Melee Survivability Changes - Some First Steps

[Iriale]

I agree with this as long as hybrids don't have it all so if u can heal more than a few lay on hands u don't need as much HP however if u wear medium or heavy armor u do need AC and MMR. Medium 15% Heavy 25%

Nobody self heal in high reaper. Sincerely, it gives the impression that more than solving a problem, you are lobbying to improve your characters

[Kaboom2112]

Nobody self heal in high reaper.

Wrong. Pay to win Asimar are fine even in high-skull.

[noobodyfool]

Nobody self heal in high reaper. Sincerely, it gives the impression that more than solving a problem, you are lobbying to improve your characters

This is not really for elitist playing high reaper, they don't need anything but reaper 11-20.
Also I've seen many clerics and flavorsoles self heal up to r5. As well as some self healing in r10 she was actually soloing the entire RL except the raids!

Anyway I play tank the best I've come up with is a bladfoged warlock 5 pally 3 fighter 12 may try doing more pally on next build so none of this is great for me. Don't own all the races and classes and I don't copy other people's builds.
Having played Vanguard before and after the nerf I will not play it again.
Although I would like to play Vanguard again if they make it better.

[noobodyfool]

Epic Defensive Fighting

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

• New Epic Feat
• Auto granted at level 21
• Toggled Ability
• While Toggle is active:
  
  • 4% Bonus to max hit points, with an additional % for every combat "fighting" style feat you have, to a max of 30%. (Exact list below)
  • Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
  • Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.Shield Deflection)
  • Remains active while dead
  • Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage

• The Complete list of "Fighting Feats" that apply:
  
  • +5% combat style feat tier one type for only one of the following feats
    
    • Single Weapon Fighting
    • Two Handed Weapon Fighting
    • Two Weapon Fighting
    • Natural Fighting (first taken)
    
    
  • +6% combat style feat tier two type for only one of the following feats
    
    • Improved Single Weapon Fighting
    • Improved Two Handed Weapon Fighting
    • Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    • Natural Fighting (second taken)
    
    
  • +7% combat style feat tier three type for only one of the following feats
    
    • Greater Single Weapon Fighting
    • Greater Two Handed Weapon Fighting
    • Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    • Natural Fighting (third taken)
    
    
  • +8% combat style feat tier four type for only one of the following feats
    
    • Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
    • Perfect Two Handed Weapon Fighting
    • Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    • Perfect Natural Fighting (needs to be created)
    
    
  • Additional:
    
    • Paladin Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to competency (which it appears it always was, but the text was incorrect)
    • Aasimar racial hp bonus will be changed to Sacred (should now stack)

Barbarian stuff has always been good.


This gets rid of spellcasting penalties due to the feat tax that will force quality built spellcasters away from spending four feats when they don't have enough feats anyway. No, I don't think even a Wizard can afford to blow four feats just for hit points, after all, how many take multiple toughness feats? But if one did, the build would be giving up a great deal of power from CC and Instant Kills, making them considered undesirable for high reaper grouping anyway.

With the spellcasting penalties gone, there is no concern for lack of teamwork, which was my main concern, otherwise it becomes a poison pill feat similar to Improved Fortification (which is why I made earlier suggestions to also avoid spellcasting penalties).

Yes, I am granting all nonwarlock spellcasters a 4% hp bonus, they likely could use it anyway...

+1s for all the posts above this one that made this clear
Pure Credit for ideas goes to them not me.

My new favorite version....


Epic Defensive Fighting:

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

New Epic Feat
Auto granted at level 21
Toggled Ability
While Toggle is active:
10% Competence Bonus to max hit points, with an additional 10% for every combat "fighting" style feat you have, to a max of 50%. (Exact list below)
All spell or spell like abilities that are effected by metamagics have their ranged reduced to touch range (think shocking grasp)
Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
Exclusive from the Enlarge Spell Metamagic toggle
Remains active while dead
Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
Exclusive fromSHIELD DEFLECTION


The Complete list of "Fighting Feats" that apply:

Single Weapon Fighting
Improved Single Weapon Fighting
Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Perfect Single Weapon Fighting

Two Handed Fighting
Improved Two Handed Fighting
Greater Two Handed Fighting
Perfect Two Handed Fighting

Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Perfect Two Weapon Fighting

Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
Perfect Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Bash


Natural Fighting (Counts each time taken)


