Melee Survivability Changes - Some First Steps

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

I've thought about this quite a bit more now and I think the epic defensive fighting feat should give 2% DR (like the new barbarian DR and stacks with it) per melee combat feat acquired (the one's in Torc's post) with a cap of 8% or maybe 10%. It should retain most of existing negative effects except change the ranged power debuff to 25%.

This way it offers a bit of absorb for those who heavily invest in melee feats and pally's and fighters get good benefit from it as well. Barbarians would be able to get their DR up to 22% but to do so they would have to incur the penalties like no healing other players etc. 2 weapon rangers who switch in a bow would still get some use but would have a heavy hit to their dps.

50% more HP is just far to radical a change to not have people up in arms.

[Loromir]

With the feat in its current form, I'm on record that I hate it. It looks to me over complicated and for some builds another thing to manage on their hot bar. The biggest issue I see with this feat is that it does nothing for teamwork in the form of healing others. I will go on a limb here and say a lot of players will not like this feat because of the limitation to supportive healing. Since Reaper came out I have stopped grouping and just solo elite/hard, so hey, this doesn't affect me other than I get more hit points that I don't need.

There are a lot of technical changes that could be made like mobs running past you to get to the guy in the back and around the corner out of sight, giving mobs more than 3 attacks, mobs that run past you and stop on the spot they first saw you. The biggest issues I have seen with ranged is the near spam of instakills, CC procs that slow mobs way down, such high damage that at least 2-3 mobs are killed before the melee can engage in hand to hand combat. My experience is limited and can only go by what I seen in groups and done myself with my ranger. One suggestion could be a penalty to run speed while back pedaling and increased miss chance jumping and shooting.

As far as hit points, how much is "needed" is in relation to difficulty of content. The more difficult content is, the more hit points mobs have, the longer it takes to kill mobs which increases the chances for healing and damage intake. Damage output goes hand in hand with this too. I still don't understand the point of this feat and why not just do an epic Toughness feat for melee. Still, all either of these really do is grant more hit points to some builds and there is no close in gap other than more melee will have higher points that will be closer or more distanced with casters and ranged who will still have the same power output you are trying to close the gap with.

I have always known this would happen and had been happening, but changes involving Reaper should be in Reaper. Is SSG trying to intentionally trivialize elite and below difficulties, phase them out pushing more players into Reaper? Because changes with intentions to improve Reaper just continue to trivialize elite and below.

Just to be clear...these are auto-granted feats. No one is having to give up something else to get this. If any of these people who "Hate it" don't want to use it....they don't have to....period (And nothing will have changed for that player from the day before when these feats didn't exist). For those of us inferior players who like to play melee and need a little help staying alive...well then we "Love it".

If you hate it...then don't even bother to add the toggle icon to your hot bar...and presto...no need to manage another slot on your hot bar. You can continue playing as you did before. Just as uber as you ever were.

I do however agree with your comment "Because changes with intentions to improve Reaper just continue to trivialize elite and below".

[the_one_dwarfforged]

So... We have concluded that melee dps (not counting tanks) is at least much harder to play, from a player skill point of view, if not needing some help in general.

Why is the fact that melee is harder to play than physical ranged DPS characters a bad thing? Given the nature of the differences between the two styles, shouldn't melees be riskier and more difficult but also more rewarding while ranged offers a safer, more consistent, less difficult but less rewarding play style?

- Melee "physically dodge" less attacks than Ranged To be clear I mean avoiding the mobs swing detect or projectile outright, no hit roll even. Not even talking about static defenses yet... less distance to threat equal less time to react. We realize some players are exceptionally good at doing this even in melee, but it's much harder.

So...since this is exactly the reason why ranged DPS should not be as high as it is and is one of the main sources of balance problems in the game, the obvious solution then is to...treat the symptoms? Not the cause?

