17 Fighter 3 Bard

[Coffey]

Edit: I wanted to put more time in to this to make it better sorry for the delay.

[Coffey]

For a relatively new player i have been looking for a build that starts strong and finishes strong by level 18. I only have basic classes and races to work with and i am F2P starting a new character looking to do my TRs with Tokens of the twelve. The reason i would like to try this build is for the increased weapon damage you have compared to pure Fighter or Paladin vanguard. (Paladin doesnt work with bard splash because of the alignment btw) While running TRs you dont get any benefit from enhancement core 5 or 6 really or just a short time which is a waste to base your build on it. If you are farming at 20 it would be ok though but you could farm just fine with this split. Hjarki has been posting some builds similar to this and he told me that bard swashbuckling works well with fighter vanguard. I would have been leveling a pure fighter vanguard right now if i had not talked with him about this possibility.

A fighter vanguard has a weapon attack speed of 20% at cap and only 10% at level 12. With SWF you have 10% weapon attack speed from the beginning and 30% attack speed at level 12 (Your Single Weapon Fighting bonus is increased to a +30% Combat Style bonus to attack speed and an additional +2 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power, for a total of +6 Combat Style bonus to Melee Power. You now apply 50% more of your appropriate ability score to your damage.). You will have access to vanguard for stunning shield and 50-60% chance to make a secondary shield bash. It does not benefit from the cores in vanguard for weapon attack speed but does benefit from secondary shield bash increases.

The benefits from the bard 3 splash are:
25% run speed.
swashbuckling stance which gives Hand Axe +4 to critical threat range.
Skirmisher passive allows you to use a swashbuckler shield with Single Weapon Fighting and benefit from both. It also gives you 10% dodge. In this build with just the enhancements from swashbuckler gives you a total 14% dodge not too shabby.

Using swashbuckling stance requires Light Armor though. You could use heavy armor with out swashbuckling enabled and opt for Khopesh or Dwarven War axe which both have 3x weapon critical damage multiplier. You would want to to add a critical threat range increase by going Tier 5 Kensai for Keen Edge. That would require dropping Tier 5 vanguard which would weaken this builds ability a lot.

Single Weapon Fighting line requires a total of 7 skill points in to balance.

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17 Fighter 3 Bard  
Level 20 True Neutral Human

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    23
Dexterity            14                    14
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              8                     8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               4                     9
Jump                  4                    22
Search                2                    10.5

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Single Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Bard)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery


Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 7 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Single Weapon Fighting


Level 8 (Fighter)


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 10 (Fighter)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Tacticle Combatant


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Single Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Tacticle Training


Level 14 (Fighter)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility
Feat: (Selected) Tacticle Master


Level 16 (Fighter)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Tacticle Supremacy


Level 20 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Spiritual Bond (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strike With No Thought (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Overbalance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Confidence (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Swashbuckling (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - On Your Toes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - On Your Toes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - On Your Toes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Blow By Blow (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Blow By Blow (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Blow By Blow (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - En Pointe (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - En Pointe (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - En Pointe (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Skirmisher (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - To the Fore! (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Combat (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Vicious Shield (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Combat II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Specialization I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - No Weakness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - No Weakness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Specialization II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Brutality (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Brutality (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Brutality (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Stunning Shield (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Stunning Shield (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Stunning Shield (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Specialization III (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Follow Up (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Follow Up (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Follow Up (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Fatal Bulwark (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Specialization IV (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Charge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Charge (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Charge (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Myrmidon's Edge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Myrmidon's Edge (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Myrmidon's Edge (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield to the Face (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Disorienting Smash (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Disorienting Smash (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Disorienting Smash (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Rush (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Rush (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Shield Rush (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Vanguard (Ftr) - Armored Strength (Rank 1)

I will have access to a 32 point build after the first TR.

