Melee Survivability Changes - Some First Steps

[J1NG]

So wait, you want melee dps builds to have just as many hps in epic as tank builds? As someone who primarily plays tank builds, I'm scratching my head at this. What is the thinking behind this?

I'm guessing the reasoning is this: Most of the Melee who are having trouble with Reaper damage is getting taken down from damage that they can't avoid or mitigate in any reasonably timely fashion.

Horrid Wilting for example has at best a save to protect you for half damage. Having just recently gone into a Legendary Tempest Spine, and getting a Horrid Wilting from Sorjeck at R3 and taking 3-4.5k damage (so around 1.5k to 2k saved damage). That was still in excess of 500 HP above what my toon was able to absorb even had I made the save. Having around another 50% Health would have been "just enough" to take a hit from something like that assuming I don't scrimp on my Fort Save.

Even with high PRR and MRR to tackle the incoming damage (that can be reduced by it), you still rely on HP to abosrb the hit (they go hand in hand with each other). Therefore, the first thing to boost would be HP in this case. As it is only the first step in changes being done.

J1NG

[HungarianRhapsody]

So wait, you want melee dps builds to have just as many hps in epic as tank builds? As someone who primarily plays tank builds, I'm scratching my head at this. What is the thinking behind this?

Is there a reason why tank builds wouldn't be using this ability as well?

[janave]

Seems like too much HP on toggle, little barb DR. By level 20 ~15% barb DR makes sense, by level 30, ~24% makes sense. Hit points bonuses would optimally follow base dices, eg a class with d10 gets more than a d6 from the same bonus ( less problem with % bonuses, but there is a lot of flat bonuses from feats, enhancements, gear etc... )

[blerkington]

Here's a little review of the recent approach to balancing the game. It would be funny if it hadn't resulted in such a wasteful mess.

1. Make highest difficulty level too easy for the majority of veteran players through class and gear power increases
2. Invent new difficulty for those who ask for a return of challenge involving cooperative play
3. Over-reward new difficulty with more power, more xp, better gear drop rates, gear with special bonuses
4. Belatedly realise the negative social consequences of over-rewarding new difficulty
5. Adjust new difficulty to be easy enough so that everyone can play it
6. Optional: realise step 5 and step 1 are the same and then do something to prevent this cycle from continuing

Don't make these adjustments to melee play in reaper. It isn't needed. That difficulty is meant to be about challenge and provide a reason for cooperative play. Better players on strong characters can already solo, shortman and/or carry weak party members through fairly high reaper difficulties in six person content.

Before you go any further with this, perhaps you could tell us the rationale for making these changes, what reaper difficulty's place in the game actually is now, and your views about preserving rather than eroding difficulty. And tell us who is actually asking for these changes and why are you listening to them?

Thanks.

[silinteresting]

this dont seem to bad at first glance. its a toggle so can be turned on and off or
used when needed. not bad first step, nice one.

your friend sil

[lyrecono]

For the 1st part you're forgetting HP bonus types. Bears, fighters, pally and the new one will have competence bonus, so it won't stack. you'll have at most 50% from feat, 10%from aasimar and 30% from LGS.

For the second part you misread, it will only give 1% dr for the 3rd rank, hence the 14% (which in my opinion is a lot!)

the bonus types were:
Competence Bonus
and
competency
but ok, assuming you're right (and you'll like be that, English was my 5th language), that would mean a fighter would be better of using this then their own defensive stance, great, that will open up enh points!


i'm hoping he screwed up on the "damage reduction" part or at least replace the first 2 ranks with something nice (say 10 hp or hamp).

[Captain_Wizbang]

So wait, you want melee dps builds to have just as many hps in epic as tank builds? As someone who primarily plays tank builds, I'm scratching my head at this. What is the thinking behind this?

Why don't you want the defensive stances' hps bonuses to stack with this? Why not add Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery to the list of feats for the Vanguard melee dps builds?

(While you're add it, you should add a Perfect Shield Mastery and a Perfect Natural Fighting epic destiny feats.)

Good post. All of it.


As for the comments about reaper, There is no doubt that was discussed before Torc made the post. Im sure we'll see why *SOON tm

[Rys]

[Arkat]

What was the impetus for this change, Torc?

