Poll: Versions Of BlackRazor

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Here's the currently approved version in which I'm sure your Kobold gem will enjoy eating.....

Echo of Blackrazor Great Sword
Minimum Level: 29
Damage Dice: [2d6+4] (because of Keen)
Critical Profile: 17-20/x2 (because of Keen)

• Stealer of Souls Blackrazor hungers for the Souls of those you have defeated. On a Vorpal hit with this weapon, Blackrazor will absorb some of its Soul, draining one level from the target. When you strike the killing blow on an enemy, Blackrazor retains one Defeated Soul, up to a maximum of 20. Each Defeated Soul grants you +1 Profane bonus to Melee Power and +1 Profane bonus to Damage. If you block or unequip Blackrazor, the Defeated Souls will be released. Defeated Souls last for 30 seconds.
• Keen V
• Entropic 9d6
• Psychic Ward This item wards you against mind-altering effects and spells, such as Charm and Domination.
• Orange Augment Slot
• Red Augment Slot

Bastard Swords are Hand and a Half swords, swords that are often used two handed as well as single handed so the artwork with Blackrazor being used with two hands makes sense, also it was described vaguely as simply a sword, and the interpretation was left to the dm as to what kind of sword. This version of BlackRazor I designed below is a version that belongs in raid loot.... you know, like BlackRazor should be as it is simply too iconic to be a simply random quest loot drop. For the damage dice, I am using the listed damage dice for Divinity, The Morninglord's Goal as it is currently the only named level 29 Bastard sword in the game while there are currently Just as many Greatswords, so really this should be released WITH a bastard sword variation thus keeping to the trend of having a Bastard sword version and a greatsword version of certain weapons.

Echo of Blackrazor Bastard Sword
Minimum Level: 29
Damage Dice: 5[1d10+3]
Critical Profile: 18-20/x2

• BlackRazor's Hunger: On vorpal hit you drain 1d6 levels from the enemy hit and gain plus 1 Melee power and plus 1% increased speed bonus to attack and running (stacks with all other sources of attack speed and running speed), this can retain a stable stack of up to 30 charges and upon reaching 31 charges it is dispersed and you are healed by 1d2 per character level, and benefit from the effects of the Lesser Restoration spell.
• Improved Cursespewing
• Nightmares
• Psychic Ward This item wards you against mind-altering effects and spells, such as Charm and Domination.
• Orange Augment Slot
• Red Augment Slot

[Renvar]

Because raid loot has to be better than non-raid loot, Black Razor should come from a raid. That way it can be the iconic, Best in Slot weapon that it should be.

Regardless of the weapon type, so long as it comes from a 6 man quest, it's not going to be better than Divinity or Sanctity. Since they can't suddenly stick a raid in U39, your best bet would probably be to push for it to be a long sword. Since they have't released a named long sword since July, 2015. (Fellblade in U27). With no legendary named raid items to compete with, maybe it can get a bit more freedom.

[Rykka]

Where's the Donut vote?

[Paladin_of_Power]

Donut vote.

I put together several other versions on the original thread most part overpowered some are compromises and are pretty darn good .

Overall people want this to be a great sword which is what it generally has been most of its life I know when I was playing The original module in the 1980s I for one never considered it a bastard sword

[cru121]

I think this thread needs bit more information about Vampirism.

[edrein]

Donut vote.

I put together several other versions on the original thread most part overpowered some are compromises and are pretty darn good .

Overall people want this to be a great sword which is what it generally has been most of its life I know when I was playing The original module in the 1980s I for one never considered it a bastard sword

I'd vote for your negative energy burst on block version any day. It was perfect in encapsulating the actual lore, comparative stats between Tabletop and DDO for adaption, and actual ingame usefulness.

But like the others, donut vote for me. This poll feels a bit skewed as there literally is no option that says, "None of the above." Pretty sure the 3 votes saying folks like it as is are from people not liking Lokeal's suggestions.

[Arkat]

I think this thread needs bit more information about Vampirism.

Needs more mayonnaise, too!




BTW...Blackrazor needs to be a Greatsword and it just needs to be done "right."

[clagor]

I would vote for a Long Sword version of the Blackrazor.
Since Fellblade there was no named Long Sword anymore!
And this should be one of the most common weapons anyway...

