Melee Survivability Changes - Some First Steps

[blerkington]

A new difficulty has been added: R11-R20

Soon

Yep quite possible. Only thing that seems more likely to me right now is a soon-to-be-added new epic levels grind.

Thanks.

[ComicRelief]

I'm not sure I understand the reason for this defensive stance to "hamper" ranged, especially given that other defensive stances don't.

*snip*

• While Toggle is active:
  
  • Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
  • Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)

*snip*

Besides, I wouldn't necessarily call this "hamper" - more like outright negates. Please help me understand "why". My primary melee fighter will 90%+ be wielding melee, but on the rare occasion I want/need to pull a bow, I'll have to re-engage the possible three or four ranged stances every time??? Seems like an awful lot of potential clicking *before* even firing a single shot - switch to bow, click ranged stance (if available) - repeat if more than one, fire; switch to melee, click new defensive stance, swing. I don't see the reason for this.

Reducing doubleshot to zero? Probably fine. Ranged power to zero? Really? Perhaps try reducing ranged power by 50% to start and not be an exclusive toggle to the ranged stances. (A 'true' melee build probably wouldn't have a lot in ranged power anyway.)

Maybe for warlock (hehehe)...

[HuneyMunster]

I'm guessing the reasoning is this: Most of the Melee who are having trouble with Reaper damage is getting taken down from damage that they can't avoid or mitigate in any reasonably timely fashion.

Horrid Wilting for example has at best a save to protect you for half damage. Having just recently gone into a Legendary Tempest Spine, and getting a Horrid Wilting from Sorjeck at R3 and taking 3-4.5k damage (so around 1.5k to 2k saved damage). That was still in excess of 500 HP above what my toon was able to absorb even had I made the save. Having around another 50% Health would have been "just enough" to take a hit from something like that assuming I don't scrimp on my Fort Save.

Even with high PRR and MRR to tackle the incoming damage (that can be reduced by it), you still rely on HP to abosrb the hit (they go hand in hand with each other). Therefore, the first thing to boost would be HP in this case. As it is only the first step in changes being done.

J1NG

The problem with Horrid Wilting is that it ignores MRR, but wouldnt make much difference to me as my melee wears leather so capped at 100, though I have even less due to new items having physical sheltering instead of regular sheltering.


The bigger issue for me is encounters like Fortis in tavern brawl and Markessa in slave lord part 2 then hp. Fortis tell gives just 1 second to make 20-40 yards to avoid the aoe force damage or I die. Markessa as far as I know has no tell when the force burst is used. Im not sure if these are activated after certain amount of seconds or at certain hp thresholds, but they will 1 shot me still even with the hp changes. Allowing ways to avoid rather than soak damage would at least retain some kind of skill to gameplay thatn just mindless standing there auto attacking.

There probably many other examples out there.

Giving dangerous aoe attacks more obvious tells along with enough time to avoid the damage would be more of a benefit than just adding bloated hp.

[SirValentine]

Or is there some other motive why you want caster to succeed where melees struggle?

Since, other than in your imagination, that's not something I want, the question of what my motive is doesn't even arise.

Really, I don't see either caster or melee struggling, in Elite or high-skull, when they work together. My melees struggle with no CC; my casters struggle with no DPS. But together, it's great.

Any way, what did you mean with decent build? a heroic completionist? an epic one?

You realize it's possible to, accidentally, or deliberately, make a gimp build in DDO? A decent build is one that's not like that. No past lives are required to make a sound build. You're way more out of touch than you seem to think I am if you think Completionist is any sort of requirement.

How long has it been since you played a pure barb or 2hf fighter and took it from 20 to 30 on a bad pug though EE? or R5 (a pug setting these days)

I leveled a (1st-life) melee (2wf, though) a few months back, and I'm leveling a (1st-life) 2hf melee up right now, currently 27, both mostly pugs, and mostly Elite or R1, with a few higher. Why does that matter?

I'm specifically asking because your question makes me wonder if you did recently.

Why? Why do you care? What characters I play is relevant how? Why the personal innuendo attacks? If you have something to say about the actual topic, instead of my characters, go ahead & say it.

[Requiro]

+1

To Torc:

Free 50% more HP for everyone? You guys really don't know how to balance your game, isn't it?

Short answer: MORE CHOICE is good. FLAT HP increase is bad.

Solution: More feats, more tactics play style, more balance in Enhancements trees, revamp Epic Destinies - this is what melee needs!

For example changes in barbarian are great - you made useless ability to something great.
THIS is good way to improve melee.

BTW: I hope that you guys don't adjust game to Reaper difficult...

[Yamani]

BTW: I hope that you guys don't adjust game to Reaper difficult...

To late.

[Cordovan]

Thanks for the feedback so far, we'll have to ponder it. A few things:

- This is deliberately meant to not be attractive to ranged and spellcaster characters. We wouldn't want anything like this adjustment to help non-hand-to-hand-melee-focused characters. This is by design. This is deliberately only a buff to melee characters, not people who sometimes melee, or who cast spells predominantly, or who are ranged-focused. They are not in need of a change like this.