[Edwinge]

Is there a reason why tank builds wouldn't be using this ability as well?

Well, on a druid tank I probably would since they can get 40% instead of 25% from their stance (though the touch casting may make it questionable). On my paladin tanks I usually don't have any of the feats on the list. I take the shield mastery feats for my fighting style feats. So that would only give 10% vs. 20% from my stance. On a fighter... I've built with and without 2hf feats so it could go either way.

Of course, with such a large increase to hps I'd almost feel forced into taking the 2hf feats and foregoing the shield mastery feats. Their small bonus would pale in comparison to the sheer number of hps this would give. I'd prefer something that would encourage build diversity and this seems like it would do the opposite for tanks.

[Nazanin]

You are messing up the entire game for an imaginary issue... Back to the drawing board guys

[Sam-u-r-eye]

@Torc

Please make sure that the spell distance doesn't affect healing spells. It really hurts everyone else playing with a melee if they stop healing their neighbor. EVERYONE runs short-man and being able to heal your neighbor is a core-part of the difficulty. The change looks great! I'm looking forward to testing it on Lamma.

@Rys

We've been rolling our eyes at your kiting for years. Welcome to the partyyyyyy!!!!

[lyrecono]

@Torc

Please make sure that the spell distance doesn't affect healing spells. It really hurts everyone else playing with a melee if they stop healing their neighbor. EVERYONE runs short-man and being able to heal your neighbor is a core-part of the difficulty. The change looks great! I'm looking forward to testing it on Lamma.

@Rys

We've been rolling our eyes at your kiting for years. Welcome to the partyyyyyy!!!!

this!!!!!!!

i'm concerned too, at least you can lay on hands.

[SirValentine]

...will be not be sufficient for many builds on the more extreme difficulties...

Isn't the whole point of the more extreme difficulties that we're not supposed to be sufficient for them?

Are decent build having that much trouble on Elite, or are you deliberately making Reaper easier?

[janave]

[J1NG]

Isn't the whole point of the more extreme difficulties that we're not supposed to be sufficient for them?

Are decent build having that much trouble on Elite, or are you deliberately making Reaper easier?

Fairly certain they are going to make Reaper easier by extension. It might have been the intention to make R10 murder you every time back when there was more players. Now it's "keep as many players playing as possible." since SSG are now on their own. So players playing = lights on in office. And since most of you (not you in particular SirValentine, just "you" in general) are in Reaper and don't feel like coming down in difficulty, well, here comes the buffs to bring the masses to you.

Honestly, the players shouldn't be surprised about this development.

J1NG

[Epicstorms]

So much wrong with this. Please think it over again, lol.

[lyrecono]

Isn't the whole point of the more extreme difficulties that we're not supposed to be sufficient for them?

Are decent build having that much trouble on Elite, or are you deliberately making Reaper easier?

Since caster gain enough from their reaper trees to instakill and cc in r10, i think that discussion is moot.
Or is there some other motive why you want caster to succeed where melees struggle?

Any way, what did you mean with decent build? a heroic completionist? an epic one?
How long has it been since you played a pure barb or 2hf fighter and took it from 20 to 30 on a bad pug though EE? or R5 (a pug setting these days)
How did you enjoy those low epics? How well did you enjoy the face tanking?
I'm specifically asking because your question makes me wonder if you did recently.

Why is it that casters gain all the DC they need to do their jobs but when melees, who suffer in high reaper, get a buff, all the non melee players come out of the woodwork?

[Rys]

Isn't the whole point of the more extreme difficulties that we're not supposed to be sufficient for them?

Are decent build having that much trouble on Elite, or are you deliberately making Reaper easier?

A new difficulty has been added: R11-R20

Soon

[FuzzyDuck81]

So melees shouldn't spot heal their party members I guess? Touch range spells are fiddly enough as is on monsters, let alone healing a party member.

Aasimar healing hands, paladin/unyielding sentinel lay on hands & monk healing ki will be about the only ways for a melee to reliably spot heal party members in an emergency then - oh well, I guess most of my melees will be even wimpier in comparison to others than they are already, I like being able to throw out some support to a party member. Except for the monk, she'll get a nice boost.