Best destiny for Fire Druid

[Xyfiel]

Main ones I am looking at right now are Crusader, Draconic, and Shiraldi. What spells does shiraldi multi proc from?

I won't stay at 30 more than a few weeks so it doesn't have to be perfect. Karma isn't an issue. Have no problem swapping either for speed running slayers/wk/dailies and for elite/reaper.

[Hjarki]

Main ones I am looking at right now are Crusader, Draconic, and Shiraldi. What spells does shiraldi multi proc from?

Shiradi isn't very impressive. The only spell I know off-hand that can work well with Shiradi is Fire Seeds, but it's not a particularly good spell. Shiradi in general doesn't work all that well with Druid since Druids tend to use massive over-time spells - adding ~14.5 damage per attack is a trivial improvement at best.

Draconic is decent if you want both Dragon Spell Knowledge and Energy Burst. However, you need to take Magister if you want to combine Master of Evocation and Dragon Spell Knowledge.

I'm not sure what Crusader provides - it's mostly a melee destiny. Exalted Angel will generally permit the highest DCs due to the combination of +Wisdom in tree and +3 DC in cores.

[Wh070aa]

I would say Draconic and twist in Empyrean Magic, if you are pure caster, instead of caster/melee hybrid if hybrid, just do whatever.

[Hobgoblin]

Shiradi isn't very impressive. The only spell I know off-hand that can work well with Shiradi is Fire Seeds, but it's not a particularly good spell. Shiradi in general doesn't work all that well with Druid since Druids tend to use massive over-time spells - adding ~14.5 damage per attack is a trivial improvement at best.

Draconic is decent if you want both Dragon Spell Knowledge and Energy Burst. However, you need to take Magister if you want to combine Master of Evocation and Dragon Spell Knowledge.

I'm not sure what Crusader provides - it's mostly a melee destiny. Exalted Angel will generally permit the highest DCs due to the combination of +Wisdom in tree and +3 DC in cores.

crusader has fire sp in it.also empyryan magic

[Jetrule]

I would try out Divine Crusader with energy burst twisted in. Concencrate should be realy nice with high fire and healing power for you especially breaking everything's fire resistance. Divine crusader is a fairly tanky destiny with some decent defenses in there. I would bet Exalted angel runs a bit nicer for a druid caster than draconic. It is certainly worth trying both out though. Even though Shiradi seems to have been made with a druid caster in mind, it is lackluster on a druid. Not awful but maybe a 4th best choice. 5th choice but in some situations on some tank focused builds a good choice might be unyielding sentinel for party tanking everything in the middle of your pile of aoe's

[silinteresting]

Main ones I am looking at right now are Crusader, Draconic, and Shiraldi. What spells does shiraldi multi proc from?

I won't stay at 30 more than a few weeks so it doesn't have to be perfect. Karma isn't an issue. Have no problem swapping either for speed running slayers/wk/dailies and for elite/reaper.

having just finished a druid caster on my main for fun which i nicknamed burn baby burn. going in throwing down a earthquake
then a firewall on top and siting in there with my body of sun going was great fun. i tried every epic destiny to see what was best
and for soloing reaper 7's and below my conclusions are as follows:

1, do not run in unyielding its a complete waste a few extra hit points are not needed, also forget about shiradi as the procs do
not out way the other advantages gained from other destiny's.

2, draconic is the best destiny if you are running reaper 4/5 and below as they burn so quick and to behonest the most fun destiny
for a druid caster. remember to twist in emperian.

3, the best destiny for a soloist is without a shadow of doubt crusader, i want bore everyone with the details but your very hard
to kill and your dc's are awesome.

4, for the odd times i ran with a group the exalted was the better destiny, high dc's for your quake and a couple of heals for your group.

have fun playing a druid fire caster i have to admit if i was to finally hang up my tr boots then this would be my final build it is without
a doubt bloody awesome.

your friend sil

just wanted to add that the character i ran was a 17 druid 2 fvs 1 wizard. seeing your spell points double from the fvs for
anyone that solo's is just bloody awesome.

[Hjarki]

crusader has fire sp in it.also empyryan magic

Both are twistable.

[slarden]

In my opinion exalted angel with consecration, sacred ground, empyrean magic, evocation dc twisted in is optimal. Works great low to mid skull soloing and higher skull with party. Bogw and earthquake are great cc combo.

It’s possible to get a decent int or charisma for draconic but exalted angel and divine crusader are more synergistic and overall better with a wisdom casting build.

i like 17 Druid 3 fvs for split. That split can work ok with unyielding sentinel if you are tanky because you can get some dps out of shield of condemnation, and I would stick with same twists in us, but I can clear faster with exalted angel.

[Hobgoblin]

Both are twistable.

yes i know - but it was the only thing i could see for a caster in the tree

[Hjarki]

i like 17 Druid 3 fvs for split. That split can work ok with unyielding sentinel if you are tanky because you can get some dps out of shield of condemnation, and I would stick with same twists in us, but I can clear faster with exalted angel.