[Valerianus]

no

[Hobgoblin]

no

[Annex]

Stormbringer, the inspiration for Blackrazor, is a Great, Two-handed Runesword. However, if I recall correctly, Elric regularly wields him with both one and two hands. In my opinion, this is a case where standard Dungeons & Dragons rules fail to compass an item from literature.

If I included Blackrazor in a campaign, I would make it a Bastard Sword the size of a Great Sword with the damage profile of a Great Sword, then I would amp up the damage profile further to reflect to horrendous wickedness of the weapon. In this respect, I would treat it something like Queen Celestia--a weapon the size of a Bastard Sword that handles like a Short Sword because it is really a Light Saber.

Edit: Having thought about this some more while running The Chronoscope (second Master's Gift made; Yay me), the developers made the right decision making Blackrazor a Great Sword. While Elric sometimes wielded Stormbringer with one hand, I cannot recall him ever using any sort of two handed fighting style. If Blackrazor were a Bastard Sword, everyone would wield him with an off-hand weapon or shield and that is all wrong. Given Dungeons & Dragons rules, Great Sword is the only way to go for one of the horrific Black Runeswords.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

I'd vote for your negative energy burst on block version any day. It was perfect in encapsulating the actual lore, comparative stats between Tabletop and DDO for adaption, and actual ingame usefulness.

But like the others, donut vote for me. This poll feels a bit skewed as there literally is no option that says, "None of the above." Pretty sure the 3 votes saying folks like it as is are from people not liking Lokeal's suggestions.

Yeah, it adds up, not too long ago it was a tie between two of those, must have upset the trolls....

[edrein]

Yeah, it adds up, not too long ago it was a tie between two of those, must have upset the trolls....

Trolls aside the skewed data of the poll would come up with incorrect results.

There was no option that stated none of the above or for the item to remain a greatsword and be properly reworked. It's fair to say that many people don't like your suggestions when it comes to item effects; as they often are in the more... Polarizing levels of power scaling or at the very least, provide strange results.

For instance; Cursepewing doesn't fit the source material, neither does nightmares really. And everyone knows how useless nightmares is in epic content, let alone legendary, and reaper even when considering the Improved Cursespewing for bebuffs and negative levels. The stacking speed while a neat idea would never fly; as the devs don't like to give attack stacking attack speed bonuses. And in the face of wolves.... That's an extra 80% move speed that no one else can match/achieve, and the attack speed would be lag inducing on the combat log. 31 vorpals to get a lackluster heal also is laughable by most people's standards. I get you don't probably run EEs all that often, and especially not the higher skull reapers but you have to look at universal appeal.

The original Blackrazor from tabletop has temp HP. That temp HP will always trump any form of self healing as it scales across all difficulty spectrums. A weaker non-scaling version of the War Priest's Ameliorating Strike is a bad plan. Atleast with Paladin_of_Power's negative energy burst idea; the weapon had alternative DPS uses for the soul charges that are frankly still a problem in both your version and the devs. On-kill abilities are never going to be useful for melees when the game promotes casters instakilling trash left and right.

Edit: And I get you love Bastard Swords. But please stop trying to make it happen on Blackrazor. In tabletop the weapon has traditionally been a Longsword when it wasn't a Greatsword, and almost every edition beyond the first stated it to be a Greatsword. Otherwise you frankly need to make a campaign that gives us the option to loot Blackrazor as any type of sword: Greatsword, Bastard Sword, Longsword, Short Sword, Scimitar, Falchion, Khopesh, and might as well throw daggers in there as well.

[noinfo]

No to the Bastard sword.

The great sword is junk and I have little hope for the weapon except as a cosmetic for a the maul or falchion.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Trolls aside the skewed data of the poll would come up with incorrect results.

There was no option that stated none of the above or for the item to remain a greatsword and be properly reworked. It's fair to say that many people don't like your suggestions when it comes to item effects; as they often are in the more... Polarizing levels of power scaling or at the very least, provide strange results.