- This isn't necessarily intended to be always-on. It's a situational boost to melee builds who need a bit of help when going toe-to-toe with some enemies.

- This is not meant to be on during situations when a spellcasting melee would be casting spells on other players. So if you need to heal other players, you shouldn't be using this. If you are spot healing or buffing, this isn't for you.

- One of the reasons we are considering this change is to address the community's concern that melee are not able to compete in more difficult content with their spellcasting and ranged-using friends. If there is a larger belief that this is not the case, we'd love to hear that.

[PsychoBlonde]

10% Competence Bonus to max hit points, with an additional 10% for every combat "fighting" style feat you have, to a max of 50%. (Exact list below)

So, it doesn't stack with Paladin/Fighter/Druid tank stance HP, but DOES stack with Paragon Body from Renegade Mastermaker and Strength of Vitality from Unyielding Sentinel?

What type of bonus is Dwarf "Child of the Mountain" hp bonus? It doesn't say.

How does the range reduction thing work with artificer admixtures, which have a REALLY screwy range on them?

So, basically Renegade Mastermaker Arti just became the exclusive God Tank Build and Paladin/Fighter/Druid are not tanks any more because ANY melee can more than match them with a free toggle and NOT LOSE ANY DAMAGE IN THE PROCESS. Oh, and they can benefit from rage while the actual tank trees, who give up SUBSTANTIAL dps for it, cannot (apart from druid).

This seems like a really weird direction to go and NOT well thought out at ALL. It makes high DPS melee builds into gods who don't have to give up anything for survivability, and tanks (except Renegade Mastermaker) even more completely pointless.

I mean, seriously, you say you want this to be situational, but on most melee builds I see absolutely NO reason to EVER turn this off.

If you want to make this *situational* for melee, it'd need to have further restrictions like:

You can't use tactical abilities while it's on (no stunning fist, trip, stunning blow, dire charge, shield charge, etc.)
You get -2 to critical multiplier (to a minimum of x2)
You generate 75% extra threat
You cannot make sneak attacks
Exclusive with Power Attack and Precision

And make the HP STACK WITH EVERYTHING, not a COMPETENCE bonus.

That way, it's a way for a non-tank melee to become tanky if needed (but they lose a ton of DPS potential), and it's actually a bonus for REAL tanks when they need it, but it doesn't leave your DPS completely untouched!

I'd also suggest making it give you HEAL AMP equal to the HP bonus, so 10+10 for each fighting feat, up to 50. That'll make it so that it's easier to heal you up when you're boosted. Huge wads of HP aren't worth much if they can't be filled.

[JP457]

"Fixing" things by throwing HP at it is not a fix. Its a crutch. Stop bending to fanbois and whiners and stop the cycle of adding power without adding balance.

And bring back my Henshin Monk's MP. Apparently that was OP but giving him 50% more HP isn't?

[SerPounce]

That's a lot of power creep.

Also it's a nail in the coffin of any kind of hybrid build. No melee healers, no vistani wizard. If you melee, you melee and that's it. Maybe you heal yourself a bit in low-mid reaper.

Does melee need it? Maybe? Well played melee can do very well, but they are squishy AF. +50% HP is certainly nice, but it really only adds a modest additional buffer in mid+ reaper.

I'm not really against it, I just worry about the whole process of everyone thinking that every difficulty level should be easy on their preferred toon. And instead of improving their build or tactics they come here and complain until they get a massive boost. Already seeing the same thing with caster DPS.

Maybe this should probably be combined with a nerf to some of the outlier DPS abilities like scion of ethereal and dire charge?

[J1NG]

Markessa as far as I know has no tell when the force burst is used.

Actually she has a tell. But whilst in melee, it's VERY hard to tell. Basically once she casts a particular spell (I can't remember off the top of my head right now), she will do a minor animation prior to the Force Blast. But this doesn't help anyone in melee range as it's so hard to see/tell the differences.

Giving dangerous aoe attacks more obvious tells along with enough time to avoid the damage would be more of a benefit than just adding bloated hp.

I like this idea too. But that'll more likely need more time to implement even if considered. The HP change is quicker. And with dwindling player bass increasing, it's better to have something done "now" than later I suppose. Especially in SSG case where their money comes from; the players.

And lets be real honest. R10 players are about to retire anyway and stop playing (money to SSG = zero). Trying to appease them all the time is pointless as the money from them won't be coming in all the time. So changes to help players who are going to stay or more likely to stay if the game isn't overley harsh is where development time would be if I was in charge.

J1NG

[SirValentine]

- This is deliberately meant to not be attractive to ranged and spellcaster characters.

OK.

- This is not meant to be on during situations when a spellcasting melee would be casting spells on other players. So if you need to heal other players, you shouldn't be using this. If you are spot healing or buffing, this isn't for you.

So why are you creating something that isn't for anybody at all? There's no need for +50% HP in Elite (is there?), and in Reaper pretty much everybody needs to heal other players. We finally got some moderate degree of cooperation back in the game after the powercreep made Elite a too-easy-solo-fest, and now you want to directly discourage such cooperation?