Additional:
Paladin Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to sacred (which it appears it always was, but the application was incorrect should now stack)
Aasimar Racial hp bonus will be changed to Sacred (should now stack)
Fighter Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to Athletic (should now stack)

[kuzka111]

so melee survivability to you guys is give all better fighter stance (25%) and fighter will get 5% more and 3 ap less to use on stance right? hm... just great (sarcasm)

and 2nd thing nerf to power surge. Yes nerf bc atm i got 14 power surge(without capstone , with item i could have 17) and you offer 8 with capstone... awsome...


so tell me is fighter that much op then other melee? or you just hate him?


monk's are op now and then get 25% hp boost
barb will have 25% more hp and 14% reduction
ranger and rogue get 25% more hp

fighter get 5% and power surge nerf AWSOME IDEA! ( sarcasm)

and yes i play fighter i got all plx3 (129 past lifes) i got 78 reaper ap and without cc or good healer im dead , even with healer and some good champ im dead (1 shoted) and you give fighter 5% hp more...

[noobodyfool]

so melee survivability to you guys is give all better fighter stance (25%) and fighter will get 5% more and 3 ap less to use on stance right? hm... just great (sarcasm)

and 2nd thing nerf to power surge. Yes nerf bc atm i got 14 power surge(without capstone , with item i could have 17) and you offer 8 with capstone... awsome...


so tell me is fighter that much op then other melee? or you just hate him?


monk's are op now and then get 25% hp boost
barb will have 25% more hp and 14% reduction
ranger and rogue get 25% more hp

fighter get 5% and power surge nerf AWSOME IDEA! ( sarcasm)

and yes i play fighter i got all plx3 (129 past lifes) i got 78 reaper ap and without cc or good healer im dead , even with healer and some good champ im dead (1 shoted) and you give fighter 5% hp more...

+1

[Kaboom2112]

and yes i play fighter i got all plx3 (129 past lifes) i got 78 reaper ap and without cc or good healer im dead , even with healer and some good champ im dead (1 shoted) and you give fighter 5% hp more...

And you're getting Power Surge nerfed.

This is asinine.

[blerkington]

Wrong. Pay to win Asimar are fine even in high-skull.

That was definitely a low point. It's very hard to take developers seriously when they talk about balance after they do stuff like this.

On the plus side, a new low point will be along shortly for sale in the store.

Thanks.

[MeliCat]

3. DPS cross healing stuck around into the high reapers. We weren’t really sure that non-caster cocoons were going to stick around in high skulls, since healing in general is debuffed as well as personally. It seems, though, that people do, and prefer this solution to another healer, probably because dps players are easier to find then dedicated healers, and things go faster. Anyway, we view this method pretty positively, as long as a healer or two are still appreciated in a group. We’ll try to not to disrupt it.

Thank you. I really appreciate that.

We original thought melee players needed a bit more help in reaper, and maybe many do but we also hear that there is some desire (in general) to see a few curve balls up in 6/7+ skulls, maybe. If this is the case, it would be our pleasure

Yeah. There are definitely some super confident players out there that need more spanking :P

[Wipey]

3. DPS cross healing stuck around into the high reapers. We weren’t really sure that non-caster cocoons were going to stick around in high skulls, since healing in general is debuffed as well as personally.

"Your data" should show that "cross hjealing" on any class is integral part of gameplay. Be it Cocoon, csw, cmw, Loh, aasimar hjeal or even twisted renewal or spring.
With proper amp and devo any duo or trio can comfortably hjeal each other up to 5 or 6 skulls.
New melee buff is big middle finger to every pally, ranger, bard and anyone else that watches red bars of their party.

But you have been shoving the "hjealer means only cleric or fvs and vice versa" mantra down our throats for years. Ironically after abundant and easy to get (self) healing was introduced.
/shrug

[noobodyfool]

"Your data" should show that "cross hjealing" on any class is integral part of gameplay. Be it Cocoon, csw, cmw, Loh, aasimar hjeal or even twisted renewal or spring.
With proper amp and devo any duo or trio can comfortably hjeal each other up to 5 or 6 skulls.
New melee buff is big middle finger to every pally, ranger, bard and anyone else that watches red bars of their party.

