The Shadow Assassin -- A Reaper Rogue

[Shadow_Jumper]

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[Domince]

What would you substitute completionist with if you don't have it?

[Shadow_Jumper]

What would you substitute completionist with if you don't have it?

Take Precision at level 3, then take Weapon Focus: Piercing at level 6, and take the second Weapon Focus at level 18.

[Annex]

That Rogue has a whole lot in common with my Cat Burglar.

[Maelodic]

No improved feint/dire charge?

Unless this is meant solely for party play where you never have agro/always expect others to control for you.

[blerkington]

Thank for writing this up. Always interesting to see how someone playing successfully in high skull endgame content does things.

There's an opportunity in the Assassin tree to save three points and spend them on something else. Stealthy Tier 3 still appears to be broken and doesn't seem to add any movement speed in sneak so perhaps you could stop at Tier 2. You could also spend just one point on Shiv and get the same effect (apart from the +[w] increase) with no change to cooldown. What do you think about this?

Looking at your enhancement point allocation is seriously tempting me to do more reincarnation. I only have two racial AP from doing elf and halfling but spend seven in the racial tree. Even just some of those other five points could be very useful.

Take care.

[Morroiel]

A typo in your enhancements (racial) - 11 points spent, all racial AP (you have 6 listed, which I assume was meant to tally the cores).

Additionally, you have a typo in your acrobat enhancements - I assume subtlety was supposed to be 1 not 2 for a total of 6 as written.

Curious why you took 1 point in killer? I also take 1 point out of shiv and take weakening strikes (with the additional 1 AP from losing killer rank 1). I'm unsure if the melee/ranged power debuff actually works on everything but I did test it on a few things a while back and it appeared to be granting a noticeable effect. This testing was done prior to reaper, so I don't know if it mucks with it or not. I also have no clue if it stacks with the warlock debuff.

100/120 -> 5/6ths damage if base melee power is 0.

2.2/2.5 -> .88 damage multiplier if base melee power is 150.

14.7/15 -> .98 damage multiplier if base melee power is 1400.

Anyways nice build +1 and thanks for the write up.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Unless this is meant solely for party play where you never have agro/always expect others to control for you.

This build is meant for high skull endgame grouping and raids. It is not a solo build. I have actually never really tried to solo on this build, I imagine it would be very bad at soloing.

Also touched up my enhancements. I messed up some of the AP spending. Build has 11 RAPs.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Thank for writing this up. Always interesting to see how someone playing successfully in high skull endgame content does things.

There's an opportunity in the Assassin tree to save three points and spend them on something else. Stealthy Tier 3 still appears to be broken and doesn't seem to add any movement speed in sneak so perhaps you could stop at Tier 2. You could also spend just one point on Shiv and get the same effect (apart from the +[w] increase) with no change to cooldown. What do you think about this?

Curious why you took 1 point in killer? I also take 1 point out of shiv and take weakening strikes (with the additional 1 AP from losing killer rank 1). I'm unsure if the melee/ranged power debuff actually works on everything but I did test it on a few things a while back and it appeared to be granting a noticeable effect. This testing was done prior to reaper, so I don't know if it mucks with it or not. I also have no clue if it stacks with the warlock debuff.

Thanks everyone for the comments! One of the main reasons I decided to post my build was to get some feedback from other rogues to see if I was missing something. And I agree that the enhancement specc for weakening strikes is the way to go, and would recommend it. I also apologize for some of the AP spending weirdness. It appears that public math is harder than I thought.

And to elaborate on my last reply, as that was a quick comment so that people don't misunderstand what this build is, and was planning on elaborating later, so here goes. This build does not solo. I run r7-10 endgame with this build, and haven't soloed on this build in ages. This build takes what I have learned from my endgame experiences, and how the optimal grouping setup is, and applies my favorite class (rogue) to that. This build is meant to do two things:

Kill Trash
Kill Red Named Bosses

And it does the first by using assassinate and DPS, and the second by using DPS.

Simply put, this build is sub optimal in a sub optimal group. It is a force multiplier, that adds lethality to a party that has structure, and will aid said party by bringing massive DPS to the table. I would not recommend this build to players who rarely group.


My standard playstyle on this build is to try and get ahead of the party if there are no reapers, and set up to assassinate a champion mage or archer. While I am doing that, the tank/tank-lite initiates the fight, and the caster gets to work CCiing the mobs. After picking off the dangerous caster mobs, I then go inwards and DPS down the CCed trash.

[Maelodic]

My standard playstyle on this build is to try and get ahead of the party if there are no reapers, and set up to assassinate a champion mage or archer. While I am doing that, the tank/tank-lite initiates the fight, and the caster gets to work CCiing the mobs. After picking off the dangerous caster mobs, I then go inwards and DPS down the CCed trash.