Lower levels have very few ways to add double strike to the build. There is a total of 10% in this build atm.
Shield Mastery (3%)
Improved Shield Mastery (5%)
Kensai Strike with no Thought core 3 (1%)
Swashbuckling core 2 (1%)

I am looking at a splash 5-9 cleric for Strength domain to gain +2 str uses str instead of dex for reflex saves and immunity to knockdown.
I would have to add extend spell for Divine Power (The divine power of a god imbues the caster with power and skill in combat, granting a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, 1 temporary hit point per caster level, and a base attack bonus equal to a Fighter of the same level. Runs 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per caster level). It would only allow for enhancement core levels 3 though. Divine Might is only 4 AP to add which is relatively cheap investment. Divine might adds charisma modifier to strength which will increase hit damage as well as stun DCs. May add Force of Personality feat for charisma to will saves for better rounded defense as i have seen a lot of people do.

This is just a rough draft without cleric added but i agree 1 level would make this a lot better.

Any ideas or comments would be appreciated

[C-Dog]

Bard + Fighter as a solid TR template for any 3rd class has been around for a while, altho' the recommended mix for TR is Bard 5 + Fighter 3.

But if you take that loose concept and find a 3rd class that has strong synergy, sure, that + more fighter +X is going to work.

o Bard 5 /Ftr 3 https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5634052
o Bard 5 / Ftr 3 / X 12 https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5891810
& Full Build https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5634793

[Coffey]

Bard + Fighter as a solid TR template for any 3rd class has been around for a while, altho' the recommended mix for TR is Bard 5 + Fighter 3.

But if you take that loose concept and find a 3rd class that has strong synergy, sure, that + more fighter +X is going to work.

Thanks very much, i will give them a read.

[unbongwah]

Using swashbuckling stance requires Light Armor though.

The light armor requirement on Swashbuckling makes a rogue splash an obvious choice, both for Evasion and bonus XP from trapping. Particularly since ftr 17 gets you nothing on this build. The only downside to rogue splash IMO is delaying your other class levels which means backloading other enhancements. Also fighter is a low skill pt class so it's tough to keep up trap skills on a first-lifer.

Lower levels have very few ways to add double strike to the build. There is a total of 13% in this build.
Shield Mastery (3%)
Improved Shield Mastery (8%)

These two feats are 8% total, not 3% + 8%. If you take this build into epics, Legendary Shield Mastery would be an extra 7% for 15% total.

I am looking at a splash 5-9 cleric for Strength domain to gain +2 str uses str instead of dex for reflex saves and immunity to knockdown.

Bard 3 / cleric 5 / ftr 12 might be a reasonable option. I wouldn't take more than 5 cleric levels on this build concept because you would lose lvl 12 ftr bonuse; Power Surge is too good to pass up, IMO, especially if you're trying to max out your STR.

I would have to add extend spell for Divine Power

Divine Power is available on clickies or scrolls. However, because the Strength bonus is enhancement, it doesn't stack with gear so it's largely useless. The Warpriest / Warsoul Divine Power enhancement is now a Sacred STR bonus, but I don't think that was applied to the actual spell.

You might as well add the Cleave feats to your build.

Bard + Fighter as a solid TR template for any 3rd class has been around for a while, altho' the recommended mix for TR is Bard 5 + Fighter 3.

While those templates still work, remember they're 3 years old and predate the latest DPS buffage. In particular, the bard 3 / ftr 6 combo using handaxes or light picks has been a pretty nice option since the Kensei pass. And I would also consider bard 3 / barb 5-6 going for Focused Wrath (tier-5 FB) now that it's a +2 crit multipler bonus.

[Coffey]

The light armor requirement on Swashbuckling makes a rogue splash an obvious choice, both for Evasion and bonus XP from trapping. Particularly since ftr 17 gets you nothing on this build. The only downside to rogue splash IMO is delaying your other class levels which means backloading other enhancements. Also fighter is a low skill pt class so it's tough to keep up trap skills on a first-lifer.

I wasnt sure if stalwart stance worked with evasion or not so i dropped the idea at the time. And youre right i would need a pretty significant int tome to keep up with the skills.

These two feats are 8% total, not 3% + 8%. If you take this build into epics, Legendary Shield Mastery would be an extra 7% for 15% total.

Nice catch i will edit these numbers.

Bard 3 / cleric 5 / ftr 12 might be a reasonable option. I wouldn't take more than 5 cleric levels on this build concept because you would lose lvl 12 ftr bonuse; Power Surge is too good to pass up, IMO, especially if you're trying to max out your STR.

