Gnome or Drow?

[Vincentthegerman001]

I want to build a Pale Master, but can't decide which race to use.

Is it really up to either choice? I'm more familiar with Drow but Gnome would then be 'new' and 'novel'.

Drow get the sleep immunity, extra save versus enchants, and stackable spell resist. Gnomes get a higher UMD, and a bonus to attack and AC - decent since I want to use Strategic/Tactical Combat + Master's to shoulder my way through any spot where I'd think 'hey, maybe I should conserve SP'.

What do you guys think?

[unbongwah]

I have no idea if drow SR can hit viable levels, but undead form renders you immune to Enchantment spells - and of course Necromantic spells just tickle - so SR is largely useless to a Pale Master anyway. Drow can gain +1 Enchantment DCs, but I don't consider that a big deal for a PM either.

Gnome is probably worth it just for Color Spray SLA, TBH. But add in the bonuses you just mentioned, plus possibly the Scribing Dragonmark line, and about the only wizard build better than a gnome is a Deep Gnome.

[Enoach]

The difference of Drow or Gnome when it comes to Pale Master …


Drow have access to +1 Enchantment DCs - I disagree with unbongwah that it is a "big deal", but that is because I tend to lean towards being a "Controller" much like a High Priest of Vol

Gnome have access to up to +3 Illusion DCs. This is a consideration if you enjoy using the Phantasmal Killer Spell (Deep Gnome can get this as a SLA). Gnome also have Wand/Scroll Mastery in their Racial Tree. This can be valuable if you use this and have points to spend in Racial, but is actually more valuable to classes that don't have this ability available to them.

Notes on undead form
You are immune to Sleep - So it does not matter if the base race is as once you take up the "shroud" you too will be immune
In fact Undead are immune to a lot of effects caused by spells that having Spell Resistance would be a benefit - Sure there are some spells like "Undeath to Death" but I can't think of once where I had to make a save against that spell vs the Environment.


I've done 3 lives as a Drow, and finishing 3rd as a Gnome. I've also done 3 lives as a Deep Gnome. Deep Gnome is my favorite because of the SLAs available.
My feeling is the choice depends on how many points you are thinking of spending in the Racial Tree to weigh out synergetic spending vs just need to spend to get ability you are actually after.

[Arty_Farty]

It is a very easy choice...
- If you want to look like an awesome wizard pick Drow.
- If you want to look like an incompetent wizard who has accidentally shrunk themselves pick Gnome.

Sartorin (Drow Palemaster)

[Enoach]

It is a very easy choice...
- If you want to look like an awesome wizard pick Drow.
- If you want to look like an incompetent wizard who has accidentally shrunk themselves pick Gnome.

Sartorin (Drow Palemaster)

Funny.

Ok, I'll give you that Drow do look more impressive as undead, while Gnome does have that "Claudia" feel from "Interview with a Vampire"

Of course in Wrath form it is more "Casper the Friendly Ghost" vs just about any other ghost

[Swimms]

I want to build a Pale Master, but can't decide which race to use.

Is it really up to either choice? I'm more familiar with Drow but Gnome would then be 'new' and 'novel'.

Drow get the sleep immunity, extra save versus enchants, and stackable spell resist. Gnomes get a higher UMD, and a bonus to attack and AC - decent since I want to use Strategic/Tactical Combat + Master's to shoulder my way through any spot where I'd think 'hey, maybe I should conserve SP'.

What do you guys think?

I am playing a Deep Gnome PM right now, currently level 25 and its a blast. Taking illusion line in Archmage plus Deep Gnome enhancements gives me access to two PK SLAs, plus regular PK and Finger. I can often times eliminate 4 mobs from long range before the fight even starts. The color spray SLA is super nice as well. Lots of fun tools to play around with. This is the build I used (credit=Drawinguy) on the last page of the "definitive" PM guide.

"So one of my Gnome lives I decided to play this Necro build, and I have to say, you should seriously consider Gnome.

What you lose (compared to our listed Enhancement splits):
- 1 Necro DC (I know this is a big deal, but 91 Necro DC is still amazing)
- 2 Spell Pen (as that's all you took of the possible 3)
- 4% Spell crit chance
- Necro SLAs (as changing out to Illusion for PK SLA - while losing Enervation sucks, a 6 sec CD PK and useful buff SLAs are nice)
- 6 less points in Archmage = 6 less spellpower and 12 less SP
- Less carry capacity (not that it is ever an issue, an augment covers you, and bag space has always been the limiting factor)

What you gain:
+ 3 Illusion DCs (if they fix Gnome active PLs, that would be another +3 for +6 Illusion DCs)
+ 2 PK SLAs (that gives two cheap instakills for when conserving SP, and with 4-5 ranged instakill spells, you can clear rooms from far away)
+ Color Spray which is a nice CC
+ 3 to all saves, dodge through enemies
+ 2 more CON along with 4 build points to spare beyond capping INT and CON. Dumping that into WIS along with +2 racial WIS gives +3 higher WILL saves.
+ 6 MRR
+ 2 UMD (not that it's really needed...)
+ 4 dodge
+ 40 SR (at cap)
+ Awesome Dances!!!!!!