Sounds like a ton of fun, and you're playing assassin Rogue exactly as most would love to.

[nokowi]

Thanks everyone for the comments! One of the main reasons I decided to post my build was to get some feedback from other rogues to see if I was missing something. And I agree that the enhancement specc for weakening strikes is the way to go, and would recommend it. I also apologize for some of the AP spending weirdness. It appears that public math is harder than I thought.

And to elaborate on my last reply, as that was a quick comment so that people don't misunderstand what this build is, and was planning on elaborating later, so here goes. This build does not solo. I run r7-10 endgame with this build, and haven't soloed on this build in ages. This build takes what I have learned from my endgame experiences, and how the optimal grouping setup is, and applies my favorite class (rogue) to that. This build is meant to do two things:

Kill Trash
Kill Red Named Bosses

And it does the first by using assassinate and DPS, and the second by using DPS.

Simply put, this build is sub optimal in a sub optimal group. It is a force multiplier, that adds lethality to a party that has structure, and will aid said party by bringing massive DPS to the table. I would not recommend this build to players who rarely group.


My standard playstyle on this build is to try and get ahead of the party if there are no reapers, and set up to assassinate a champion mage or archer. While I am doing that, the tank/tank-lite initiates the fight, and the caster gets to work CCiing the mobs. After picking off the dangerous caster mobs, I then go inwards and DPS down the CCed trash.

Thanks for making this super clear. I was imagining someone trying to play heroics with 6 strength

Looks like a good build to swap into at 30.

I have always been a fan of slippery mind over defensive roll or maybe skill focus. Somehow I think you are usually already dead if you get hit below 20% HP in the R7-R10 range.

I doubt you would notice much difference, either way, because if you are playing effectively in a group you don't get attacked that much.

Dire charge is of course the other optional feat choice - and largely depends on how your individual group plays (how often your own cc might save you).

[Webfoot337]

Thanks everyone for the comments! One of the main reasons I decided to post my build was to get some feedback from other rogues to see if I was missing something. And I agree that the enhancement specc for weakening strikes is the way to go, and would recommend it. I also apologize for some of the AP spending weirdness. It appears that public math is harder than I thought.

And to elaborate on my last reply, as that was a quick comment so that people don't misunderstand what this build is, and was planning on elaborating later, so here goes. This build does not solo. I run r7-10 endgame with this build, and haven't soloed on this build in ages. This build takes what I have learned from my endgame experiences, and how the optimal grouping setup is, and applies my favorite class (rogue) to that. This build is meant to do two things:

Kill Trash
Kill Red Named Bosses

And it does the first by using assassinate and DPS, and the second by using DPS.

Simply put, this build is sub optimal in a sub optimal group. It is a force multiplier, that adds lethality to a party that has structure, and will aid said party by bringing massive DPS to the table. I would not recommend this build to players who rarely group.


My standard playstyle on this build is to try and get ahead of the party if there are no reapers, and set up to assassinate a champion mage or archer. While I am doing that, the tank/tank-lite initiates the fight, and the caster gets to work CCiing the mobs. After picking off the dangerous caster mobs, I then go inwards and DPS down the CCed trash.

Curious what your standing assassinate dc is? Do you have a swap gear set? I am playing a fully done with all Tr's rogue (50RxP) and struggle to get above 105 without major sacrifices to DPS. I find thats not enough on R8-10 in endgame content. My enhancements are similar to yours however am playing as human and have improved feint as the extra feat. Still working through the gear set-up, I have everything you listed and will do a before/after compare to my current setup as an fyi. It does seem as your dodge is low as mine is 34 before reaper and I am assuming that is a typo.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Curious what your standing assassinate dc is? Do you have a swap gear set? I am playing a fully done with all Tr's rogue (50RxP) and struggle to get above 105 without major sacrifices to DPS. I find thats not enough on R8-10 in endgame content. My enhancements are similar to yours however am playing as human and have improved feint as the extra feat. Still working through the gear set-up, I have everything you listed and will do a before/after compare to my current setup as an fyi. It does seem as your dodge is low as mine is 34 before reaper and I am assuming that is a typo.

If I am running with assassassinate items (Cannith Crafted trinket/ring) then I run 93 DC in reaper with Yugo pot.

You could pick up more with:
Legendary Knifepalm (+2)
Assassinate DC Sentient Dagger (+4ish)
Scion of Astral Plane (+4)

Those would bump you up to the 100-105 range on this build, however as you have stated, even 105 is not good enough for most melee high fort save mobs. I generally focus assassinates on ranger/caster mobs, for which 93 is high enough.


As for the dodge, that was my standing dodge, without MTF, reaper etc. Dodge cap on the build is around 30 with no reaper points increasing maximum dodge. I will update for reaper/self buff stats.

