Melee Survivability Changes - Some First Steps

[redoubt]

Some people look for any and every excuse as to why they can't do something. The rest just figure out how to do it.

Just because you didn't build for enough PRR doesn't mean it can't be done. Assuming you intended to run that toon in mid and high skull reapers, it just means you built poorly

180 was a conservative case scenario. 200 is easy to hit. I have standing 172 PRR and 44 dodge without Blitz on a cloth armor DPS melee toon with exactly 1 epic PRR PL and 0 PDK PLs. 202 PRR with Blitz. 217 in Earth stance instead of Water/Air. 226 w/ 9 PRR from Reaper points. That toon also has around 1.6k HPs in Reaper with a grand total of 14 Reaper AP. Could have added a few more PRR with a few enhancement swaps, but 200ish seems to be good enough for up to R6/7. Am I soloing R6 with it? No way. Am I running in R6-10 groups and "contributing"? Most definitely.

So as a person that really does run mid to high skull reapers successfully on a low PL, non-meta DPS melee build, I still say the HP buff is a bad idea.

Also, DPS melee users should go for BOTH Silent Avenger AND Adherents set bonuses. At least that's what I've done on all my cloth and light armor toons. The fact that you don't is quite telling.

Correct that you can build for it and you should if you want to play at that level. But I will caveat that monk is a poor example.

I'd love to have both sets on my assassin (my main) but I also have hide, move silent, spot and assassinate to keep on at all times. I was just losing too much to get the second set plugged in. But that is to be expected as SSG hates assassins and just wants anyone who use stealth in anyway to just go away...

[redoubt]

Any comparable medium and heavy armor build will have more PRR and MRR than that.

Please go troll somewhere else. Seriously, you're being ridiculous at this point.

Yes. Now I ask, do you feel that the increased MRR/PRR make up for 44% dodge and evasion?

[Shadow_Jumper]

Breakdown please.

Page 34

My current PRR breakdown (VKF tree build right now)

• 10 EDR
• 2 INH PRR Feat
• 12 Mist Stalker
• 10 Vistani Fortune
• 11 Quality
• 50 Enhancement
• 20 Light Armor
• 20 Profane
• 30 Blitz
• 16 Filigree
  
  181 PRR with no PL/Reaper Point investment
  
  
• 9 Mythic
• 27 EPL
• 9 PDK PL
• 9 Reaper Points
  
  235 PRR
  
  Finally, short term buffs:
  
  
• 10 Vistani Fortune Active
• 30 Mist Stalker Active
• 10 Tenser's Transformation
  

With the 9 from mythic bonuses, and 9 from reaper point investment sitting at 199.

[LT218]

Correct that you can build for it and you should if you want to play at that level. But I will caveat that monk is a poor example.

I'd love to have both sets on my assassin (my main) but I also have hide, move silent, spot and assassinate to keep on at all times. I was just losing too much to get the second set plugged in. But that is to be expected as SSG hates assassins and just wants anyone who use stealth in anyway to just go away...

Choices have pros and cons. There are multiple assassin players that are have zero problems being effective in high skull reapers. It's all about what you choose.

Also, any melee DPS build can roll with both sets if you choose. Monks, Rogues, Rangers, Barbs, Bards, Fighters, etc. The gear set is essentially the same for all of them minus class specific variances on a Slave Lords or Cannith Crafted item.

Or you can choose to roll without them and be a glass cannon soul stone in high skull reaper then just come here and complain that stuff is too hard in hopes that the devs get tired of hearing it and dumb it down enough for you.

Yes. Now I ask, do you feel that the increased MRR/PRR make up for 44% dodge and evasion?

Yes. Wouldn't have mentioned it if I didn't.

I've seen several heavy armor melee builds that are durable as hell in high skull reaper. Especially for strength-based melee DPS builds, going full PRR and MRR is a much better option than trying to spread your stats and APs across prr, mrr, str, dex, dodge, etc. Just focus on Str, PRR and MRR.