Once they fix Deep Gnome PLs, Illusion will become the highest possible DC school. While Illusion is not worth building as your main DC stat, even skipping all feats, Deep Gnome still shoots it into effective end-game levels as you should still be able to push it to the mid to high 80s even with no gear changes (which would be difficult anyways). And if you're not getting aura procs, that could be boosted further by Deific if you chain your PKs and/or start with a Color Spray to keep things still. With 6s/7s (after ED)/16s PKs, in content with more sporadic mobs, you could run just using your PKs. And if you're at an odd INT (or running Draconic), you can twist Draconic Presence for another +3 to PK.

Even without the +3 Deep Gnome PLs working I found the PKs to be effective in EE content. With full metas, an Energy Drain > PK SLA is still cheaper than a Finger. Even then most content doesn't need prep. My gear is not quite as complete as yours, and my PK still ran 80 DC (I did run with Draconic Presence twisted in Magister as I had odd INT). I would guess you could run with yours at ~84.

Here is the Enhancement spread I used:
Enhancements:
Wizard: Pale Master (41 ap):
C: Dark Reaping (1), Zombie (1), Vampire (1), Wraith (1), Lich (1), Master of Death (1)
I: Deathless Vigor III (6), Spell Critical: Negative (2), Negative Energy Conduit III (3)
Ii: Efficient: Quicken III (6), Spell Critical: Negative (2), Bone Armor III (3)
III: Spell Critical: Negative (2), Intelligence (2), Cloak of Night I (1)
IV: Spell Critical: Negative (2), Intelligence (2),
V: Improved Shrouding (2), Necromantic Focus (2)

Wizard: Archmage (23 ap):
C: Illusion IV (4)
I: Traditionalist Caster III (3), Spell Critical (2)
II: Spell Critical (2), Efficient: Maximize I (2)
III: Intelligence (2), Spell Pen III (6)
IV: Intelligence (2)

Deep Gnome (16 ap):
C: Wariness (2ap), Intelligence II (4ap), Retain Essence (1ap)
I: Illusory Escape (1ap), Underdark Experience (3ap)
II: Color Spray (1 ap)
III: Racial Spell Focus: Illusion (3ap)
IV: Phantasmal Killer SLA (1ap)


Deep Gnome has some pretty nice goodies, so the choices are tough. You can't get the +20 Spellcraft without spending more points in the tree, but even +10 is great (every point matters for your dots and Ruins). You also have an option for +3 PRR, a Stoneskin SLA, and lowering the SP cost of Color Spray so it can be a cheap "Oh Kitten" CC spell when you're out of SP as a 2SP cost means you can cast it twice for every Echoes tick. But the split I took is my favorite."

[Kaboom2112]

Gnome is the master race.

[slarden]

Gnome for sure. You lose 4 build pets with drow and have less hp with no real advantage. Deep gnome is even better if you have it.

[Enoach]

Gnome for sure. You lose 4 build pets with drow and have less hp with no real advantage. Deep gnome is even better if you have it.

Well the caveat is that is only partially true and only on your 3+ life

Races like Drow get multiple benefits.
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution

The opportunity cost value is based on the TOP amount you would have needed to pay to achieve that
Example: the value of the +2 Intelligence on a Wizard going for the MAX starting intelligence is actually +4 attribute points per for a total of +8 Attribute build points. Which is how much you would have needed to spend in order to go from 18 to 20 if you had to spend the points.

Now this is countered by the -2 Constitution as it would cost you 6 more points to achieve a starting 16 Constitution.

So this alone brings you to equal to a 34 point build as you are still +2 over the 32 Point Build of a Human or races that have a trade between two attributes such as elf's +2 Dex with -2 Con.

With the +2 Dex and +2 Charisma this can bring the value equal to a 36 point build. Of course that depends on the value of +2 Dex/Cha for your build

So at worst a Drow for a Dex/Int/Cha build is as good as a 34 point build. At best for a M.A.D. build that needs DEX/CHA/INT it is slightly better.


The Races it falls behind against are Dragonborn with its +2 to multiple attributes for Str/Cha builds, and possibly Aasimar for Wis/(cha/str) builds.

