Frenzied Swashbuckler???

[ifumoveudie]

So I have been running a pure Bard swash for a while now, and while the toon has been a lot of fun, I was wondering, what if I added Barbarian for more Str, added Melee Power, and Cleric to cast while raged. I think running frenzied to tier 5, adding tier 4 swash, and just enough into Cleric to gain the ability to cast while raged, would be pretty fun. Anybody have any ideas on why this is a bad idea?

[Hjarki]

So I have been running a pure Bard swash for a while now, and while the toon has been a lot of fun, I was wondering, what if I added Barbarian for more Str, added Melee Power, and Cleric to cast while raged. I think running frenzied to tier 5, adding tier 4 swash, and just enough into Cleric to gain the ability to cast while raged, would be pretty fun. Anybody have any ideas on why this is a bad idea?

Casting while Raged only means casting Cleric spells while Raged.

However, you may not want to use Rage at all in such a build. One of the main reasons to use Swashbuckler is to permit the use of a buckler while SWF and the top tier bucklers right now are Dex-based rather than Strength-based. If you want to use any of your Bard abilities, you probably want to focus on Charisma rather than Strength. There are also a variety of stat-to-damage/tactics abilities like Know the Angle and Divine Presence that are generally more advantageous if you use a non-Strength stat for your melee.

[cru121]

I am running a Bard 3 / Barbarian 17.
Well right now I am only level 12 or 13, using Forgotten Axe 14-20 x 5.

The idea behind 17 barbarian is to leverage much of the new planned barbarian damage absorption. Unfortunately, the change previewed on Lamannia is not live so far.

I was thinking about adding evasion and traps, but that would require adding some INT for skills and possibly DEX for evasion or free a feat. I was lazy and just went with STR/CON.

[unbongwah]

I am running a Bard 3 / Barbarian 17.

I was also thinking of barb 12 / cleric 5 / bard 3 (STR domain): you lose two ticks of damage reduction and Tireless Rage; but gain Divine Might and use STR for Reflex saves.

[Hjarki]

I was also thinking of barb 12 / cleric 5 / bard 3 (STR domain): you lose two ticks of damage reduction and Tireless Rage; but gain Divine Might and use STR for Reflex saves.

Tireless Rage can easily be replaced with High Spirits.

That being said, I think Str + Rage isn't a particularly effective mechanic for Barbarians right now. Contrast a traditional Rage-based Barbarian with 110 Strength vs. a Harper-based Barbarian with 90 Intelligence. The Rage version has +75 damage/+50 tactics. The Int version has +80 damage/+60 tactics. And the Int-based version doesn't have to put up the nuisances of Rage.

So my inclination would be more like 12/7/1 (non-Raging) Barbarian/Bard/FvS, giving Divine Presence, Displacement and Frozen Fury alongside all the chunky Barbarian goodness.

[unbongwah]

That being said, I think Str + Rage isn't a particularly effective mechanic for Barbarians right now. Contrast a traditional Rage-based Barbarian with 110 Strength vs. a Harper-based Barbarian with 90 Intelligence. The Rage version has +75 damage/+50 tactics. The Int version has +80 damage/+60 tactics. And the Int-based version doesn't have to put up the nuisances of Rage.

The pure barb can take Know the Angles as well; the changes to favor Focused Wrath over Crit Rage means you have the APs to spare. So with INT as your secondary stat you could probably have, what, at least 70 INT? So much power creep these days it's hard for me to remember how ridiculous stats can get. Which means a hypothetical STR 110 INT 70 pure barb has +90 dmg / +65 DCs. Clearly stronger than the pure INT version.

EDIT: oops I fail at math - fixed values.

[Hjarki]

The pure barb can take Know the Angles as well; the changes to favor Focused Wrath over Crit Rage means you have the APs to spare. So with INT as your secondary stat you could probably have, what, at least 70 INT? So much power creep these days it's hard for me to remember how ridiculous stats can get. Which means a hypothetical STR 110 INT 70 pure barb has +105 dmg / +80 DCs. Clearly a lot stronger than the pure INT version.

Know the Angles adds half your bonus (+15 in this case), so it's actually +90 / +65. So it's more 'slightly stronger' - and to the point where we'd really need to break down gearing/enhancements/etc. to determine what the gap is. I do know that it's a hell of a lot easier to pile everything into one stat than to get both an exceptional Strength and an exceptional Int.

There are also wider options for Int than Strength. Either one can be used for Dire Charge. But Int can also be used for Energy Burst or Burst of Glacial Wrath. Or you could go with Wisdom and have a Barbarian tossing around Mass Frog and Everything is Nothing (ok, that last is a bit silly, but you get the point). In the particular case we're talking about, going with Charisma and Frozen Fury is a better use of tactics than anything Barbarian brings to the table.