- So monster damage, why not lower it? The thing is to challenge a melee character, and a ranged character equally, you really need a different ratio of hits to kill. Our ranged characters, "kiters", can be really hard to catch, so killing them in something like only two or three hits is probably about right for high difficulty, but for a melee getting tagged three times in close succession is much more likely unavoidable. We want to support really hard difficulty, but it's hard to do with these two groups being too "similar" in toughness

I'm not against a buff giving melees 1 extra hit to live, even if they were to receive other buffs, but I think the execution here is actually...I mean, it's confusing, it's stupid, it's insane, I don't understand why this and not literally ANYTHING else. It's a free feat, it scales based off of feats that are nearly guaranteed to be taken by the intended beneficiaries of the feat, and it invalidates existing class features. I guess that would be O.K. if the trees were going to be un****ed following this, but.... The one good thing about this is at least you were considering how your actions interacted with the game as a whole instead of just doing something that seemed like a good idea in a vacuum, you just need more practice doing that.

- Don't melee have tools to solve this already? Yes they have tools, but... 1> The best ones require a shield or heavy armor, so that leaves some folks out 2> Many of these tools are generally available, and we need a durability difference in the two play styles or the monster damage is going to be wrong for someone. It's why this feat has so many odd rules to it.

Stop this **** right now. PRR is not a tool. HP is not a tool. AC is not a tool. MRR is not a tool. These things are chairs. You either have them, or you don't. If you have them, you sit on them. If you don't, you complain about having to stand. Dire charge is a tool. Blocking is a tool. Moving is a tool. Tools are things you USE. DDO is an MMORPG, it's about stats, it can't be ignored. The game is fundamentally just a stat check, and necessarily so. The people who play this game aren't here to showcase their "playerskill". All that being said, let's not call ****ing HP a tool for dealing with dynamic circumstances. God. ****ing. ****.

- But melee does more damage! "Technically". But opportunity cost is a thing, and many ranged builds have really good burst via many shot/fury of the wild, so unless the fight goes so long, often the melee don't have a significant dps lead.

W-wha... wow. Yes.

- Isn't 50% too extreme? Really depends on the difficulty you play on. We could see this buff going down to 30%, making it a cheap semi alternate to the defensive stances, but when you look at 7+ skulls, it's probably only buying you a couple of hits. It will make things easier, but in our view it means certain builds will play on higher difficulties than say some other builds which were already up there.

I approve of making the game less of a build check. It's actually the most unfun thing when you are playing, by yourself, in a group, on reaper, or on casual, and you're playing a build you like to play but know that everything you do could be done 50%+ better by another build you simply don't enjoy playing. Much wow.

- This will make things too easy! Yes, but hopefully in a way that lets us make it harder in a more balanced way going forward. Epic defense is really about creating a toughness difference between melee & ranged so we can challenge them correctly.

I don't object to the basic idea of this buff but I think if you want to challenge different play styles appropriately I think more is needed (I recognize you have acknowledged this). I would reduce the HP bonus of this feat, make it a unique bonus type, and have the stance grant immunity to whatever mechanics you do/want to use to slow/catch ranged DPS. Additionally improvements to the relationship between what players see enemies doing and what actually happens to the players would probably be the single best thing you could do to address this situation. Finally, giving melees a tool (yes, actually a tool, not ****ing stats) strictly for defense like a feat which grants a bonus to either dodge or PRR based on STR score, or STR mod, or attack mod or stun DC, or whatever you want (plsnothigheststatagain) while blocking would be pretty great.

On Nerfs... So ranged damage is already scaled down more aggressively than melee, but we really don't like pushing that solution. There was a period on DDO where range damage was very low on account of their mobility, but I don't think we can go back there. We'd just have an inverse of the same problem. Our damage ratios aren't really the problem. It's the hit points, and having a significant difference in hit points between and melee and ranged is, well, exceedingly common in rpg design, perhaps for good reason.

Having an "inverse of the same problem" isn't the reason you "can't" go back there but I agree that if ranged DPS was garbage like it should be (JK, it should only almost be garbage) it wouldn't be fun to play. I guess the question is, "how to make a play style fun even if it doesn't do the most DPS, since it necessarily can't?". Well, one idea that jumps out at me is making the game experience more about input rather than output; tying DPS to actions, ability usage, player inputs, proper execution more than it is now (and it's a lot better than it used to be) rather than "all classes deal equal DPS, because of class balance, primarily from holding down a button and AFKing, but some classes are more equal than others". I'm 100% sure if someone who wants to play a bard spent all their time debuffing enemies with insults and buffing allies with songs and did **** DPS that they would have more fun than playing DPS class that also has some low tier buffs which don't get used in combat.

