Reduction" increases this absorption by an additional 1% at the third rank.
• Total max: 14% damage absorption to all damage except bane. Requires a Pure Barbarian with the fifth Core in Occult Slayer and a tier 2 Fury of the Wild ability to achieve.

-T

P.S. We recognize that the general hp boost will be not be sufficient for many builds on the more extreme difficulties, and it's a wheee bit more complicated, hence this is a first step. Once we see how the current meta adjusts to these changes we'll be doing some follow up.

Make this feat uncenter monks while is on.