I thought about power surge too (4th core kensai) and would especially be good because it adds +8 str and +8 cha for 1 minute. This works with Haste Boost id imagine.

Divine Power is available on clickies or scrolls. However, because the Strength bonus is enhancement, it doesn't stack with gear so it's largely useless. The Warpriest / Warsoul Divine Power enhancement is now a Sacred STR bonus, but I don't think that was applied to the actual spell.

I was more concerned about full BAB but youre right bonuses dont stack in ddo just applies the highest value.

You might as well add the Cleave feats to your build.

I like cleaving instant aoe damage. I will gladly add these to the build.

While those templates still work, remember they're 3 years old and predate the latest DPS buffage. In particular, the bard 3 / ftr 6 combo using handaxes or light picks has been a pretty nice option since the Kensei pass. And I would also consider bard 3 / barb 5-6 going for Focused Wrath (tier-5 FB) now that it's a +2 crit multipler bonus.

I was looking at this. I would have to drop vanguard for frenzied berserker tier 5. What type of CC could replace that?

[Selvera]

So yeah; my first suggestion is that this is a heroic TR build that you're planning out; so don't plan 20 levels. Plan either 18 levels (if you plan on banking until 20) or 19 levels (if you like to take level 19 and run stuff like stormhorns until cap). It's typically advised for newer players to bank at 18 until cap, so let's start thinking in terms of an 18 level build.

6 fighter/3 bard is the basis of any handaxe build; which leaves you 9 more levels to play with.

We're looking at the following ideas for those levels:
Fighter: 2 more levels allow greater weapon focus; 6 more levels allows the level 12 core abilities.
Bard: 1 more level allows tier4s, 2 more levels allow tier 5s, 3 more levels allows core 3s, 9 levels allows core 4s.
Cleric: 1 level allows divine might, 2 levels allows domains, 5 levels allows upgraded domains.
Rogue: 1 level allows trapping, 2 levels allows evasion

With 9 levels to play with; there's a lot of ways to do this, trying to get them all to add up correctly for powerspikes at or before level 18. One possible split would look like 12 fighter/4 bard/2 cleric. This allows the level 12 core abilities from fighter; the tier 4 abilities out of bard trees and divine power/domains from cleric. (while you likely won't have the AP for tier 4 bard stuff; there's very little point in getting 1 extra level of fighter or cleric).

In terms of cleric domains; I'll agree that with a 2 level splash strength domain is probably the best for a build like this; although I don't consider +2 strength a huge benefit (it's decent/good, but not great); I do consider healing all stat damage to strength every 6 seconds as very useful in some content (which tends to give good xp). In terms of deities; it doesn't matter at all since all deities are supremely useless for a level 2 melee cleric.

As you know; I did a handaxe split optimized for level 30 before which I enjoyed, for this build however, I did not start using handaxes until level 10; and there is two reasons for this. The first is that the forgotten axe is min level 10, the second reason is that the fastest you can get the combination of abilities which gives handaxes better damage then any other weapon for the build takes fighter 6/bard 3 = level 9. For this reason, even if you don't have the forgotten axe (it is a little annoying to farm), I recommend using other/better weapons at lower levels, then switch to handaxe once you have the key cores for maximizing handaxes. Personally; I used the tiefling's assassin blade from level 4-9, and there are a lot of reasons why this is a great weapon for those levels; but it's even more annoying to farm then the forgotten axe. If you're not using a tieflings, a vorpal rapier is probably second best for this level range (or just other vorpal swashbuckling weapon).

Now; here's a bit of a trick to the smooth leveling of swashbuckler builds. Dashing scoundrel is actually really powerful at low levels; it grants 10% doublestrike and +6 damage which is significantly better then +10% dodge until you reach mid levels where the stats you get from having an offhand shield, the feats free for the shield feats and the relatively lower increase in damage that +6/+10% grants you makes using a buckler better then empty hand mastery for both damage and defense. For this reason I suggest starting with dashing scoundrel; and at some point (probably around level 8 to 12) respec the swashbuckling tree and switch over to using skirmisher. If you have a Swashbuckler, then bucklers become better then empty hand at a lower level then if you're trying to use any other shield.