I thought the same thing for a while, but pure eventually won out for me. Getting +3 caster levels is ~15% more damage - and worth a lot more than what FvS offers. The major virtues of AoV are the ability to turn your weapon into an implement (somewhat superfluous since your weapon is probably already an implement) and the temporary SP proc (less effective than the one already available from the pet + Shrike).

As an aside, this is also why the seemingly inferior Magister will tend to generate more damage than Draconic - you can twist Dragon Knowledge but not Master of Evocation. Power creep has also made caster levels far better than raw spellpower from Epic Destinies. +30 spellpower when you've only got 100 spellpower is pretty strong. +30 spellpower when you've already got 800 spellpower isn't all that effective.

[slarden]

I thought the same thing for a while, but pure eventually won out for me. Getting +3 caster levels is ~15% more damage - and worth a lot more than what FvS offers. The major virtues of AoV are the ability to turn your weapon into an implement (somewhat superfluous since your weapon is probably already an implement) and the temporary SP proc (less effective than the one already available from the pet + Shrike).

As an aside, this is also why the seemingly inferior Magister will tend to generate more damage than Draconic - you can twist Dragon Knowledge but not Master of Evocation. Power creep has also made caster levels far better than raw spellpower from Epic Destinies. +30 spellpower when you've only got 100 spellpower is pretty strong. +30 spellpower when you've already got 800 spellpower isn't all that effective.

Sorry, but I am not buying your 15% more damage claim. You get 6% more crit chance with aov, more spellpower and shield of condemnation which procs often and this benefits most epic spells as well. I think pure is a good way to go as well, but I found dps and dungeon clearing in general faster with the /3 fvs splash vs. pure.]

[Hjarki]

Sorry, but I am not buying your 15% more damage claim.

Most spells do "X damage per level". A maximum level cap of 20, plus another 3, means 15% more damage before all other effects are taken into account.

You get 6% more crit chance with aov,

You'll probably have 40%+ critical chance, meaning all 3 levels are +4% damage or +5% with Scion of Fire.

more spellpower

You're getting around ~+50 Fire Spellpower, on top of a conservative estimate of ~600 Spellpower - which is +7.5% damage.

and shield of condemnation which procs often and this benefits most epic spells as well.

It only benefits Light spells, most of which really aren't all that competitive with the existing Druid spells (although you may save some SP since they come from SLAs). Your Light spellpower will also lag your Fire spell by a huge margin. It also requires the target hit you, which isn't a good pre-requisite for effective casting.

I think pure is a good way to go as well, but I found dps and dungeon clearing in general faster with the /3 fvs splash vs. pure.

In truth, focusing on Fire instead of Cold will generally hurt you in terms of dps/clearing. However, trading off +10 SP, +4 caster levels and +2 DC for ~50 Fire Spellpower and 6% spell critical normally isn't going to lead to higher dps.

[slarden]

Most spells do "X damage per level". A maximum level cap of 20, plus another 3, means 15% more damage before all other effects are taken into account..

For fire druid epic spells and slas such as arcane pulse, ruin, greater ruin, hellball, EA slas, consecration and others your dps will be less because 3 druid caster levels don't increase your dps at all, but the spell power and crit chance, vulnerability from AoV does increase dps. So no it doesn't mean 15% more dps, it means 15% more damage on some of the heroic spells in a fire druid's rotation. Some heroic spells don't get additional damage out of the 3 extra druid levels and some of those do get extra dps from AoV.

[Hjarki]

For fire druid epic spells and slas such as arcane pulse, ruin, greater ruin, hellball, EA slas, consecration

Arcane Pulse is 132 base damage, while Creeping Cold is 174 and Greater Creeping Cold is 420. Cold spellpower stacks higher than Force and Cold gets additional vulnerability bonuses. Enveloping Swarm is about midway between the two Cold DoT. Indeed, you'll probably deal more damage/time with Call Lightning than Arcane Pulse.

Ruin is a bit better, but it's still not a top choice. Greater Ruin will do more base damage than any of your heroic spells. However, both have a 15 second cooldown which sharply limits their utility. You're almost always going to be better off using standard Druid spells against anything that isn't a boss and the two feat investment to create an almost imperceptible boost in damage/time isn't really worth it.

Hellball is 186 base damage, but this can effectively be sliced in half due to the horrible save. Only a quarter of it is buffed by AoV critical chance. And you're likely to get terrible performance out of it since you're not going to invest in all the different spellpower categories.

Avenging Light is 71.5 base damage. Light is a weaker spellpower than elemental spellpower, meaning the only reason to cast this is because it's basically free. It's tough to punch through the Fort DCs as well, so you'll often find this at half damage. For comparison, your Produce Flame will do comparable damage, is available in SLA form and doesn't have a save.

Sunbolt is weaker than Sunbeam so, again, it's only worthwhile due to being an SLA (and saving SP). It also can't be twisted.

Divine Wrath does about the same base damage/time as Ice Storm (less damage/cast) and significantly less than Body of the Sun or Storm of Vengeance. Again, it can't be twisted.

and others your dps will be less because 3 druid caster levels don't increase your dps at all, but the spell power and crit chance, vulnerability from AoV does increase dps.