I think a core part of RPG design that's been lacking in DDO for a long time is the R.

[Requiro]

Dare I say that it started with some folks complaining?

Though it was probably more like three things...

• We have periodically seen traffic on the forums from melee players complaining they’re having trouble surviving. Folks often posted counter to this, stating this could be overcome.

It was like 6 month ago, when people used to solo, forget what is mean teamwork. I don't see any more then other play style complaining nowadays.

• As we watch players play the game, we've noticed melee dps was under represented on high difficulty. Not gone entirely, but, noticeable more uncommon. I'm talking mostly about raids, or reaper 6+ skulls.

When do you balance game around Reaper 6+, huh?
When you guys (Devs) introduce Raeper, Devs promise us, that it will never happen. I guess after some time, you will balance game around that new +50% hp boost feat?

Besides if you see this "problem" do some changes in reaper 6+ and raids, not add flat HP bonus to every melee in game. Do you realize that with this new feat, you made every other content for all melees so trivial than you will not see them anymore in lower difficulties? That is your goal?

• When the team would run play days on elite/reaper we would often experience some of what the forums seem to be talking about. "Random" deaths on our melee dps due to stray shots, even when the tank was on top of aggro. While better builds help, it took noticeably more work than say a ranged dps build.

If better build help, then what is the problem? Do some changes in build, do more options, made some minor improvements, add something to clearly melee abilities and "problem" will gone.

So... We have concluded that melee dps (not counting tanks) is at least much harder to play, from a player skill point of view, if not needing some help in general.

So instead of some buffs (like barbarian - good changes), new feats (that you can e.g. take only with 18 levels only), Epic Destiny rework, Reaper bonuses rework, Melee enhancements rework – you decided to add completely game changing flat HP increase.

I'm just disappointed. Completely.

If you guys don’t have time to do much more then HP increase then why so stupidly approach to this matter?

Reaper are also before level 21. And with level 21 you got almost always 50% more HP. So no scaling at all. Perfect example how to NOT DESIGN scaling buffs.

Why not something like this:
New Feat stance (General feat, require Feat slot, could be taken from level 1): Add bonus to HP based on mostly melee oriented abilities and feat. Effect depends on quest type and difficult:

• No effect on Casual and Normal [0%/0%]
• Half effect on Hard and Elite [5%/7,5%]
• Full effect on Reaper 1 - 3 and Heroic Raids [10%/15%]
• Double effect on Reaper 4 – 6 and Epic Raids [20%/30%]
• Triple effect on Reaper 7 - 10 [30%/45%]
• [x%/x%] – means bonus from fighting style line (4 feats) / full bonus with all special attack and fighting style (9 feats)

List of all abilities that give bonus HP

• Single/THW/TWF/Natural fighting – 2% HP
• Improved fighting – 2% HP
• Greater fighting – 3% HP
• Perfect fighting – 3% HP
• Cleave, Improved Cleave, Sap, Slicing Blow, Stunning Blow – 1% HP each
• Total: 10% HP from fighting style (4 feats) and 5% additional from Special attacks feats (5 feats)

[noobodyfool]

Can we get a notification on login and loading screen to let folks know where to find forum and directions how to join so we can get some different perspectives. I would like to suggest term limits as well drain the swamp.

[Hipparan]

I'm actually looking forward to having this on my tank. I tend not to take the Tier 5 enhancement in Sacred Defender (I like Vanguard too much), so really what this does is let me spend the 3 AP I would be spending on the 20% HP bonus on something else like the +6 Str or +6 Con I would normally be giving up. For people who take the Tier 5 enhancement in Sacred or Stalwart Defender, you can view this as a way to get your Tier 5 for free in Epic levels and instead spend the 3 AP on something else in the tree or something like Mistwalker from Vistani, Harper Enchantment from Harper, or extra PRR from Falconry.