But you have been shoving the "hjealer means only cleric or fvs and vice versa" mantra down our throats for years. Ironically after abundant and easy to get (self) healing was introduced.
/shrug

For every reason you give I LOVE this feat MAWR Clerics and BACON FLaVOr.

Or remove self heal penalty so my fighters and pallyes can heal themselves.

[Silverleafeon]

Defensive Fighting Buffs

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

• Adjusted Feats
• The Complete list of "Fighting Feats" that apply:
  
  • Single Weapon Fighting --add +5% combat style tier 1 type hit point bonus
  • Improved Single Weapon Fighting--add +6% combat style tier 2 type hit point bonus
  • Greater Single Weapon Fighting--add +7% combat style tier 3 type hit point bonus
  • Perfect Single Weapon Fighting--add +8% combat style tier 4 type hit point bonus
    
    
  • Two Handed Fighting--add +5% combat style tier 1 type hit point bonus
  • Improved Two Handed Fighting--add +6% combat style tier 2 type hit point bonus
  • Greater Two Handed Fighting--add +7% combat style tier 3 type hit point bonus
  • Perfect Two Handed Fighting--add +8% combat style tier 4 type hit point bonus
    
    
  • Two Weapon Fighting--add +5% combat style tier 1 type hit point bonus
  • Improved Two Weapon Fighting--add +6% combat style tier 2 type hit point bonus
  • Greater Two Weapon Fighting--add +7% combat style tier 3 type hit point bonus
  • Perfect Two Weapon Fighting--add +8% combat style tier 4 type hit point bonus
    
    
  • Shield Mastery--add +5% combat style tier 1 type hit point bonus
  • Improved Shield Mastery--add +6% combat style tier 2 type hit point bonus
  • Improved Shield Bash--add +7% combat style tier 3 type hit point bonus
  • Deific Warding--add +8% combat style tier 4 type hit point bonus
    
    
  • Natural Fighting (first time taken)--add +5% combat style tier 1 type hit point bonus
  • Natural Fighting (second time taken)--add +6% combat style tier 2 type hit point bonus
  • Natural Fighting (third time taken)--add +7% combat style tier 3 type hit point bonus
  • Arcane Warrior--add +8% combat style tier 4 type hit point bonus
    
• Additional:
  
  • Paladin Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to competency (which it appears it always was, but the text was incorrect)
  • Aasimar racial hp bonus will be changed to Sacred (should now stack)

Barbarian DR Class Feature Revamp

• Barbarian DR no longer gives "classic" damage reduction like in old 3.5 of -1 damage per strike.
• Instead Barbarians now start with a 3% damage absorption to all damage except bane (this is a straight percentage of damage reduced BEFORE PRR/MRR calculation)
  
  • This resistance is increased at levels barbarians normal got DR increases, by 1%, net of 9% by level 20
  • Enhancements in the barbarian occult slayer line increase this by 1% instead of the DR they once increased for a total of 4% available from the tree.
  • The Fury of the Wild passive "Damage Reduction" increases this absorption by an additional 1% at the third rank.
• Total max: 14% damage absorption to all damage except bane. Requires a Pure Barbarian with the fifth Core in Occult Slayer and a tier 2 Fury of the Wild ability to achieve.

Melees do need help going toe to toe with foes.

This includes shield fighting style and simply shifts the penalties into a progressive feat tax.

Allowing some of these feats to apply in heroics is likely ok as melee going toe to toe do need help.

The initial toggle bonus is eliminated.

Hybrids or Tank Casters can still function well.

The main class that strongly benefits are Rangers.

[noobodyfool]

Defensive Fighting Buffs

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

• Adjusted Feats
• The Complete list of "Fighting Feats" that apply:
  
  • Single Weapon Fighting --add +5% combat style tier 1 type hit point bonus
  • Improved Single Weapon Fighting--add +6% combat style tier 2 type hit point bonus
  • Greater Single Weapon Fighting--add +7% combat style tier 3 type hit point bonus
  • Perfect Single Weapon Fighting--add +8% combat style tier 4 type hit point bonus
    
    
  • Two Handed Fighting--add +5% combat style tier 1 type hit point bonus
  • Improved Two Handed Fighting--add +6% combat style tier 2 type hit point bonus
  • Greater Two Handed Fighting--add +7% combat style tier 3 type hit point bonus
  • Perfect Two Handed Fighting--add +8% combat style tier 4 type hit point bonus
    