For instance; Cursepewing doesn't fit the source material, neither does nightmares really. And everyone knows how useless nightmares is in epic content, let alone legendary, and reaper even when considering the Improved Cursespewing for bebuffs and negative levels. The stacking speed while a neat idea would never fly; as the devs don't like to give attack stacking attack speed bonuses. And in the face of wolves.... That's an extra 80% move speed that no one else can match/achieve, and the attack speed would be lag inducing on the combat log. 31 vorpals to get a lackluster heal also is laughable by most people's standards. I get you don't probably run EEs all that often, and especially not the higher skull reapers but you have to look at universal appeal.

The original Blackrazor from tabletop has temp HP. That temp HP will always trump any form of self healing as it scales across all difficulty spectrums. A weaker non-scaling version of the War Priest's Ameliorating Strike is a bad plan. Atleast with Paladin_of_Power's negative energy burst idea; the weapon had alternative DPS uses for the soul charges that are frankly still a problem in both your version and the devs. On-kill abilities are never going to be useful for melees when the game promotes casters instakilling trash left and right.

Edit: And I get you love Bastard Swords. But please stop trying to make it happen on Blackrazor. In tabletop the weapon has traditionally been a Longsword when it wasn't a Greatsword, and almost every edition beyond the first stated it to be a Greatsword. Otherwise you frankly need to make a campaign that gives us the option to loot Blackrazor as any type of sword: Greatsword, Bastard Sword, Longsword, Short Sword, Scimitar, Falchion, Khopesh, and might as well throw daggers in there as well.

Actually that portion is copied word for word from the ameliorating strikes description.......... meaning it is the same, not weaker at all, you've got to know how to enhance auto-healing procs to see their value and one thing I am learning is that a lot of people don't know how to enhance such procs and so they tend to get a bit hateful towards any value placed on such.

Yeah, the movement speed would be a problem...... but the movement speed aspect is part of the lore, so what could be suggested alternatively?

The cursespewing aspect is only there to improve the nightmares effect, applying a curse to an enemy has proven to improve their chances of being made more vulnerable to the phantasmal killer effect of Nightmare The Fallen Moon even though marginally, I have witnessed a proc increase. I admit that this proc increase does not show up in reaper, so perhaps an improved nightmare would be in order.

I do believe that Blackrazor should drop as any weapon type people ever experienced it being in pen and paper D&D......... In that case it should drop in long sword, great sword and bastard sword variations.

"Blackrazor has a +3 enhancement bonus, and when wielded grants regeneration and immunity to Charm and Fear effects. It has a chance with each hit to drain the target's life force (levels) and convert it into healing energy and a temporary boost of speed and strength for the wielder."

"The sword Blackrazor was also part of the adventure White Plume Mountain. The sword was an intelligent and evil blade that encouraged its wielder to kill indiscriminately, eagerly devouring the souls of those it slew."

"Blackrazor, also known as the Sword of Souls, is a greatsword that appears to be forged from an unknown alloy of steel. It is sheathed in a black scabbard decorated with pieces of cut obsidian. When held, it shines like the night sky filled with stars. The wielder of the sword hears faint whispers whenever it delivers the killing stroke to a living creature. The sword has a sentient being of another plane of existence forced into it. This creature was once a powerful undead creature similar to an atropal."

Through this one could indeed rightfully say that the weapon should not have nightmares on it but Slay The Living and/or vorpal at best but only due to the sword's eagerness to have a kill made in the first place combined with the nature of the being that is bound to the sword ("similar to an Atropal")..... either way a really good interpretation of this effect, is going to take some creativity and multiple minds are simply better than one. The faint whispers made upon dealing a killing blow could very well be the verbal incantation related to the Slay The Living spell.

[Annex]

Lokeal, have you ever read Michael Moorcock's Elric stories? They serve as one of the fundamental works of literature inspiring the original Dungeons & Dragons. Everything about Blackrazor is derived from and inspired by Stormbringer, the sword of Elric as described in those books. Given your keen interest in vampirism I think you would rather enjoy them.

[edrein]

Actually that portion is copied word for word from the ameliorating strikes description.......... meaning it is the same, not weaker at all, you've got to know how to enhance auto-healing procs to see their value and one thing I am learning is that a lot of people don't know how to enhance such procs and so they tend to get a bit hateful towards any value placed on such.

Yeah, the movement speed would be a problem...... but the movement speed aspect is part of the lore, so what could be suggested alternatively?