[Saekee]

/not signed

[noobodyfool]

Can we get a notification on login and loading screen to let folks know where to find forum and directions how to join so we can get some different perspectives. I would like to suggest term limits as well drain the swamp.

just a bit of sarcasm to bring down the toxic avengers hehe

[Anaximandroz]

It is not the case. It's more a case of balance.

1) A monk with robes will be pushing around 200 PRR alongside shadow veil for 25% incorporeal miss chance, and 45% or higher dodge. The avoidance available to a monk makes them very powerful in most content. Especially if you consider the panic heal option of an Aasimar monk with healing hands. They have the jade strike line with 3 different attacks that cause helplessness on separate cooldowns. Stunning fist only has a 6 second cooldown compared to stunning blow, and has a higher DC as it includes 1/2 character level, whereas stunning blow does not.

2) A barbarian has reasonable survival between the combination of a number of factors. Large HP pool means they can take a hit or 2, medium armor means they can push higher PRR and MRR than a monk. They have the improved uncanny dodge clicky for 50% dodge in a pinch. "I like pain" is a reliable source of many hundreds of temp HP, as well as "blood tribute". They have the no-save ear smash to temporarily take out the largest threat.

3) Rogues, typically wearing light armour usually max out their dodge somewhere between 25% - 35% with uncanny for 50% in a pinch. Vistani variants have mist stalker available for a PRR/MRR/Dodge/MaxDodge panic button. Unless you go a max DEX acrobat your battlefield CC is limited to basically a dire charge at lvl 29. Other than that they don't have much to control the flow of battle.

4) Paladins have Sacred defense which grants them a large amount of PRR and MRR, and lay on hands in a panic situation, a strictly inferior healing hands as it scales off Paladin level where healing hands is off Character level, right there is a 33% comparative loss in effectiveness. The number of hands is less than an Aasimar's healing hands, plus, barring some ED abilities, they do not regenerate. Paladins also tend towards medium or heavy armour meaning dodge is typically quite low. They have no access to a clicky dodge, or incorporeal miss chance so unless you build up AC you WILL be hit often. They only have Stunning Blow (assuming you take it), trip and dire charge, meaning controlling the battlefield is an issue as most mobs remain free to act.

5) Rangers typically wear light armour, they have respectable dodge somewhere around 25% - 30% they don't have a panic clicky of any sort. No large panic heal, no dodge clicky, no prr/mrr clicky. They have no CC other than Stunning Blow, Trip and dire charge.

6) Fighters... oh fighters. They SHOULD be the king of battlefield control as far as melee are concerned, yet they have nothing to control with. Stunning Blow has a long cool down and a low DC and can not be used on undead or constructs and is single target. Trip and Improved trip are single target and don't work on incorporeal enemies. The enhancements they have are blah at best. Where a barbarian can click a button to get temp HP with blood tribute, a fighter can... drink a potion to get +50 healing amp. Amplification which does them no good because they have no way to actually heal themselves mid combat. Should they go with medium or heavy armour they have low dodge, meaning more hits connect, and if they go light, then they sacrifice PRR and MRR. They don't have a panic heal like a paladin, nor a dodge clicky like a barbarian.

All in all it isn't a case of melee being unable to compete with ranged and spell casters. It's more so a case that if you want to compete, your options are limited due to the current meta of the game being a combination of:
A) avoiding attacks altogether (ie: monk with its dodge, incorp, AC)
B) controlling the situation to reduce the number of incoming attacks (ie: monk with its jade strikes, stunning fist, kukan-do, barbarian ear smash, dire charge, trip)
C) reacting to damage you do take and being able to either heal or mitigate it (ie: Barbarian's I like pain and blood tribute, Aasimar's healing hands, improved uncanny dodge, mist stalker v, spinning staff wall, etc.)

A blanket "give all melee (up to) +50% HP" does nothing to address any of the 3 points above. All it does is give veteran players a safety cushion, and newer players 1 or 2 extra hits before they die as they currently already are.

Pallys and fighters can have some CC if they invest on Vanguard (even if the tree is somewhat hard to control and , literally, broken sometimes). But i agree with you. I asked to be considered on the fighter(Kensei) pass adding more cc in the defender tree as a way to balance with the healing and better saves a pally defender gets. Since reaper come out the only melee i played was a char based pdk warchanter/swashbukcler and he was fine for all the heroic and most epic content because a could stun, blind, sap and freeze. I would prefer to make improved trip a cleaver, reduce stunning blow cooldown to 1/3, whirlwind attack a sap and etc.