    
  • Two Weapon Fighting--add +5% combat style tier 1 type hit point bonus
  • Improved Two Weapon Fighting--add +6% combat style tier 2 type hit point bonus
  • Greater Two Weapon Fighting--add +7% combat style tier 3 type hit point bonus
  • Perfect Two Weapon Fighting--add +8% combat style tier 4 type hit point bonus
    
    
  • Shield Mastery--add +5% combat style tier 1 type hit point bonus
  • Improved Shield Mastery--add +6% combat style tier 2 type hit point bonus
  • Improved Shield Bash--add +7% combat style tier 3 type hit point bonus
  • Deific Warding--add +8% combat style tier 4 type hit point bonus
    
    
  • Natural Fighting (first time taken)--add +5% combat style tier 1 type hit point bonus
  • Natural Fighting (second time taken)--add +6% combat style tier 2 type hit point bonus
  • Natural Fighting (third time taken)--add +7% combat style tier 3 type hit point bonus
  • Arcane Warrior--add +8% combat style tier 4 type hit point bonus
    
• Additional:
  
  • Paladin Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to competency (which it appears it always was, but the text was incorrect)
  • Aasimar racial hp bonus will be changed to Sacred (should now stack)

Barbarian DR Class Feature Revamp

• Barbarian DR no longer gives "classic" damage reduction like in old 3.5 of -1 damage per strike.
• Instead Barbarians now start with a 3% damage absorption to all damage except bane (this is a straight percentage of damage reduced BEFORE PRR/MRR calculation)
  
  • This resistance is increased at levels barbarians normal got DR increases, by 1%, net of 9% by level 20
  • Enhancements in the barbarian occult slayer line increase this by 1% instead of the DR they once increased for a total of 4% available from the tree.
  • The Fury of the Wild passive "Damage Reduction" increases this absorption by an additional 1% at the third rank.
• Total max: 14% damage absorption to all damage except bane. Requires a Pure Barbarian with the fifth Core in Occult Slayer and a tier 2 Fury of the Wild ability to achieve.

Melees do need help going toe to toe with foes.

This includes shield fighting style and simply shifts the penalties into a progressive feat tax.

Allowing some of these feats to apply in heroics is likely ok as melee going toe to toe do need help.

The initial toggle bonus is eliminated.

Hybrids or Tank Casters can still function well.

The main class that strongly benefits are Rangers.

I like this can we add 1 thing 25% AC and MMR to Heavy Armor

[Grace_ana]

Sincerely, it gives the impression that more than solving a problem, you are lobbying to improve your characters

*gasp* What?!? Do you really think...I never saw it coming!

[Silverleafeon]

*gasp* What?!? Do you really think...I never saw it coming!

LOL +1


Every style would like flaws fixed.


The melee die too much.


Ranged build have less DPS than melee, partly because DDO keeps providing perches and hardly any monster can out run a player.


Casters get less powerful in Epics due to caster level issues linked to the poor Epic Destiny & Metamagic designs.


Specialist cannot use the sneaky skills.



Ect….

[noobodyfool]

Nubers for Newbs

[Duhboy]

My new favorite version....


Epic Defensive Fighting:

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

New Epic Feat
Auto granted at level 21
Toggled Ability
While Toggle is active:
10% Competence Bonus to max hit points, with an additional 10% for every combat "fighting" style feat you have, to a max of 50%. (Exact list below)
All spell or spell like abilities that are effected by metamagics have their ranged reduced to touch range (think shocking grasp)
Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
Exclusive from the Enlarge Spell Metamagic toggle
Remains active while dead
Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
Exclusive fromSHIELD DEFLECTION


The Complete list of "Fighting Feats" that apply:

Single Weapon Fighting
Improved Single Weapon Fighting
Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Perfect Single Weapon Fighting

Two Handed Fighting
Improved Two Handed Fighting
Greater Two Handed Fighting
Perfect Two Handed Fighting

Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Perfect Two Weapon Fighting

Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
Perfect Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Bash


Natural Fighting (Counts each time taken)


Additional:
Paladin Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to sacred (which it appears it always was, but the application was incorrect should now stack)
Aasimar Racial hp bonus will be changed to Sacred (should now stack)
Fighter Defensive Stance HP buff bonus will be changed to Athletic (should now stack)

/signed

Love it

[Kilgrave]

/signed

Love it

+1

[Silverleafeon]

Given that this feat went live pretty much as seen here....
Given that shield mastery was completely ignored...