- One of the reasons we are considering this change is to address the community's concern that melee are not able to compete in more difficult content with their spellcasting and ranged-using friends. If there is a larger belief that this is not the case, we'd love to hear that.

"compete"? What is the competition based on?

If you mean contribute meaningfully in difficult content, then I know that's not that case. Groups I'm in, including ones I'm leading, generally want more melee. If we have 1 or 2 DC casters, we don't want 3 or 4 or 6 DC casters, we want DPS, and melee have it, big time.

[Arkat]

Free 50% more HP for everyone?

None for S&B melees...unless you count Bards swashbuckling with bucklers.

[Rykka]

Thanks for the feedback so far, we'll have to ponder it. A few things:
snip
- One of the reasons we are considering this change is to address the community's concern that melee are not able to compete in more difficult content with their spellcasting and ranged-using friends. If there is a larger belief that this is not the case, we'd love to hear that.

This is not the case. I guess you're hearing it here first even though we've been over this dozens of times.

[Magnus_Arcanis]

I’m generally in favor of upping HP, but was breaking this down and began to struggle to answer the question… Who is this for?

Seriously, you say just about anyone can take it, but who would actually use it? The only classes in the game that don’t have spell or spell like abilities are Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues. Of course, that’s not including stuff from epic destines or twists… or multi-classing. Might even remove Rogues from that list if you consider wands and scrolls. So yeah, just non-sword&shield DPS focused fighters and barbarians will enjoy this feat.

A ton of races lose some serious options. Half of your vistani ability to use ranged power instead of melee power just went out the window. It heavily incentives people not bring or use a ranged weapon cause they want to keep the toggle on…

So instead of upping the hit points for most melee, you’ve only given a reason for narrow builds to stay narrow. A huge reason, now that they’ll like have more hit points than likely any other build. Add in the Barbarian DR change (a good change in my opinion, one you should consider for all sources of DR)… The Barbarian completely wins this step. They’re purely better with these changes. Fighter comes in second place, but like every other class it loses some options as it is now less efficient to take a defensive stance.

I know there are more steps to take, but this one feels like it missed its mark.

[Gratch]

This seems like a really weird direction to go and NOT well thought out at ALL. It makes high DPS melee builds into gods who don't have to give up anything for survivability, and tanks (except Renegade Mastermaker) even more completely pointless.

I mean, seriously, you say you want this to be situational, but on most melee builds I see absolutely NO reason to EVER turn this off.

If you want to make this *situational* for melee, it'd need to have further restrictions like:

You can't use tactical abilities while it's on (no stunning fist, trip, stunning blow, dire charge, shield charge, etc.)
You get -2 to critical multiplier (to a minimum of x2)
You generate 75% extra threat
You cannot make sneak attacks
Exclusive with Power Attack and Precision

And make the HP STACK WITH EVERYTHING, not a COMPETENCE bonus.

That way, it's a way for a non-tank melee to become tanky if needed (but they lose a ton of DPS potential), and it's actually a bonus for REAL tanks when they need it, but it doesn't leave your DPS completely untouched!

^Fully agree with this. I would also add an attack speed debuff as a possible means to make it situational.

[axel15810]

So, it doesn't stack with Paladin/Fighter/Druid tank stance HP, but DOES stack with Paragon Body from Renegade Mastermaker and Strength of Vitality from Unyielding Sentinel?

Checked the wiki, sacred defender stance is a scared bonus, so paladin tanks should still benefit. Fighter and Druid stances are indeed competence bonuses though so this presumably won't stack.

[1cebeast]

- One of the reasons we are considering this change is to address the community's concern that melee are not able to compete in more difficult content with their spellcasting and ranged-using friends. If there is a larger belief that this is not the case, we'd love to hear that.[/QUOTE]

the more difficult content seems to be Reaper difficulty, right?
change the reaper trees. somehow set this "CLICKIE" so it can be chosen with only 1 reaper point, but can only be activated at level 21, with the other Tier 4 choices. make the changes available only in Reaper Settings.
If their is a concern that melee are not able to compete in EE content, I am not seeing the issue.

[Thar]

The problem is how hard the mobs hit. so no one, casters or not can be in melee range. HP is a easy fix but only delays the pain. you have to make AC and defense worth something again. Can this be done today? yes but to the avoidance of all dps. ie tanks with 20% dodge, 500 AC and 300 prr. Then you can survive melee in epics/reaper but you can't kill anything. so you need to double AC bonuses in epic, double prr results in epic and maybe dodge cap scales as you level to higher than today. hp's is only a plan if you do nothing else that is really needed for defense. and a shield should matter...

[tafla421]

shield builds should get double the bonus... and of course be included in the above unless there is a further plan for them to get buffed differently.

I agree with you to an extent. of course this doesn't matter if you have a fighting line but if you just use shields then only tower should get double or basically +100% hp, large should be somewhere in the +75% to 50% range, small shield should be 50% to 25% range and bucklers should be 25% to 10%. I mean lets face it buckler users are probably going to be swashbucklers and have the single weapon fighting line so they get 50% anyways. oh and make it a must be proficient requirement so people cant just throw on a shield to gain the full extra hp whenever they want.