Also more power to S&B so we see more vanguards: give at least the perfect shield mastery, shields don't are affected by improved critical bludgeon (what would make hammer/mace&B attractive) the last customizable shield was in LoB/MA era.

And doesnt make much sense too me say "All melees are squish" and left the tanks out from the +50% hp (they would gain overall a 30% or less - if they use shields - and some dps). Just looks like a general homogenization of melees.

[noobodyfool]

Perfect shield mastery I like it yea lets do that and improve tatics

[Qhualor]

Just to be clear...these are auto-granted feats. No one is having to give up something else to get this. If any of these people who "Hate it" don't want to use it....they don't have to....period (And nothing will have changed for that player from the day before when these feats didn't exist). For those of us inferior players who like to play melee and need a little help staying alive...well then we "Love it".

If you hate it...then don't even bother to add the toggle icon to your hot bar...and presto...no need to manage another slot on your hot bar. You can continue playing as you did before. Just as uber as you ever were.

I do however agree with your comment "Because changes with intentions to improve Reaper just continue to trivialize elite and below".

Correct. If players don't like the feat they don't have to use it. As I said earlier, my barb has no reason to toggle it off, but if I were to group my ranger would either need to micro manage another thing out of dozens of abilities on the hot bar or just not use it. It certainly defeats the intention of the feat (more hit points for melee), unless the actual focus for melee is fighter and barbarians.

I have always hated the argument "if you don't like it than don't use it". It says to me "tough, deal with it and forget trying to come up with something that more players and devs can agree with.". The whole point of this thread is to have a discussion on step 1 of this process, get player reaction and feedback. This is my feedback. If you don't like it than, you know your own advice.

[Shadow_Jumper]

On Nerfs... So ranged damage is already scaled down more aggressively than melee, but we really don't like pushing that solution. There was a period on DDO where range damage was very low on account of their mobility, but I don't think we can go back there. We'd just have an inverse of the same problem. Our damage ratios aren't really the problem. It's the hit points, and having a significant difference in hit points between and melee and ranged is, well, exceedingly common in rpg design, perhaps for good reason.

-T

That you want a bigger difference between ranged & casters survivability compared to Melee is understandable. However I believe this is the wrong way to go about it. It goes agains everything in that makes DDO fun: unique build paths, and meaningful build choices.

It also makes no sense that the devs always tackle these problems with more power creep (or in this case power jump). If you want to make a large survivability difference between caster/ranged then reduce their benefits from prr and add more unique attacks to mobs.

Your example of ranged damage nerf as the path you think of shows that you are not even thinking of the common sense solutions. The solution to survivability problems between the roles isn’t a ranged damage nerf.

The solutions should allow for more tactics, more active and interactive gameplay, and should enable each build to shine with varying strengths. This just homogenizes builds into bloated HP sacks that do 20k+ DPS and hack anything down.

If you want to make such a large difference in survivability then just make ranged/casters not recieve an HP benefit from reaper trees, and nerf their prr benefit by half. Most of them won’t even notice it until they start taking more damage because prr seems to have a stigma of uselessness in these forums.

BTW I run with Helter on r10 and their melee get one shot. You should come along to confirm the need for this buff. xD You need to be aware that this buff will allow most UBERMELEE to facetank r10 bosses with a healer.

Yes. Melee still get 1-shot in r10 if they play dumb. Considering the multitude of defensive clickies available (Thick Skin, Displacement Clickies, Incanny Dodge, Meld, Discorperation, Radiant Forcefield just to name some off the top of my head), there’s plenty of defensive clickies for those struggling in r10. R10 is defined by it being unforgiving, and for rewarding stupid play with quick deaths. Experience is a good teacher, and pain is the best teacher of all.

If your melee is getting one shot in r10 then I recommend you run with a tank, play like any hit could be your last, and to use your defensive abilities. However, over the last year, one of the common things I’ve heard from players who have complained about melee survivability is that they do not enjoy having to use clickies and active attacks.