The cursespewing aspect is only there to improve the nightmares effect, applying a curse to an enemy has proven to improve their chances of being made more vulnerable to the phantasmal killer effect of Nightmare The Fallen Moon even though marginally, I have witnessed a proc increase. I admit that this proc increase does not show up in reaper, so perhaps an improved nightmare would be in order.

I know that it is a word for word copy. However, you lacked the spell power increase that the actual Ameliorating Strike has; hence me stating it is a weaker version. Ameliorating Strike is/was a good ability due to the fact it scaled with spellpower and heal amp, and previously could proc off offhand strikes and doublestrikes... Shame the devs unnecessarily nerfed it just to make it 'viable for all combat styles'.

Your assumption is wrong. People know how to build for Vampirism, Regeneration, etc. The issue is there is no amount of heal amp in the game that can make those effects actually viable. I know you pine about how good they are, and I'm glad you enjoy them. The rest of us are going to continue looking at you like you're insane over the fact. The scaling just doesn't work in higher epics and it certainly doesn't work in reaper. Now if they removed the reaper penalty from any form of Regen (Itemization, Fast Healing, etc.) then maybe these builds could see more use or just bumped the healing rate/numbers it'd work out.

There is no correct answer for the speed option. It's sort of a flavor effect that could/should be dropped in favor of more 'useful' effects. The biggest problem here is how Haste as a spell is no longer relevant due to Speed items and the Blinding Haste feat. Both of these make any form of 'haste' one the weapon redundant unless you make it stacking, and if it's stacking the devs aren't going to give more than 5%. Which makes it a huge diminishing return for what would be 1 out of 4 item effect slots.

As much as you love Vampirism it's an actual oddity to say your lack of suggesting it on the weapon that screams Vampirism from a ten mile radius. However, my disagreement with Vampirism comes ironically from the same place as your suggestions. I'm not a fan of the current iteration that has 'higher' healing but a long cooldown. I've made peace with no chances of seeing the old cooldownless version, but I'm still not in agreement that 4d2 is actually endgame appropriate. Even with high amp in non-reaper I see a Nightmother's weapon proccing me for about 30-40. Reaper it often reduces to about 16-20, and that's only in the R1-2 range. There's a need for a healthy balance to be struck here, but it's one that again requires more Reaper-based tweaking than just the base effect itself.

As far as making the weapon more appropriate; like I said Paladin_Of_Power made great adaptive versions and one slightly more creative version with a negative energy burst on blocking that I loved and retweaked a bit myself. For the Temp HP solution my suggestion was the following:

On Blackrazor side of things. Would it be possible for you to just drop Keen and innately change either base crit range/multiplier and/or base damage?

Instead I'd love to see a new version/edit of Bodyfeeder.

Blackrazor's Boon: On an attack roll of a natural 20 which is also confirmed as a critical hit, you gain 10 Temporary HP per 10 mob CR levels. These last for 30 seconds.
As a heroic ability; this stays within the general power range of the current bodyfeeder, but allows scaling for use into low epics if the player chooses to.

Blackrazor's Gift: On an attack roll of a natural 20 which is also confirmed as a critical hit, you gain 100 Temporary HP per 10 mob CR levels. These last for 30 seconds.
As a legendary ability; this just plain scales with the damage of mobs at endgame.

Here is Paladin_of_Power's version:

Or this flavor, where all the damage type is Negative and Cold, added extra Neg and Cold damage on Crit, added a Negative Energy Burst AoE when blocking that also releases your Defeated Souls and bumped the Defeated Soul buff down a notch. Changed Entropic to Negative and Cold. Removed Bodyfeeder, True Seeing, Haste clicky.

The following items are Minimum Level: 9/29

Echo of Blackrazor Great Sword
Minimum Level: 9/29
Damage Dice: 1.5[2d6]+4/5.5[2d6]+8 Slashing, Magic, Chaotic, Evil, Negative, Cold
Critical Profile: 18-20/x3