In terms of leveling order; I jot down this leveling order as a possible order:
Smallstrong Axe
12/4/2 Fighter/Bard/Cleric
True Neutral Human


Level Order
1. Bard. . . . . . 6. Fighter . . . .11. Fighter . . . .16. Fighter
2. Bard. . . . . . 7. Fighter . . . .12. Fighter . . . .17. Fighter
3. Bard. . . . . . 8. Fighter . . . .13. Fighter . . . .18. Bard
4. Cleric. . . . . 9. Fighter . . . .14. Fighter
5. Cleric. . . . .10. Fighter . . . .15. Fighter
[/font]

This is designed to get swashbuckling as quickly as possible and try to hit fighter 6/bard 3 as close to level 10 as possible; but I put in the cleric levels early to open up divine might; and get the strength-damage-repair before the main quests I can think about which deal large amounts of strength damage (basically the necropolis chains, although irestone inlet does a lot of it too).

In terms of stats; if you want a cleric splash; you'll want some charisma to make use of divine might; as well as for UMD and bard spells. Meanwhile I'd probably recommend taking the points out of dexterity since all it really gives your build is reflex save and a little ac. (A dexterity focused version of the build could also be good; but would take a number of different build decisions). A stat array like this might be ideal:

Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . 34pt. . .Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . 18. . . .18 . . . 4: STR
Dexterity . . . .8. . . .10 . . . 8: STR
Constitution. . 14. . . .14 . . .12: STR
Intelligence. . .8. . . . 8 . . .16: STR
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . . 8
Charisma. . . . 14. . . .16 . . .

(Note: when you TR once you get a 34 point build)

In terms of skills; you want the minimum ranks in balance and perform for the single weapon fighting feats and the bard songs that you want. You'll also want some jump and use magic device. (Since you're investing in CHA, you should be able to get usable UMD numbers by mid levels; 8-12 depending on your gear etc). UMD is very helpful for a ton of reasons; including healing, raising dead, greater heroism (fear immunity and bonuses to skills), teleport scrolls (getting between quests faster), tensor's transformation (more HP and damage and defenses).

Here's an idea for feats for such a build:
Feats

.1. . . . : Power Attack
.1 Human. : Cleave
.3. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
.6. . . . : Great Cleave
.6 Fighter: Improved Shield Bash
.7 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Slashing
.9. . . . : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
.9 Fighter: Shield Mastery
11 Fighter: Improved Critical: Slashing
12. . . . : Weapon Specialization: Slashing
13 Fighter: Greater Single Weapon Fighting
15. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
15 Fighter: Tactical Combatant
17 Fighter: Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing
18. . . . : Tactical Mastery

.5 Cleric : Strength Domain

I tried to prioritize getting cleaves and improved critical as early as possible; prioritizing single weapon fighting over other choices and getting some specialization in by around level 10, while not pushing back weapon specialization too far that it would delay the kensai enhancements. Unfortunately this doesn't give room for dodge feats (they're not needed) and pushes back tactical mastery feats (something has to give).

And then the hard part is enhancements. Of course you want to end up with something like this:

Enhancements (112 of 72 AP) (Errors)

Vanguard (40 AP)

• To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II
  1. Shield Specialization, No Weakness II
  2. Shield Specialization, Brutality III, Stunning Shield III
  3. Shield Specialization, Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark, Strength
  4. Shield Charge III, Strength
  5. Shield to the Face, Disorienting Smash III, Shield Charge III, Armored Strength

Stalwart Defender (24 AP)

• Toughness, Stalwart Defense, Overbalance
  1. Durable Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery I
  2. Resilient Defense II, Armor Expertise III
  3. Tenacious Defense III, Shield Expertise III, Strength
  4. Swift Defense, Strong Defense III

Kensei (23 AP)

• Kensei Focus: Axes, Spiritual Bond, Strike with No Thought, Power Surge
  1. Weapon Group Specialization, Haste Boost III
  2. Tactics II, Weapon Group Specialization
  3. Critical Mastery II, Weapon Group Specialization, Strength
  4. Opportunity Attack