If you refuse to use the myriad of defensive abilities available, you should not be asking for defensive buffs.

Also; I plan on being on lamma, and I believe Feel already extended an invite to the devs. Would love for Torc or Cordovan to tag along and chat with us to see how we approach the game’s challenges.

Looking forward to trying the change out, but I'm not guaranteeing I won't be super critical. In the mean time have a deadpool. We're all looking forward to the new raid. Don't give us too many puzzles... lol <3 <3 <3

A Deadpool is always appreciated anywhere <3 and yes, I’m always excited for more raids at cap.

[Loromir]

Yes. Melee still get 1-shot in r10 if they play dumb. Considering the multitude of defensive clickies available (Thick Skin, Displacement Clickies, Incanny Dodge, Meld, Discorperation, Radiant Forcefield just to name some off the top of my head), there’s plenty of defensive clickies for those struggling in r10. R10 is defined by it being unforgiving, and for rewarding stupid play with quick deaths. Experience is a good teacher, and pain is the best teacher of all.

If your melee is getting one shot in r10 then I recommend you run with a tank, play like any hit could be your last, and to use your defensive abilities. However, over the last year, one of the common things I’ve heard from players who have complained about melee survivability is that they do not enjoy having to use clickies and active attacks.

If you refuse to use the myriad of defensive abilities available, you should not be asking for defensive buffs.

The problem with this is...that melees have to change their play style drastically to play in Reaper vs Epic. They have to be able to jump in and out of attack range quickly just to get a single hit in...and hope they don't get hit themselves. In the current incarnation...only the very best of the very best players can jump on a Melee character and survive in R10 content. Maybe only a half dozen players of that calibre in the whole game IMO. Even with all those defensive clickies mentioned above...a one or two shot death is still highly likely.

Whereas...an above average player (There are hundreds of them in this game)can play a ranged or caster and still have a pretty good hope of surviving R10.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I believe this is the wrong way to go about it. It goes agains everything in that makes DDO fun: unique build paths, and meaningful build choices.

It also makes no sense that the devs always tackle these problems with more power creep (or in this case power jump). If you want to make a large survivability difference between caster/ranged then reduce their benefits from prr and add more unique attacks to mobs.

Your example of ranged damage nerf as the path you think of shows that you are not even thinking of the common sense solutions. The solution to survivability problems between the roles isn’t a ranged damage nerf.

The solutions should allow for more tactics, more active and interactive gameplay, and should enable each build to shine with varying strengths. This just homogenizes builds into bloated HP sacks that do 20k+ DPS and hack anything down.

If you want to make such a large difference in survivability then just make ranged/casters not recieve an HP benefit from reaper trees, and nerf their prr benefit by half. Most of them won’t even notice it until they start taking more damage because prr seems to have a stigma of uselessness in these forums.
.

+1 Much wisdom these words

Torc's statement about providing different "challenges" to ranged and melee is correct. The PLAYERS feedback about how to go about this even more so.

[Shadow_Jumper]

The problem with this is...that melees have to change their play style drastically to play in Reaper vs Epic. They have to be able to jump in and out of attack range quickly just to get a single hit in...and hope they don't get hit themselves. In the current incarnation...only the very best of the very best players can jump on a Melee character and survive in R10 content. Maybe only a half dozen players of that calibre in the whole game IMO. Even with all those defensive clickies mentioned above...a one or two shot death is still highly likely.

Whereas...an above average player (There are hundreds of them in this game)can play a ranged or caster and still have a pretty good hope of surviving R10.

Lol. If your playstyle doesn’t change from epic to reaper, then idk.

Reaper is DESIGNED to change your playstyle. I don’t play r10 the same way I play r7.

Light melee will get one shot by bosses/champions mainly, but could survive some with the boosts active
Defensive melee will get one shot mostly only by the pando-bear level champions.
Tanks won’t get one-shot ever.

That’s the current melee meta in r10.

If I wanted to face roll content in a game with homogenized progression and boring battle mechanics I’d play wow or runescape or some other terrible game. Facerolling content is not fun.