I think Druid is a decent comparison here. The Rage sequence in Druid delivers real benefits above and beyond a minor boost to Strength/Charisma and the class itself has a host of Strength-based tactical maneuvers to back it up. Even there, the existence of non-Strength spells likely makes Wisdom the better choice in many cases - the Bear Druid who can also effectively Earthquake is probably more valuable than the Bear Druid who can only Tremor.

[FuzzyDuck81]

I've been considering something like this too, my current thoughts are 6 barb/4 bard/10 fighter with tier5 in frenzied berserker to get the crit multiplier, then swashbuckling with a handaxe for the maximum combination of threat & multiplier benefits, at 28+ using the forgotten handaxe since hey, tasty extra threat built-in The fighter levels are mainly for the extra bonus feats to boost tactics DCs as well as allowing space to take quicken & empower healing for cocoon. I'm going to get the stalwart defender stance to boost PRR & MRR, but am still debating the exact AP split for swashbuckler/vanguard, as I really like having missile shield for the defensive benefits but it looks like a toss-up between that & low blow; it'll probably come down to whether I want to have extra attack buttons to faff around with or just passive stuff.

[unbongwah]

The fighter levels are mainly for the extra bonus feats to boost tactics DCs as well as allowing space to take quicken & empower healing for cocoon.

If that's your goal, might as well do ftr 12 / barb 5 / bard 3 to grab Tactical Mastery (+6 to DCs). It also opens up the possibility of Power Surge, although APs are pretty tight; maybe 32 FB (Focused Wrath) / 21 Kensei (Power Surge) / 11 SB (Skirmisher) / 8 Harper (KtA) / 6 SD (defensive stance)? The forthcoming HP buff to epic toons is about to render Tenacious Defense pointless in epics so hey that frees a bunch more APs.

[Enoach]

This is just my opinion but I prefer precision over power attack with swashbuckling, and precision cannot be used while raging. And I always feel like I'm losing something if I don't use all abilities.

I personally enjoyed the War Chanter Bard/Barbarian mix. It has synergy with the rages and works well with any of the barbarian trees. That and you can sing even while raged.

[unbongwah]

This is just my opinion but I prefer precision over power attack with swashbuckling, and precision cannot be used while raging.

While the OP's original idea is a Raging bard / barb, the tier-5 barb crit bonuses no longer require Rage be active to function. So in the case of the ftr 12 / barb 5 / bard 3 idea I posted, you have to take a bunch of filler to reach tier-5 FB, but it's entirely possible to have a non-Raging barb MC like this. I.e. you could use Precision instead of PA if you prefer. Whether it's the optimal choice is another matter...

[Enoach]

While the OP's original idea is a Raging bard / barb, the tier-5 barb crit bonuses no longer require Rage be active to function. So in the case of the ftr 12 / barb 5 / bard 3 idea I posted, you have to take a bunch of filler to reach tier-5 FB, but it's entirely possible to have a non-Raging barb MC like this. I.e. you could use Precision instead of PA if you prefer. Whether it's the optimal choice is another matter...

Yes, I get that, but my other opinion point of "And I always feel like I'm losing something if I don't use all abilities." still applies but this is my issue and not necessarily the issue of the build.


I'm one of those crazy players that uses all the abilities of a build. Was happy when DDO finally implemented shields as more then a pretty decoration in the off hand etc. It might be because I'm mixed dominant (can use both hands but not necessarily for the same thing) and I don't like the feeling of having an ability I won't/can't use.

[Hjarki]

Yes, I get that, but my other opinion point of "And I always feel like I'm losing something if I don't use all abilities." still applies but this is my issue and not necessarily the issue of the build.

I've been looking at various old build concepts and the notion of Raging Swashbuckler came back to mind, like so:

Bardbarian
12/5/3 Barbarian/Cleric/Bard
True Neutral Half-Orc


Level Order

1. Bard. . . . . . 6. Barbarian . . .11. Barbarian . . .16. Cleric
2. Barbarian. . . .7. Barbarian. . . 12. Cleric. . . . .17. Barbarian
3. Bard. . . . . . 8. Barbarian . . .13. Barbarian . . .18. Cleric
4. Barbarian. . . .9. Barbarian. . . 14. Cleric. . . . .19. Barbarian
5. Bard. . . . . .10. Barbarian . . .15. Barbarian . . .20. Cleric


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . 20. . . .+8. . . .4: STR
Dexterity . . . .8. . . .+8. . . .8: STR
Constitution. . 14. . . .+8. . . 12: STR
Intelligence. . 12. . . .+8. . . 16: STR
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+8. . . 20: STR
Charisma. . . . 13. . . .+8. . . 24: STR
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: STR