• Stealer of Souls Blackrazor hungers for the Souls of those you have defeated. When you strike the killing blow on an enemy, Blackrazor retains one Defeated Soul, up to a maximum of 5. Each Defeated Soul grants you +1/+3 Profane bonus to Melee Power, +1/+3 Profane bonus to Attack, +1/+2 Profane bonus to Melee Alacrity, +1/+3 Profane bonus to Damage and +1/+2 Profane bonus to Seeker. If you unequip Blackrazor, the Defeated Souls will be released. Defeated Souls last for 15 minutes and last thru Rests.
• Vorpal/Sovereign Vorpal
• Negative 1d6/3d6 and Cold1d6/3d6
• Psychic Block: This item wards you against harmful mind-altering effects, such as Domination and Command.
• On Crit, 3d6/9d6 Negative and 3d6/9d6 Cold Damage
• If you Block it casts Negative Energy Burst and the Defeated Souls will be released. Caster Level = Level 4/8 per Defeated Soul charge. Scales 100% with Negative Spell Power. No Max Caster Level.
  
  
• Or replace the On Crit damage with Vampirism 2d3 / 4d3. Possibly have two flavors? One with Crit damage, other with Vampirism?
  
• I've also thought about Haste some more, since it is in this weapon's heritage. Thinking once there is one charge of Defeated Souls active add a +10% Profane bonus to Movement Speed.

And finally here was my version with the inclusion of hidden effects based on prestiges (as this was previously possible with the ToD/Amrath gear):

Alright time to take my own crack on Blackrazor, Green will be the color of my changes based on other player suggestions and my own.

Echo of Blackrazor Great Sword
Minimum Level: 9/29
Damage Dice: [2d6]/5[2d6+4] Evil
Material: Crystal
Critical Profile: 18-20/x3

• Stealer of Souls: Blackrazor hungers for the Souls of those you have defeated. On a hit with this weapon, Blackrazor will apply a Soul-Leech on a target, marking them for 3 seconds. If the target dies within the 3 seconds of the mark, Blackrazor gains one Defeated Soul, up to a maximum of 5/20. Each Defeated Soul grants you +1 Profane bonus to Melee Power and +1 Profane bonus to Damage. Additionally, when you strike a killing blow you gain 25/150 temporary hit points, these last for thirty seconds. If you Block it casts Negative Energy Burst and the Defeated Souls will be released. Caster Level = Level 4/8 per Defeated Soul charge. Scales 100% with Negative Spell Power. No Max Caster Level. Defeated Souls last for 30 seconds and persist through rest.
• Vampiric Hunger:2d4 vampirism per hit and 1d3 level drain on vorpal/4d4 vampirism per hit and 2d3 level drain on vorpal. Additionally2d6/4d6 Negative Energy Damage to self on hit if striking undead.
• Blackrazor's Bite: Negative 1d6/3d6 and Cold 1d6/3d6 per hit. Negative 2d6/6d6 and Cold 2d6/6d6 on critical hits.
• Psychic Block: This item wards you against harmful mind-altering effects, such as Domination and Command. Grants fear immunity.
  
• Hidden Entropic: 2d6/4d6 Untyped damage per hit.
• Hidden Negative Amp: 20/60 Untyped Negative Energy Amp.
• Hidden Negative Spell Power: 25/75 Profane Negative Spell Power.
• Orange Augment Slot and Red Augment Slot

This merges the various forms of the sword from the editions together. I took the extra time to look them over and feel that this is the best version to keep all of the main points within the "4 effects" policy. Although I've got a feeling that making the damage type strictly evil like Celestia might not work, so perhaps merely make sure it has the evil DR flag in it's damage type. The hidden effects are meant to only show up if you have the correct Prestiges listed below with the requirements of the level 6 cores, this is to keep the power in check for the heroic versions essentially. And because I feel that giving it a class-specific list muddies the themes of which 'evil' oriented enhancement lines would be rewarded for wielding such a like minded weapon.

The three hidden effects only show up if you posses the Core 3 (level 6) of:

• Ravager
• Occult Slayer
• Assassin
• Soul Eater
• Ninja Spy (Considered a centered weapon like Midnight Greetings)
• Palemaster

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

I know that it is a word for word copy. However, you lacked the spell power increase that the actual Ameliorating Strike has; hence me stating it is a weaker version. Ameliorating Strike is/was a good ability due to the fact it scaled with spellpower and heal amp, and previously could proc off offhand strikes and doublestrikes... Shame the devs unnecessarily nerfed it just to make it 'viable for all combat styles'.