Guessing that it is possible there will be several - half dozen various feat all toggles and all exclusive with each other such as:


Epic Shield Fighting (exclusive with any other Epic Fighting toggle feats)
Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.
New Epic Feat
Auto granted at level 21
Toggled Ability
While Toggle is active:
X% Competence Bonus to max physical resistances & +x/2% Competence Bonuse to max magical resistance, with an additional X & X/2% for every combat shield style feat you have, to a max of X*5%. (Exact list below)
{possible (though not recommended) All spell or spell like abilities that are effected by metamagics have their ranged reduced to touch range (think shocking grasp)
Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
Exclusive from the Enlarge Spell Metamagic toggle
Remains active while dead
Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
The Complete list of "Shield Feats" that apply:
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Bash
Shield Deflection
Deific Warding





Epic Magical Fighting (exclusive with any other Epic Fighting toggle feats)
Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, increasing their magical powers.
New Epic Feat
Auto granted at level 21
Toggled Ability
While Toggle is active:
Y% Competence Bonus to max universal spellpower, with an additional Y% for every metamagic style feat you have, to a max of Y*5%. (Exact list below)
Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
Remains active while dead
Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
The Complete list of "Metamagic Feats" that apply:
Empower Healing
Empower
Enlarge
considered omitting eschew & extend & heighten & Embolden, although no real reason to do so leaving them in...) Feel free to chime in
...
Maximize
Quicken
Intensify



Epic Eldritch Fighting (exclusive with any other Epic Fighting toggle feats)
Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, fueling their warlock powers.
New Epic Feat
Auto granted at level 21
Toggled Ability
While Toggle is active:
Passive
+1d6 Eldritch Blast dice.




Epic Magical Healing (exclusive with any other Epic Fighting toggle feats)
Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, increasing their healing powers.
New Epic Feat
Auto granted at level 21
Toggled Ability
While Toggle is active:
z% Competence Bonus to max devotion spellpower, with an additional z% for every metamagic style feat you have, to a max of z*5%. (Exact list below)
Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
Remains active while dead
Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
The Complete list of "Metamagic Feats" that apply:
Empower Healing
Empower
Enlarge
eschew & extend & heighten & Embolden
Maximize
Quicken
Intensify


Epic Magical Hybrid Fighting (exclusive with any other Epic Fighting toggle feats)
Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, increasing their magical & melee powers.
New Epic Feat
Auto granted at level 21
Toggled Ability
While Toggle is active:
C% Competence Bonus to _____________, with an additional YC for every ______ feat you have, to a max of Y*5%. (Exact list below)
Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
___________________




Epic Archer's Focus (exclusive with any other Epic Fighting Toggle Feats_
Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, increasing their ranged powers.
New Epic Feat
Auto Granted at level 21
Increases bonuses granted by Archer's Focus by ?




PS still do not like the impact on teamwork promoted by this feat, hopefully expanding the feat toggle variety might deal with some of this problem?

[Silverleafeon]

The Devs creating something along this would help Paladins and tank types feel better about the current situation and show that the Devs are working slowly thinking about all builds not just a few:

Epic Shield Fighting (exclusive with any other Epic Fighting toggle feats)
Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.
New Epic Feat
Auto granted at level 21
Toggled Ability
While Toggle is active:
5% Competence Bonus to max physical resistances & +2% Competence Bonuse to max magical resistance, with an additional 5 & 2% for every combat shield style feat you have, to a max of 5 & 2%. (Exact list below)
Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
Remains active while dead
Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
The Complete list of "Shield Feats" that apply:
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Bash
Shield Deflection
Deific Warding


Yes, I am dropping the touch range restriction off of Pally & tank builds since they are unlikely to have offensive spells.
…...


Given that the Favored Soul HP bonuses sometimes bugs, it is possible code wise that

recoding Maxmize to grant 150 + (150/20)*epic levels earned would be more buggy

than creating an epic toggle that grants +5% universal Spellpower per metamagic feat taken (limit max bonus of +25% universal Spellpower)

But I will leave that for others to decide....





At least the hybrids would have the choice of :

More HP and terrible range of touch
or
More Spellpower
or
Feat Tax for Tank option