Skills
. . . . .Bd Bn Bd Bn Bd Bn Bn Bn Bn Bn Bn Cl Bn Cl Bn Cl Bn Cl Bn Cl
. . . . . 1 .2 .3. 4. 5 .6 .7 .8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Perform . 4 . . 2 . . 2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. . .2 . . 2. . .2 .1. 23
Heal. . . 2 .½ . . 1. . .1 .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .5. . .5. . .2. . .2. . .2. 23
UMD . . . 4 . . 2 . . 2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . . 1½ . .2 . . 2. ½ .2 .1. 23
Diplo . . 4 . . 2 . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4. . .3. . . . 15
Tumble. . 4 . . . .½ .1. . .1 .1 .1 .1 .½ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
Intim . . . .4 . . 3. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7
Balance . 4 . . 2 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7
Jump. . . 4 .1 . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .28 .6 .8. 6. 8 .6 .7 .7 .7 .7 .7 .5. 7. 5 .8 .6. 8. 6 .8 .6


Feats

.1. . . . : Single Weapon Fighting
.3. . . . : Improved Shield Bash
.6. . . . : Shield Mastery
.9. . . . : Improved Single Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
15. . . . : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
18. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Stunning Blow
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Power Attack
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic . : Completionist
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea

14 Cleric : Strength Domain

12 Deity. : Follower of: Sovereign Host


Spells

Cleric
Cure Light Wounds (12), Nightshield (12), Divine Favor (12), Shield of Faith (14), Obscuring Mist (18)
Cure Moderate Wounds (16), Resist Energy (16), Close Wounds (16), Lesser Restoration (18)
Cure Serious Wounds (20), Water Breathing (20), Remove Curse (20)
Bard
Focusing Chant (1), Feather Fall (3), Detect Secret Doors (5)

Enhancements (80+1 AP)

Frenzied Berserker (35 AP)
Die Hard, Frenzied Toughness, Frenzy, Frenzied Toughness II
Extra Rage III, Cracking Attack III, Power Rage II
Body Blow III, Blood Tribute III, Extra Action Boost III
Blood Trail III, Supreme Cleave III
Crazy Strike III
Focused Wrath II, Raging Blows
Half-Orc (18 AP)
Orcish Fury, Orcish Strength, Orcish Fury II, Orcish Strength II, Orcish Fury III
(none)
Extra Action Boost III, Orcish Rage
(none)
Power Rage III
Warchanter (13 AP)
Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training
Enchant Weapon, Rough and Ready III
Sprint Boost III
High Spirits III
Swashbuckler (11 AP)
Confidence, Swashbuckling
On Your Toes II, Tavern Shanties III
En Pointe III
Skirmisher
Warpriest (4 AP)
Smite Foe: Melee
Divine Might III

Destiny (24 AP)

Fury of the Wild
Primal Scream III, Fast Healing I, Strength
Acute Instincts III, Damage Reduction III, Strength
(none)
Sense Weakness III, Overwhelming Force III
Fury Eternal
Unbridled Fury
Twists of Fate (27 fate points)
Critical Damage (Tier 3 Dreadnought)
Confront Any Foe (Tier 2 Crusader)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
Legendary Tactics (Tier 1 Dreadnought)
Extra Action Boost (Tier 1 Dreadnought)

Brutality doesn't seem practical for a 0 racial AP build. However, beyond that, it's about as purely a 'Hulk smash' Barbarian build as it gets. I didn't put a significant amount of thought into the spells because if you're not casting them at the beginning of the dungeon, you're probably not casting them. With hand axe, you should have a tremendous critical range (15-20/x5) backed up by an extended Vorpal range to refresh Adrenaline.

[count_spicoli]

Why not skip barb and go 12 bard 6 ftr 2 rogue. You will only lose 1 crit multi (will have strike with no thought for 11 ap in kenai instead of tier 5 x2 crit fro. Frenzy) but if you climb the warchanter tree and get spinning ice you will get +50% dmg on everything around you. You will still get x1 crit on 19-20. I used Harper tree and built for int while still keeping cha high as possible. Because all your freezing is based on cha plus bard lvls + tactics you really dont need to invest mainly in cha. Insight reflexes and rogue lvls for nice reflex save and good trapping skills.

[Hjarki]

Why not skip barb and go 12 bard 6 ftr 2 rogue. You will only lose 1 crit multi (will have strike with no thought for 11 ap in kenai instead of tier 5 x2 crit fro. Frenzy) but if you climb the warchanter tree and get spinning ice you will get +50% dmg on everything around you. You will still get x1 crit on 19-20. I used Harper tree and built for int while still keeping cha high as possible. Because all your freezing is based on cha plus bard lvls + tactics you really dont need to invest mainly in cha. Insight reflexes and rogue lvls for nice reflex save and good trapping skills.