Swashbuckler (21 AP)

• Confidence, Swashbuckling
  1. On Your Toes III, Blow By Blow: Melee III
  2. En Pointe III
  3. Skirmisher, Resonant Arms III, Charisma
  4. Low Blow

Warpriest (4 AP)

• Smite Foe: Melee
  1. Divine Might III

But; obviously you only have 72 AP instead of 112; which means we have to shave off 40 AP somehow! So let's take this down the the basics of what the build wants to achieve:



Enhancements (52 of 72 AP)

Stalwart Defender (14 AP)

• Toughness, Stalwart Defense, Overbalance
  1. Durable Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery II
  2. Resilient Defense III
  3. Tenacious Defense III

Vanguard (12 AP)

• To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I
  1. Shield Specialization, No Weakness II
  2. Shield Specialization, Stunning Shield III

Kensei (11 AP)

• Kensei Focus: Axes, Spiritual Bond, Strike with No Thought
  1. Weapon Group Specialization, Haste Boost III
  2. Weapon Group Specialization, Ascetic Training: Conditioning I

Swashbuckler (11 AP)

• Confidence, Swashbuckling
  1. On Your Toes III, Blow By Blow: Melee II
  2. En Pointe III
  3. Skirmisher

Warpriest (4 AP)

• Smite Foe: Melee
  1. Divine Might III

This is; IMO, the absolute minimum you want to invest in each enhancement tree to get the power-points the build is trying to utilize. Which leaves 20 points to flesh out the other trees to get the stretch goals. Such as getting T5's in a tree. Unfortunately; the two trees in which t5's would be useful are Kensai and Vanguard; and adding +20 points to either barely gives enough points to get a single T5; much less all of them.

So the question comes down to: is there a tree worth dropping from the build to free up points for T5's in another tree? Or is it worth it to just go without T5's. Certainly T5's are very powerful no matter how you split it. Dropping cleric (and divine might) for something like rogue would give +4 AP, enough to take a smattering of T5's at the cost of divine might. (This would be ideal in a dex build that could use evasion effectively). Dropping stalwart defender down to 6 AP loses the 20% HP buff; but keeps the +25 PRR and frees up 6 AP that could go into T5s. Dropping some/all of vanguard could free up T5's for kensai, stunning is great (especially for champions) but is it trying to do too much in a 18 level build?

[unbongwah]

I wasnt sure if stalwart stance worked with evasion or not so i dropped the idea at the time.

Evasion requires light armor or robes; also the only shields you can use are bucklers or small shields. Swashbuckling has a more stringent requirement (bucklers only) so you're fine there.

Defensive stance will work with any armor (or none) but the Greater Defensive stance bonuses require one of the following equipped: <heavy armor | medium armor | shield>. Thankfully, bucklers are shields so S&B Swashbucklers are fine here too.

Unfortunately; the two trees in which t5's would be useful are Kensai and Vanguard; and adding +20 points to either barely gives enough points to get a single T5; much less all of them.

Add 20 APs to Stalwart D. for Block & Cut. Done.

[Coffey]

Thanks for all the clarity Selvera! This will save me a lot time on experimenting with everything.

This is; IMO, the absolute minimum you want to invest in each enhancement tree to get the power-points the build is trying to utilize. Which leaves 20 points to flesh out the other trees to get the stretch goals. Such as getting T5's in a tree. Unfortunately; the two trees in which t5's would be useful are Kensai and Vanguard; and adding +20 points to either barely gives enough points to get a single T5; much less all of them.

I was setting vanguard as the main focus of this build and then adding as much damage and extra defense as possible with what i had left to work with. I would need to look at combat from a different approach then. The tier 5 vanguard gives a little extra damage and 10% secondary shield bash (Total 60%). But the other key part was Disorienting Smash (When you shield bash, damaged enemies gain a stack of Vulnerability which can occur once every [3/2/1] seconds. Vulnerability makes enemies take 1% more damage for 3 seconds. This effect stacks up to 20 times, and loses one stack every 3 seconds.) That 20% damage sounds quite extensive while enemies are stunned as well. And it ties in to stalwart D's 3rd core Overbalance: Your shields gain On Vorpal: Knock an opponent to the ground.