[blerkington]

That does seem like the core issue for building an assassin right now; balancing DPS, assassination DC and dodge.

What may not be apparent from this thread is how much more DPS Shadow's build may be getting than someone running in SD, even if they took Scion of the Ethereal Plane and didn't otherwise sacrifice DPS with their feat and enhancement choices. The figures in that recent thread about top DPS builds suggest the difference might be as wide as 21k vs 13k.

So you'd expect there to be some costs to DC, dodge and utility for such a large increase in DPS. For someone who is primarily raiding and running other hard content with a group that can CC, control boss aggro properly and heal, this build really brings the DPS.

But even though it is durable staying alive on it while keeping up your DPS in hard content won't be easy; it will take experience and skill. There's been a resurgence of interest on Khyber in assassins recently, but some of the players who tried it realised that it's not an easy, magic bullet build for completing harder content and abandoned it again.

The Falconry tree seems like it will give a little DC boost for 4AP for those who can find the spare points. But there are definitely choices to be made already with deciding whether or not to take KTA, going into acrobat further for the dodge and dex bonus, and using vistani for the extra boss DPS it offers if you go through to Tier 4.

Thanks.

[Shadow_Jumper]

What may not be apparent from this thread is how much more DPS Shadow's build may be getting than someone running in SD, even if they took Scion of the Ethereal Plane and didn't otherwise sacrifice DPS with their feat and enhancement choices. The figures in that recent thread about top DPS builds suggest the difference might be as wide as 21k vs 13k.

All the rogue assassin DPS numbers from that thread were this build. However the SD versus LD tests were done with a more defensive gear setup, and the comparable LD DPS for that 13k SD was 17.7k

With DPS optimized gear layout (the gear listed in thread) this build tops out at around 20-22k DPS. Red named kobold beatdown times were roughly 21-27 seconds for 500k hp boss kobold.

The Falconry tree seems like it will give a little DC boost for 4AP for those who can find the spare points. But there are definitely choices to be made already with deciding whether or not to take KTA, going into acrobat further for the dodge and dex bonus, and using vistani for the extra boss DPS it offers if you go through to Tier 4.

Thanks.

Falconry may be a good easy DC boost for those that need it if they loose too much from dropping SD in that aspect. Otherwise, I recommend staying away from the tree. The only APs I would consider spendable are those in TA, however unless you absolutely need the 3 DC, the threat reduction from TA will give much more survivability increases than what is available in Falconer.

[blerkington]

All the rogue assassin DPS numbers from that thread were this build. However the SD versus LD tests were done with a more defensive gear setup, and the comparable LD DPS for that 13k SD was 17.7k

With DPS optimized gear layout (the gear listed in thread) this build tops out at around 20-22k DPS. Red named kobold beatdown times were roughly 21-27 seconds for 500k hp boss kobold.

Falconry may be a good easy DC boost for those that need it if they loose too much from dropping SD in that aspect. Otherwise, I recommend staying away from the tree. The only APs I would consider spendable are those in TA, however unless you absolutely need the 3 DC, the threat reduction from TA will give much more survivability increases than what is available in Falconer.

That's good to know about the DPS potential of rogues running in SD. It's not as far apart as I thought.

When I was looking at the Falconry tree again just now, it seems like the bonus to assassination is in Tier 2, not Tier 1, so it will be more expensive than I thought. I don't plan on spending any points in the tree; the opportunity costs seems too high. Plus I don't want a goofy animal companion.

Threat reduction is definitely a real issue for melee rogues now. There's not as much of it on the better gear we might wear at cap, and our DPS went up a lot from vistani. It's made me pay more attention to group composition before I decide to join because of the chance of suddenly and involuntarily becoming the group's tank.

Thanks.

[HuneyMunster]

Assassinate DC:
DPS gear setup in reaper: 77
DC gear setup in reaper: 93

Did you include Tenser's in your Assassinate DC?

[Shadow_Jumper]

Did you include Tenser's in your Assassinate DC?

No. Just gear/yugo pot.

[Maelodic]

Plus I don't want a goofy animal companion.

It's a toggle - you don't have to have it summoned.

[HuneyMunster]

No. Just gear/yugo pot.

With Astral Plane instead of Ethereal Plane would put max Assassinate DC at 97 and 100 with Tenser and remnant pot. Three ranks into Shadow Dodge instead of KtA and Vistani Knife Fighter IV would put max at 102-103. Im not gonna include the +3 Dex pots that can drop on dice rolls as they are short duration and rare to get. Shadowdancer over Dreadnought is another +2 to +3 DC.


If was to drop either Ethereal Plane or Harper which would have the biggest impact on dps?