Spinning Ice has a cooldown much longer than it's duration and it requires a heavy investment in Charisma. In any case, Overwhelming Force renders opponents helpless so Frozen Fury/Spinning Ice aren't really needed.

The "only +1 crit multi" is also a big deal considering how much you auto-crit (En Pointe, Adrenaline).

[Noobie]

I was also thinking of barb 12 / cleric 5 / bard 3 (STR domain): you lose two ticks of damage reduction and Tireless Rage; but gain Divine Might and use STR for Reflex saves.

was wondering how good this kind of build would be today, and is it still worth using str to damage with the changes to divine might?

[unbongwah]

was wondering how good this kind of build would be today, and is it still worth using str to damage with the changes to divine might?

Interesting question. Swashbucklers are stuck with light armor, so having good Reflex saves is particularly important to make up for the MRR cap IMO. Low Reflex saves + low MRR = OUCH

The big incentive for cleric 5 was using STR instead of DEX for Reflex saves, with STR obviously being boosted by Divine Might. Changing DM to be a Battle Trance like Know the Angles etc. means you're not getting that big STR boost anymore. You're still getting a STR boost from Strength domain + barbarian Rage, but you're definitely looking at lower overall STR than you had pre-U45.

So I dunno. This was always something of a niche build concept. Bard 3 / barb 5 is really all you need to get Swashbuckling + Focused Wrath's crit bonuses. And you don't even need to Rage anymore for Focused Wrath, so you can run with Precision instead of Power Attack.

[Noobie]

Interesting question. Swashbucklers are stuck with light armor, so having good Reflex saves is particularly important to make up for the MRR cap IMO. Low Reflex saves + low MRR = OUCH

The big incentive for cleric 5 was using STR instead of DEX for Reflex saves, with STR obviously being boosted by Divine Might. Changing DM to be a Battle Trance like Know the Angles etc. means you're not getting that big STR boost anymore. You're still getting a STR boost from Strength domain + barbarian Rage, but you're definitely looking at lower overall STR than you had pre-U45.

So I dunno. This was always something of a niche build concept. Bard 3 / barb 5 is really all you need to get Swashbuckling + Focused Wrath's crit bonuses. And you don't even need to Rage anymore for Focused Wrath, so you can run with Precision instead of Power Attack.

I see, that's very interesting. I really like the idea of swashbuckling + focused wrath with handaxes. Do you have any ideas on how I should spend the rest of my levels and enhanchments in this kind of build? Any other good ways to get defenses? Mostly looking at heroics with maybe a little epics

[Blacksoft]

I see, that's very interesting. I really like the idea of swashbuckling + focused wrath with handaxes. Do you have any ideas on how I should spend the rest of my levels and enhanchments in this kind of build? Any other good ways to get defenses? Mostly looking at heroics with maybe a little epics

I think 12 cleric animal domain is likely best. 12 Wizard EK is interesting (11 AP in PM) is something I was considering as well. Lots of options and probably one of best ways to get your class past life.

[magaiti]

12 alchemist 5 barb 3 bard

Certainly not the optimal way to go through for racial, but a fun idea if you want to try out something crazy.

You can have INT as main stat, use KtA, have Evasion and good Reflex (Insightful Reflexes), all in one.
21 AP in Vile Chemist gives you 4d8 poison on hit (scales with negative/poison sp), and full BAB.
That said, Batallion Brew only works on Simple Weapons, so you will have to use:
- either a simple finessable weapon (none of which, afaik, have x3 or better crit multi in end-game),
- or a handaxe (which is not a simple weapon, so you lose to-hit/to-damage line in VC and have to spend 2 AP in SB for INT to damage, and INT to hit in HA T1)


Sickles work best for simple weapons, as they also benefit from Swords to Plowshares feat.
There isn't any particularly good sickles tho. The Legendary Hook and Null look best, but still pretty meh.

Orb will allow for 5% doublestrike in VC, and the new feat Offhand Versatility (though I'm uncertain of it's usefulness)
Buckler will allow to take Shield Mastery/ISM and twist in ESM from Sentinel, for 15% doublestrike and some PRR

AP for Simple Weapon + Orb/Buckler: 33 FB, 23 VC, 11 SB, 8 HA - 75 AP total
AP for Handaxe + Orb/Buckler: 33 FB, 21 VC, 13 SB, 8 HA - 75 AP total

AP for Handaxe/Simple Weapon + empty Offhand (Dashing Scoundrel): 33 FB, 21/23 VC, 13/11 SB , 8 HA - 75 total
AP for Simple Weapon + empty Offhand: 33 FB, 23 VC, 6 SB, 7-8 HA, 11 Vistani - 80-81 total // probably not worth it, since Dashing Scoundrel bonuses just look better

Destiny probably Fury so you can exploit your PSWF 19-20 Vorpal