So it really changes my entire outlook for this build and i have to rethink the combat aspect of it then.

So the question comes down to: is there a tree worth dropping from the build to free up points for T5's in another tree? Or is it worth it to just go without T5's. Certainly T5's are very powerful no matter how you split it. Dropping cleric (and divine might) for something like rogue would give +4 AP, enough to take a smattering of T5's at the cost of divine might. (This would be ideal in a dex build that could use evasion effectively). Dropping stalwart defender down to 6 AP loses the 20% HP buff; but keeps the +25 PRR and frees up 6 AP that could go into T5s. Dropping some/all of vanguard could free up T5's for kensai, stunning is great (especially for champions) but is it trying to do too much in a 18 level build?

I thought about abandoning Tier 5s completely too. Rogue 4 for some double strike stacking damage (20%) from killer and evasion which is really good for trap damage and certain types of magic damage not sure which ones yet. It would cost 23 AP for the assassin tree enhancements. Evasion is nice but it isnt full proof though i guess because of its limitations.

Add 20 APs to Stalwart D. for Block & Cut. Done.

Is Block and Cut 10 sec on and 10 sec off after cooldown. Does the cooldown cycle start as soon as the skill is activated in other words?

I also thought of this build. Pretty good defense maybe a little weak on damage adds a lot more double strike though:
11 Kensai 11 Swashbuckler 23 Deepwoods Stalker 35 Stalwart Defender

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 4.37.105
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13 Fighter \ 4 Ranger \ 3 Bard 
Level 20 True Neutral Human

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    23
Dexterity            14                    14
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              8                     8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               4                     9
Jump                  4                    23
Search                2                    12.5
Use Magic Device      (I need this for displacement scrolls etc)                  

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Single Weapon Fighting
Level 2 (Bard)
Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
Level 4 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Level 5 (Ranger)
Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Level 7 (Ranger)
Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Single Weapon Fighting
Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery
Level 10 (Fighter)
Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Level 14 (Fighter)
Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Precision
Level 16 (Fighter)
Level 17 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility
Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Level 19 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Level 20 (Fighter)

Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Confidence (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Swashbuckling (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - On Your Toes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Blow By Blow (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - En Pointe (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Swashbuckler (Brd) - Skirmisher (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Far Shot (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Sneak Attack (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Favored Protection (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Stealthy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Tendon Cut (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Survivalist I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Damage Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Survivalist II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Thrill of the Hunt (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Deepwood Stalker (Rgr) - Killer (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Shield Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Armor Expertise (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Shield Expertise (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Swift Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Strong Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Reinforced Armor (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Reprisal (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Block and Cut (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Spiritual Bond (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strike With No Thought (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 1)

(Only for Enhancement layout will change Feats later)

Double Strike from, Killer stacking 5% to 20% total, Block and Cut 25% 10 secs (20 sec cooldown).

[unbongwah]

If you're planning a build specifically for a heroic life, don't just look at the total AP costs, but think about WHEN you're able to take certain abilities. How long does it take to have enough APs to afford everything you want? What are delaying if you take option A from one tree instead of option B from another one? After all, the original impetus to this build is you didn't want to wait until levels 18-20 for the last two Kensei cores on a pure fighter, but were trying to build a more DPS-front-loaded toon. Something which "started strong and ended strong," as you put it.

In this case: Killer's +20% morale bonus is nice, but it's also 23 APs; that is six levels' worth of APs. What're you sacrificing to be able to afford it?

Also FYI Killer doesn't stack with Block & Cut (both morale bonuses), so it's redundant to have both.

[Coffey]

If you're planning a build specifically for a heroic life, don't just look at the total AP costs, but think about WHEN you're able to take certain abilities. How long does it take to have enough APs to afford everything you want? What are delaying if you take option A from one tree instead of option B from another one? After all, the original impetus to this build is you didn't want to wait until levels 18-20 for the last two Kensei cores on a pure fighter, but were trying to build a more DPS-front-loaded toon. Something which "started strong and ended strong," as you put it.