[sephiroth1084]

What about Morninglord?

The +1 Lesser Heart sucks, and the racial cores are worthless aside from the +Int, but +3 Spell Pen (and +100 SP) looks pretty valuable. Does that outweigh the benefits of (deep) gnome?

[Alled78]

Color spray is tooo useful

I say gnome for sure

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

I want to build a Pale Master, but can't decide which race to use.

Is it really up to either choice? I'm more familiar with Drow but Gnome would then be 'new' and 'novel'.

Drow get the sleep immunity, extra save versus enchants, and stackable spell resist. Gnomes get a higher UMD, and a bonus to attack and AC - decent since I want to use Strategic/Tactical Combat + Master's to shoulder my way through any spot where I'd think 'hey, maybe I should conserve SP'.

What do you guys think?

As of the Fall 2018 Drow sit at the literal *worst* DDO playable race. They desperately need a dev pass to make them viable again. Since the spell resistance change to DDO, the one reason to make a Drow vanished; now Sun Elf is a way better choice, or Dragonborn, or Deep Gnome. Its amazing too considering Drow are the most popular of all dungeon and dragons races. They need to have their level adjustments removed, allowing them to do a max 36 point build, not 32 - considering how powerful Dragonborn are, Drow need a lot of love to make them worth playing.

They also need more SLAs - they have 1 very good one - they need a few more to make Drow compete with their underdark bretheren the Deep Gnome. Also their inherent racial Spell Resistance should be improved greatly since Spell Resistance is the Drow 'thing' to work in EE/ER/LE/LR content, perhaps the 5th racial core enhancement adding +20 stacking Spell Resistance or something to make it viable endgame.

[C-Dog]

Here's the bottom line...

As a rule, Drow is great if you're a new player w/ only 28 point builds, and/or (sometimes) if you have a MAD build and need two or three of Dex/Int/Cha. Any other race as a 32 point build is usually superior.

(And, yeah, Sleep is only relevant for a few starting levels, and the SR has been nerfed beyond practical usefulness.)

On a melee wizard, the choices are tougher - -Str & lower carrying capacity could hurt, but offensive boost from the Color Spray more than makes up for that.

Gnome. You'll get used to the cosmetics.

[Memnir]

Gnome is a choice I've always had a hell of a lot of fun playing.

[Indubitably]

Gnome.

Hands down... colour spray is godly, and will remain godly, and cheap, and spamable, it's a build onto itself.
Otherwise, you don't even need to worry about illusion.

I have gone the whole deep gnome 2 PK illusionist route, its fun for a few levels, then it starts to not work so well later into epic

[ned_ellis]

It is a very easy choice...
- If you want to look like an awesome wizard pick Drow.
- If you want to look like an incompetent wizard who has accidentally shrunk themselves pick Gnome.

Sartorin (Drow Palemaster)

This!
Elleyn (Drow Paletrapper)

To be fair though, if you're spending in a racial tree, the shorta**e wins
Would be nice if they took a look at the drow tree...

[Veritaus]

I want to build a Pale Master, but can't decide which race to use.

Is it really up to either choice? I'm more familiar with Drow but Gnome would then be 'new' and 'novel'.

Drow get the sleep immunity, extra save versus enchants, and stackable spell resist. Gnomes get a higher UMD, and a bonus to attack and AC - decent since I want to use Strategic/Tactical Combat + Master's to shoulder my way through any spot where I'd think 'hey, maybe I should conserve SP'.

What do you guys think?

Gnomes get permanent Blur in their racial tree. Thats really nice.

[C-Dog]

Welcome to the forums, V!

When reading over threads you've found via Search, always double check the dates. A year-and-a-half later, a one-line response is not really that useful, nor worth a necro (unless it's really on topic).

Readya around!
o/

[Rush007]

Yes slightly less INT but the shaken debuff works on spells which is in the racial tree for -2 saves. -10% slashing damage and stacking prr to 20 which is very nice for reduction of damage along with being able to pick heavy armor body feat and using the magic dps set.

I also think you gain healing amp in undead from vs bladeforged for positive spells.

[Palumtra]

Gnome or Deep Gnome, Deep Gnome is obviously better.
+4 int total(+2 Racial, +2 from racial tree),good CC SLA (Stoneskin and PK for DG), optional free Blur effect.
Sun-Elf is also an option, Arcanum, also +4 int total, optional Fey Energy Tap/Sight not to mention the big heal and access to Aid/DW/SR, but you need a +1 Lesser Heart if you want capstone (and you should), you also get hit chance bonuses if you want to go with melee via EK

As others mentioned you get more stat point value overall as a non-Drow at the moment especially at 3rd and later lives.