[Rull]

Why is the fact that melee is harder to play than physical ranged DPS characters a bad thing? Given the nature of the differences between the two styles, shouldn't melees be riskier and more difficult but also more rewarding while ranged offers a safer, more consistent, less difficult but less rewarding play style?

No, in my opinion, melee/ranged is not a tradeoff of offense/defense, at least it should not be.
It's just a different playstyle, with a diffent k?*nd of defense. Where a ranged character takes less hits because he's just not in range to take them, a melee character can endure the hits he does take better.
The tradeoff for offense for defense should be another tradeoff, like picking up a shield.
At least that is were I think DDO should be going. In the past we had situations where ranged was significantly less dps and significantly more survivable and I don't think either was good for the game.

Look at League of Legends for instance. The ranged AD or mage don't deal less damage there either, they are just squishy to make up for their ranged advantage.

[hit_fido]

It's the hit points, and having a significant difference in hit points between and melee and ranged is, well, exceedingly common in rpg design, perhaps for good reason.

I'd prefer basing the hit point adjustment on the class's hit die or whatever the proper term is. In theory, a barbarian (d12) should have roughly 3 times as many hit points as a wizard (d4) and twice as many as a warlock (d6). Itemization means everyone at cap has similar +whatever CON, +whatever vitality, +whatever false life, etc etc so the classic spread of hit point durability is warped.

Classic hit dice roughly corresponds with melee archetypes having more hit points and ranged/spell having fewer.

I like the simplicity of Defensive Fighting feat - +5% AC for -5% to-hit chance. You're trading durability for damage. Make this epic toggle similar/simpler:

• When toggled on, the character's maximum HP increases by 10 x hitdie for each epic level. At 30 your barbarian is getting +1200hp, your wizard gets +400hp.
• When toggled on, the character's ranged power, doubleshot, spell power, spell critical chance, and spell DC are lowered by 50%.

That seems like it would be enough to penalize any non-melee situation without the long and more complicated list of forbidden stances, ranged touch, and all the other rules stuff in your bullet point list. It means certain builds still benefit from their actual "tank" stances instead of overlapping percentage based bonus.

[Cantor]

And what happened to barbs, a poultry 14% but you have to take the 5th core in OS? meh, didn't you plan to give them 18%?
Wait a minute, Fury of the wild's "damage reduction" is a 1 dr per rank, so thats 3% not 1, recalculating:
9 from barb, 4 from Ocult Slayer and 3 from the ED (twist) makes 16

His post said the third rank in fury gave 1%, so it's 14. I think this is a reasonable change since the initial proposal had 8% for a minimum barb splash and the twist, they are trying to make it a barb aspect not a splashed aspect. I think it would be nice if they buffed the higher cores to compensate though.



As many have stated, it's a huge mistake if the HP don't stack with defensive stances.

[Niminae]

[*]The Complete list of "Fighting Feats" that apply:

• Single Weapon Fighting
• Improved Single Weapon Fighting
• Greater Single Weapon Fighting
• Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
  
  
• Two Handed Fighting
• Improved Two Handed Fighting
• Greater Two Handed Fighting
• Perfect Two Handed Fighting
  
  
• Two Weapon Fighting
• Improved Two Weapon Fighting
• Greater Two Weapon Fighting
• Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
  
  
• Natural Fighting (Counts each time taken)

Not a single shield feat in the mix? Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Bash? Not all melee builds take a weapon style chain.

[Fivetigers33]

TLDR, so sorry if something similar was mentioned but here's my input.

Basically it looks like you want to give melee's 50% more hp and exclude that bonus from casters and ranged. The main problem is what happens to melee bards, druids, clerics, favored souls, artificers, and to a lesser extent paladins and rangers?

•All spell or spell like abilities that are effected by metamagics have their ranged reduced to touch range (think shocking grasp)
should be removed.

If you want to make sure that primarily caster builds aren't getting a free 10% hp, don't have the Epic Defensive Fighting feat itself grant 10% hp. Simply give all the fighting style feats a 12.5% bonus instead of 10% and all the melee classes will end up with their intended 50% bonus and all caster builds without any fighting style feats won't get any bonus hp. And at the same time, any melee/caster hybrids can still use their spells.