In this case: Killer's +20% morale bonus is nice, but it's also 23 APs; that is six levels' worth of APs. What're you sacrificing to be able to afford it?

Also FYI Killer doesn't stack with Block & Cut (both morale bonuses), so it's redundant to have both.

See now thats why they pay you so much to do all your great work

Thanks for all your help unbongwah and Selvera

[Coffey]

I took some time to go through this again and give it some more thought.

In terms of cleric domains; I'll agree that with a 2 level splash strength domain is probably the best for a build like this; although I don't consider +2 strength a huge benefit (it's decent/good, but not great); I do consider healing all stat damage to strength every 6 seconds as very useful in some content (which tends to give good xp). In terms of deities; it doesn't matter at all since all deities are supremely useless for a level 2 melee cleric.

Yes i like cleric Strength domain as well. Youre right 2 levels cleric is a lot better.

As you know; I did a handaxe split optimized for level 30 before which I enjoyed, for this build however, I did not start using handaxes until level 10; and there is two reasons for this. The first is that the forgotten axe is min level 10, the second reason is that the fastest you can get the combination of abilities which gives handaxes better damage then any other weapon for the build takes fighter 6/bard 3 = level 9. For this reason, even if you don't have the forgotten axe (it is a little annoying to farm), I recommend using other/better weapons at lower levels, then switch to handaxe once you have the key cores for maximizing handaxes. Personally; I used the tiefling's assassin blade from level 4-9, and there are a lot of reasons why this is a great weapon for those levels; but it's even more annoying to farm then the forgotten axe. If you're not using a tieflings, a vorpal rapier is probably second best for this level range (or just other vorpal swashbuckling weapon).

Now; here's a bit of a trick to the smooth leveling of swashbuckler builds. Dashing scoundrel is actually really powerful at low levels; it grants 10% doublestrike and +6 damage which is significantly better then +10% dodge until you reach mid levels where the stats you get from having an offhand shield, the feats free for the shield feats and the relatively lower increase in damage that +6/+10% grants you makes using a buckler better then empty hand mastery for both damage and defense. For this reason I suggest starting with dashing scoundrel; and at some point (probably around level 8 to 12) respec the swashbuckling tree and switch over to using skirmisher. If you have a Swashbuckler, then bucklers become better then empty hand at a lower level then if you're trying to use any other shield.

This is very valuable information thanks a lot for this. The first time through will be a little bit more time for farming but well worth it.

Enhancements (52 of 72 AP)

Stalwart Defender (14 AP)

• Toughness, Stalwart Defense, Overbalance
  1. Durable Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery II
  2. Resilient Defense III
  3. Tenacious Defense III

Vanguard (12 AP)

• To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I
  1. Shield Specialization, No Weakness II
  2. Shield Specialization, Stunning Shield III

Kensei (11 AP)

• Kensei Focus: Axes, Spiritual Bond, Strike with No Thought
  1. Weapon Group Specialization, Haste Boost III
  2. Weapon Group Specialization, Ascetic Training: Conditioning I

Swashbuckler (11 AP)

• Confidence, Swashbuckling
  1. On Your Toes III, Blow By Blow: Melee II
  2. En Pointe III
  3. Skirmisher

Warpriest (4 AP)

• Smite Foe: Melee
  1. Divine Might III

This is; IMO, the absolute minimum you want to invest in each enhancement tree to get the power-points the build is trying to utilize. Which leaves 20 points to flesh out the other trees to get the stretch goals. Such as getting T5's in a tree. Unfortunately; the two trees in which t5's would be useful are Kensai and Vanguard; and adding +20 points to either barely gives enough points to get a single T5; much less all of them.

So the question comes down to: is there a tree worth dropping from the build to free up points for T5's in another tree? Or is it worth it to just go without T5's. Certainly T5's are very powerful no matter how you split it. Dropping cleric (and divine might) for something like rogue would give +4 AP, enough to take a smattering of T5's at the cost of divine might. (This would be ideal in a dex build that could use evasion effectively). Dropping stalwart defender down to 6 AP loses the 20% HP buff; but keeps the +25 PRR and frees up 6 AP that could go into T5s. Dropping some/all of vanguard could free up T5's for kensai, stunning is great (especially for champions) but is it trying to do too much in a 18 level build?