Your assumption is wrong. People know how to build for Vampirism, Regeneration, etc. The issue is there is no amount of heal amp in the game that can make those effects actually viable. I know you pine about how good they are, and I'm glad you enjoy them. The rest of us are going to continue looking at you like you're insane over the fact. The scaling just doesn't work in higher epics and it certainly doesn't work in reaper. Now if they removed the reaper penalty from any form of Regen (Itemization, Fast Healing, etc.) then maybe these builds could see more use or just bumped the healing rate/numbers it'd work out.

There is no correct answer for the speed option. It's sort of a flavor effect that could/should be dropped in favor of more 'useful' effects. The biggest problem here is how Haste as a spell is no longer relevant due to Speed items and the Blinding Haste feat. Both of these make any form of 'haste' one the weapon redundant unless you make it stacking, and if it's stacking the devs aren't going to give more than 5%. Which makes it a huge diminishing return for what would be 1 out of 4 item effect slots.

As much as you love Vampirism it's an actual oddity to say your lack of suggesting it on the weapon that screams Vampirism from a ten mile radius. However, my disagreement with Vampirism comes ironically from the same place as your suggestions. I'm not a fan of the current iteration that has 'higher' healing but a long cooldown. I've made peace with no chances of seeing the old cooldownless version, but I'm still not in agreement that 4d2 is actually endgame appropriate. Even with high amp in non-reaper I see a Nightmother's weapon proccing me for about 30-40. Reaper it often reduces to about 16-20, and that's only in the R1-2 range. There's a need for a healthy balance to be struck here, but it's one that again requires more Reaper-based tweaking than just the base effect itself.

As far as making the weapon more appropriate; like I said Paladin_Of_Power made great adaptive versions and one slightly more creative version with a negative energy burst on blocking that I loved and retweaked a bit myself. For the Temp HP solution my suggestion was the following:


Here is Paladin_of_Power's version:

And finally here was my version with the inclusion of hidden effects based on prestiges (as this was previously possible with the ToD/Amrath gear):

In epics, vampirism is a top-off effect that is inadequate if used alone but capable of topping off the stability of one's hitpoints if combined with good defense and other autoheal effects. Currently there is a build possible for Artificers and Warforged/Bladeforged but not possible for any other class/race within the range of viability for auto-heal procs, however vampirism suffers when it won't scale with repair amplification.

After running further tests, believe it or not I am okay with the current version of Vampirism but would like to see a minimum level 15 augment that grants your mainhand weapon Vampirism 2-4 depending on your level (Level 15 gets vampirism 2, level 20 gets vampirism 3, level 25 and on gets vampirism 4). The augment would be red but can be slotted into your weapon or offhand for the same effect applied to your main hand.

Further more, I believe Healer's Bounty, Greater Regeneration, and Repair Systems should all also be available on minimum level 15 augments.

Of course it screams vampirism, but frankly it also screams "I should have a filigree set themed after me"..... in which in all honesty is where I'd want the vampirism effect to go :P

I don't disagree with your ideas on Blackrazor effects wise, in all honesty I like the creativity and see how such effects would benefit a good variety of class builds and that's as far as my feelings on such go.

I would still want a Bastard sword version of it as that is my preferred weapon for single weapon fighting, every awesome level 29 great sword that does not come in bastard sword form while single weapon fighting builds are vastly ignored by DDO developers will be something I am likely to regard as a problem. A Fencing "trinket" of some sort for the offhand would be nice........ but when it comes to fighting styles, two weapon fighters get their two weapon fighting set daggers, Two handed fighters get their Bloodrage Chrism, and single weapon fighters get nothing unless they are bards or artificers.... not even cannith craftable orbs or randomly generated orbs.

[Renvar]

5 options for "I like your bastard sword" and 1 option for "I like the current greatsword" and nothing else is a skewed poll. You could have at least thrown in a "I don't like either option. I'd prefer something else (explain below)". To allow for an open minded discussion.

I think, even ignoring trolls, there is a fairly sized contingent that is not happy with the current great sword but does not see your bastard sword (or possibly any bastard sword) as a worthy alternative.

[Arkat]

I think, even ignoring trolls, there is a fairly sized contingent that is not happy with the current great sword but does not see your bastard sword (or possibly any bastard sword) as a worthy alternative.

That's EXACTLY how I feel about it.