The nice thing about MRR is that it works even against spells that don't have a save like Polar Ray, Cyclonic blast spell, etc. Ask any cloth + evasion build how they like being hit with Cyclonic Blast and Polar Ray at 10-skull. =P

[LT218]

Overstatement is an act of stating something more profoundly than it actually is, in order to make the point more serious or important or beautiful. In literature, writers use overstatement as a literary technique for the sake of humor, and for laying emphasis on a certain point.

That's all for today

Still no math or facts to support your made up statements? Not surprised at all.

At this point, I am assuming that your refusal to post any sort of verifiable facts or math that supports your crazy claim is due to you a) know you're trolling and know that there isn't any valid math that could support them and/or b) maybe you do believe the junk you're spouting here but you're too bad at math to actually figure it out.

Either way, all you've done for months is plaster this forum with unsubstantiated, incorrect statements. Any time that gets pointed out, you just try to spin it with some vague logical fallacy in an effort to divert attention from it.

[noobodyfool]

Still no math or facts to support your made up statements? Not surprised at all.

At this point, I am assuming that your refusal to post any sort of verifiable facts or math that supports your crazy claim is due to you a) know you're trolling and know that there isn't any valid math that could support them and/or b) maybe you do believe the junk you're spouting here but you're too bad at math to actually figure it out.

Either way, all you've done for months is plaster this forum with unsubstantiated, incorrect statements. Any time that gets pointed out, you just try to spin it with some vague logical fallacy in an effort to divert attention from it.

What are you talking about Selvera already did the math and later made this statement

And any way you look at it; PRR is the wrong way to add bonus surviability to melees, and I agree with Torc's reasons for using HP instead. I just disagree with him as to how much; when (well; he said he's in no rush so we might agree there) and what tradeoffs to make while getting that extra HP.

This is in agreement with what I stated using an overstatement for emphasis of 500 prr knowing it was less, honestly I never did the math but I guessed it would be close to 250 when I thought about it later which it was.

So maybe you missed all this I don't know but again your making false accusations about me perhaps a liable suite is in order.

[LT218]

What are you talking about Selvera already did the math and later made this statement

This is in agreement with what I stated using an overstatement for emphasis of 500 prr knowing it was less, honestly I never did the math but I guessed it would be close to 250 when I thought about it later which it was.

So maybe you missed all this I don't know but again your making false accusations about me perhaps a liable suite is in order.

Selvera's math proved yours wrong. He/she simply said that they don't think PRR is the way to accomplish want the devs hope to. You on the other hand have been spouting untruth after untruth in this thread.

At least you finally admit that you had basically just made that up instead of it being a fact like you presented it to be. Pulling the "I was exaggerating" for effect card doesn't help either.

Nothing I've said is false.

[Garthog77]

What are you talking about Selvera already did the math and later made this statement



This is in agreement with what I stated using an overstatement for emphasis of 500 prr knowing it was less, honestly I never did the math but I guessed it would be close to 250 when I thought about it later which it was.

So maybe you missed all this I don't know but again your making false accusations about me perhaps a liable suite is in order.

LMAO

If nothing else I got a really good laugh out of this. Funny stuff.

[MonadRebelion]

The changes to the barbarian DR seem fine to me. The new free melee feat seems absurd to me. It's going to give a massive totally unnecessary buff to melees. Also, this is going to make my eldritch knight fall even farther behind. This is just going to turn reaper into elite. That seems bad to me.

[elvesunited]

Issue: Shield Mastery and Improved shield Mastery do not get the hp bonus.

Solution: Shield Mastery, two handed weapons, two weapon fighting, natural fighting, single weapon fighting lines all provide the bonus but like combat style melee power bonus most of them provide, they do not stack with each other.


Issue: Spell casting reduced to touch range only preventing spot healing and buffing support from many characters.

Solution: Limit this to offensive spells. Or if this isn't feasible then reduce spellpower ( except for positive and repair ) to 0 and give all enemies a +200 to saves and spell resistance to spells cast by a spell caster with this feat active.


Issue: Hybrid melee/caster are made even less attractive by this feat.

Solution: Making the eldritch knight less attractive might cause a divide by zero error. But anyway for eldritch knight, warpriest and warsoul. Make it as part of their higher up core enhancements or Tier 5 enhancements that they get to ignore the spell casting penalty of the new feat. It's not really possible to make these characters over-powered.