I will have to take some more time to consider these options.

[Hjarki]

The first thing that immediately comes to mind is that the two best Bucklers (ML 9 and 10) are both Dex-based, not Strength-based. So if you're planning to do a Swashbuckling Vanguard, it really pays to use Dexterity rather than Strength (it's possible to make a Strength-based Buckler do damage based on Dexterity, the reverse is not true). Since you've got plenty of feats for Weapon Finesse, Dexterity just generally makes more sense unless you need some other stat for CC-type abilities.

The next concern I have is CC. You can eventually pile up enough defense with this sort of approach to stand up to some abuse. Early on? You're probably going to get hammered... a lot. Guardbreaking + En Pointe is a neat trick, but you'll burn through your SP far too fast with only 3 levels of Bard. Stunning Shield is single target only with an enormous cooldown. Shield Rush is a T5 ability that doesn't show up until level 12. Overbalance is neat, but you're only going to see one every 30 seconds or so (if that) in heroic levels.

You also get an early boost in durability by playing Elf and using the Dragonmark, although this would probably require picking up Extend as well - which probably pushes the limit on feats even for a Fighter-centric build.

In terms of Frenzied Berserker, I think this might be an optimization trap where you blind yourself to everything else to make one particular stat as good as it can be. I don't think the benefits of Barbarian/Swashbuckler really pay off until epic levels, so my inclination would be to just stick with fighter.

[Coffey]

Some good points Hjarki.

The first thing that immediately comes to mind is that the two best Bucklers (ML 9 and 10) are both Dex-based, not Strength-based. So if you're planning to do a Swashbuckling Vanguard, it really pays to use Dexterity rather than Strength (it's possible to make a Strength-based Buckler do damage based on Dexterity, the reverse is not true). Since you've got plenty of feats for Weapon Finesse, Dexterity just generally makes more sense unless you need some other stat for CC-type abilities.

All i can say is whats the third best buckler in the game haha? Anyways it looks like i am moving away from VG at this point anyways so not a concern really anymore.

You also get an early boost in durability by playing Elf and using the Dragonmark, although this would probably require picking up Extend as well - which probably pushes the limit on feats even for a Fighter-centric build.

I thought about Elf for displacement but i will be adding UMD to the build so i can use displacement scrolls but you need caster lvl 5 and 28 UMD it says so idk about this time around (no cool tattoo either) Im not sure if i should add 3 more lvls of cleric because it will move all the power points of the build back further even though the extra defense would be welcomed.

In terms of Frenzied Berserker, I think this might be an optimization trap where you blind yourself to everything else to make one particular stat as good as it can be. I don't think the benefits of Barbarian/Swashbuckler really pay off until epic levels, so my inclination would be to just stick with fighter.

I concluded that empty tree FB was only good if you were going on to epic right from the start. Never liked Barbarian, at least the way they made the enhancement trees for it anyways. I am still thinking about going full circle back to fighter or paladin again it would be a hell of a lot easier than running into walls at every turn where i am now haha! Its good fun though. If it works it works but i may have to wait a few HTRs try it might be better that way. It has to be a viable build to play after all. And at the moment im not sure how i would play this without CC because i will spend most of the time solo leveling.

I believe pulling AP from vanguard completely is the way to go here. It seems to be empty of all that was good about it now. So that will free up 12 AP to go with the 20 AP left over to work with.

[Coffey]

I was looking at making an option to wear heavy armor and add Khopesh that i can use until i find a better axe.

Add exotic weapon khopesh to the feats and remove it later after i have farmed some better equipment.

Full Kensai drop VG altogether.

Kensai 34 AP
Swashbuckler 11 AP
Warpriest 4 AP
Stalwart Defender 23

So apparently swashbuckling stance has to be activated with dashing scoundrel or skirmisher.

[Coffey]

I spoke to a friend of mine and they said the build 1st life should be fine just dont try harder content until you have better light armor/equipment to work with.

And a regular handaxe is still as good or better than anything while in swashbucking stance with dashing scoundrel early on.

Thanks for the help everyone im on my way now