Issue: Not applying benefits to pure tanks who take the hp bonus from their enhancement tree.

Solution: I think this is being done to handle an issue which doesn't really exist. Super tanks. Aside from being extremely rare, it doesn't really effect them. Tanks of that power are all about the grind. If the enemy is doing more damage than the tank than the tank can recover from then the tank dies and at best the extra hp requires a few more hits for the enemy to do it. If the tank can recover from and avoid damage better than the enemy can dish it out then the enemy dies and the new hp doesn't make the slightest difference as it was never that close. What this does effect are those tanks who are not maxed out walls of impenetrable hp. So make the hp bonus different type then the enhancement bonuses.

[Silverleafeon]

Epic Defensive Fighting

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

• New Epic Feat
• Auto granted at level 21
• Toggled Ability
• While Toggle is active:
  
  • 15% Untyped Bonus to max hit points, with an additional 5% gained at both level 26 and 28
  • Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
  • Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
  • Remains active while dead
  • Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
  • Cannot be activated if one has the Magical Training feat

This addresses many of the flaws (including exploits of taking unnecessary combat feats with the intention of swapping later on).

[Slazinger1]

The changes to the barbarian DR seem fine to me. The new free melee feat seems absurd to me. It's going to give a massive totally unnecessary buff to melees. Also, this is going to make my eldritch knight fall even farther behind. This is just going to turn reaper into elite. That seems bad to me.

That is what they have always wanted. Why else would they put in a huge first time bonus for running reaper unless they wanted that to be the default difficulty? They had all this talk about how reaper wasn't meant for everyone, then they go and put in all these ridiculous incentives an bonuses in it to make it easier than elite and more attractive to run.

[Silverleafeon]

Personal preference would be:


Epic Defensive Fighting

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

• New Epic Feat
• Auto granted at level 21
• Toggled Ability
• While Toggle is active:
  
  • 2% Untyped Bonus to max hit points per Epic level gained.
  • Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
  • Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
  • Remains active while dead
  • Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
  • Cannot be activated if one has the Magical Training feat

Prefer that Epic Destinies are level gated by Epic Levels and other bonuses do the same.

If you are truly concerned about Melee in Epics, surely one should consider raising Epic Destiny levels from six minus 1 xp to ten while level gating thus. It would make Epic Leveling more interesting.

This also reduces total HP bonus to 20% which is much more reasonable bonus.

[elvesunited]

Epic Defensive Fighting

Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.

• New Epic Feat
• Auto granted at level 21
• Toggled Ability
• While Toggle is active:
  
  • 15% Untyped Bonus to max hit points, with an additional 5% gained at both level 26 and 28
  • Reduces your Doubleshot and Ranged Power to 0 while active.
  • Exclusive from Range stances (Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, Warlock Blast stances.)
  • Remains active while dead
  • Can be used with other defensive/offensive stances & Rage
  • Cannot be activated if one has the Magical Training feat

This addresses many of the flaws (including exploits of taking unnecessary combat feats with the intention of swapping later on).

magic training feat is a little harsh. That takes out eldritch knights ( someday DDO will try to fix them ), warpriests, warsouls, melee druids, cleric-(melee class). Some of these are actual melee/offensive caster hybrids ( who in no way qualify as over-powered ) and others are passive casters who would never cast an offensive spell.

[redoubt]

Choices have pros and cons. There are multiple assassin players that are have zero problems being effective in high skull reapers. It's all about what you choose.

Also, any melee DPS build can roll with both sets if you choose. Monks, Rogues, Rangers, Barbs, Bards, Fighters, etc. The gear set is essentially the same for all of them minus class specific variances on a Slave Lords or Cannith Crafted item.

Or you can choose to roll without them and be a glass cannon soul stone in high skull reaper then just come here and complain that stuff is too hard in hopes that the devs get tired of hearing it and dumb it down enough for you.


Yes. Wouldn't have mentioned it if I didn't.

I've seen several heavy armor melee builds that are durable as hell in high skull reaper. Especially for strength-based melee DPS builds, going full PRR and MRR is a much better option than trying to spread your stats and APs across prr, mrr, str, dex, dodge, etc. Just focus on Str, PRR and MRR.

The nice thing about MRR is that it works even against spells that don't have a save like Polar Ray, Cyclonic blast spell, etc. Ask any cloth + evasion build how they like being hit with Cyclonic Blast and Polar Ray at 10-skull. =P

1. I'm not asking for this change.

2. This conversation always turns to "cloth+evasion" which means monk, which is evidence of a balance problem.

3. It also turns to "run in LD or stop complaining", which is also evidence of a balance problem if only one ED is worth running in.

4. This change completely ignores that most players are requesting that tactics be used and not just a lump of HP. (For me, that means tactical use of stealth, for others, trip, stun etc.)

[Shadow_Jumper]

3. It also turns to "run in LD or stop complaining", which is also evidence of a balance problem if only one ED is worth running in.

4. This change completely ignores that most players are requesting that tactics be used and not just a lump of HP. (For me, that means tactical use of stealth, for others, trip, stun etc.)

They don’t care about tactics. At this point, accept the HP buff, accept that no ED other than LD is worth running, and just roll with it. They’ll listen to players that feed their viewpoints and the game will be worse off for it.

To the extent stealth needs further adjustment in non-Reaper difficulty, we are interested in looking into that when time permits. There is no intention to make stealth mechanics more functional in Reaper difficulty, as we deliberately do not support stealth mechanics in Reaper.

They basically want to give you Hp and hope it silences..err satisfies the forum.

[noobodyfool]

They don’t care about tactics. At this point, accept the HP buff, accept that no ED other than LD is worth running, and just roll with it. They’ll listen to players that feed their viewpoints and the game will be worse off for it.



They basically want to give you Hp and hope it silences..err satisfies the forum.

3 steps to go! Hopefully the other improvements don't get watered down or we balance with a chisel and not clay and mortar.

When buffs come for other classes melee will not forget the support or lack of support by others.

[LT218]

1. I'm not asking for this change.

2. This conversation always turns to "cloth+evasion" which means monk, which is evidence of a balance problem.

3. It also turns to "run in LD or stop complaining", which is also evidence of a balance problem if only one ED is worth running in.

4. This change completely ignores that most players are requesting that tactics be used and not just a lump of HP. (For me, that means tactical use of stealth, for others, trip, stun etc.)

1 - Ok? not sure what that is in response to.

2 - Of course it does. Your two defensive meta choices in this game are cloth/light armor + higher dodge cap + evasion or medium/heavy armor + PRR + MRR. Why would you not think it would come down to that? It's not evidence of a problem. It's evidence that there's a choice which is what I thought we were discussing.

3 - Yes, you are correct. LD being several orders of magnitude better than any of the other DPS destinies for melee DPS is a problem. The bigger problem is that if enough people complain about that, SSG's history shows that they'll probably just get ****ed off that people are complaining, nerf the bejezus out of LD so that it's orders of magnitude worse than all the other melee DPS destinies and call it a day. Even though this would actually make the melee survivability problem in reaper worse, they'd still do it then wonder why people are still complaining about melee in reaper. Refer to Henshin quarterstaff builds and Kensai's Power Surge for recent examples of this petty behavior on their part. Your best option is to just accept this and run in LD.

4 - What change? The HP change? Not sure if you've noticed but I'm not in favor of the HP change and am in fact one of the players saying giving struggling melee players a lump of HPs while significantly reducing their ability to contribute to the overall group teamwork in multiple other ways is a bad, bad idea.

[bls904c2]

4 - What change? The HP change? Not sure if you've noticed but I'm not in favor of the HP change and am in fact one of the players saying giving struggling melee players a lump of HPs while significantly reducing their ability to contribute to the overall group teamwork in multiple other ways is a bad, bad idea.

this sums up how i feel about the hit points.

[redoubt]

They don’t care about tactics. At this point, accept the HP buff, accept that no ED other than LD is worth running, and just roll with it. They’ll listen to players that feed their viewpoints and the game will be worse off for it.



They basically want to give you Hp and hope it silences..err satisfies the forum.

And silence is what they will get... Sarlona LFM is already a ghost town.