Almost everything you listed above are either weak or not terribly relevant portions of your dps - you probably shouldn't be wasting feat slots on most of it and about half of it only applies if you choose Exalted Angel as your Destiny. The crit chance from AoV applies to almost none of your primary damage spells, nor does the vulnerability.

Both AoV and SH's grant +1 spellpower per point, so you're basically comparing Scourge vs. +10 from cores. Scourge is, fully stacked, +30 SP. However, it's relatively hard to stack when your best spells don't trigger it - you have to essentially take time to cast inferior spells just to get those stacks.

The +1 caster level/max caster level capstone applies to almost everything that can scale with level.

So no it doesn't mean 15% more dps, it means 15% more damage on some of the heroic spells in a fire druid's rotation. Some heroic spells don't get additional damage out of the 3 extra druid levels and some of those do get extra dps from AoV.

Even on spells where the three extra levels don't help, the extra spellpower, DC and bonus caster level/max caster level from the capstone do. You seem to be aiming to improve the weak parts of the rotation rather than the strong parts - almost none of the spells you mentioned are ones I would cast except if I happened to be in EA destiny on the "what the heck... it's basically free" principle. While EA is a nice enough destiny, the primary advantage wouldn't be damage - it would be the +3 DC in core. Remember, when you take EA, you're also losing +3 caster level/max caster level for virtually everything (including all those things you listed) from Magister.

Shield of Condemnation does go a long way towards making up the disparity between Elemental and Light spells. But taking 5 hits just so you can reach the same damage you could have been doing from across the room isn't a very sensible strategy.

[Xyfiel]

Thank you to everyone for the input. I wasn't able to play as much as normal so just got 17 when I planned to be 20 by now. I had considered 3Fvs and 2Fvs/1Wiz. Will need to decide which of the three options I want to do before I take 18 today. Based on your input and what twists I want I will try Crusader first. Partially because I started of with another build in mind and swapped half way through. As such I am Elf and prefer to be in a wisdom destiny to help make up for the lack of racial wisdom.

[slarden]

Creeping Cold is 174 and Greater Creeping Cold is 420. Cold spellpower stacks higher than Force and Cold gets additional vulnerability bonuses.


as Ice Storm (less damage/cast)

.

OP's title: "Best Destiny for Fire Druid" - compared to your responses..... just to name one problem with your thread of the 10 or so I noticed off the top of my head.

I am not going to get into specifics because you don't seem to consider any of the benefits of aov in your discussion and use spells in your examples that would do MORE damage with 17 druid / 3 fvs and portray it like it's a disadvantage. You included spells that top out at caster level 15 or less and others that don't get extra damage from druid caster level but rather just a few more seconds of duration. Some of those spells are boosted by aov and all by empyrean magic. You strayed too far from the OP's fire druid topic to continue that discussion.

Getting back on to the top of the Op's thread - Fire Druid, the synergy between fire, light, druid, fvs aov is basically the 4-6% crit chance from aov+ the 10% crit chance increase from empyrean magic which is more synergistic to charge up with a fire/light/positive combo. Some of the other Aov things mentioned are really just bonuses. Be sure to get burnscar sash for heroic levels and legendary burnscar sash for level cap as this items stacks with almost all other fire items for fire/acid spellpower. The alignment and fire portion of consecration damage is boosted by fire which is significant since you can get a really high fire spellpower with burnscar sash.

If you do splash druid 18 druid / 2 fvs is another reasonable choice.

Good luck!

[Hjarki]

OP's title: "Best Destiny for Fire Druid" - compared to your responses..... just to name one problem with your thread of the 10 or so I noticed off the top of my head.

I didn't design the Druid spell set. The fact that the best single target damage spells - by an enormous margin - available to Druids are Cold-based is not my doing. This is true even on a Fire Druid. This is true even on your approach to a Fire Druid. Playing a "Fire Druid" doesn't mean you spitefully avoid casting your best spells because they're the 'wrong' element.

For the 17/3 method to work, you need some fairly specialized spells:

• If it scales at a cap lower than 20, it generally works better as pure because +1 caster level/max caster level > 6% critical + ~20 spellpower for a level 30 gear set.
• If it's a Druid spell with a 20+ maximum caster level, it works better as pure.
• If it's a non-Fire/Force/Light spell, it works better as pure.

So let's review the spells which match the criteria to justify 17/3:

• Arcane Pulse: There are at least 4 single target spells better than this that Druids already have so it's tough to find time to cast it in your rotation.
• EA SLAs: Useful for saving some SP, but generally weaker than existing Druid spells (and for single targets, weaker than existing Druid SLAs).
• Ruin/Greater Ruin: Do decent damage, but nothing significantly beyond what you could already do, cost two feats and have relatively long cooldowns limiting them.
• Hellball: Generally terrible spell, but you're going to do comparable damage either way because AoV only affects one of four damage types.
• Flame Strike: Approximately the same either way, but generally supplanted by Firestorm
• Produce Flame: Approximately the same either way, but generally too weak to use unless you take Master of the Wilds (in which case pure is better)
• Wall of Fire: Normally not used in epics due to low damage, but roughly equivalent either way.
• Flaming Sphere: No one uses this for damage.
• Splinterbolt: In theory, does more damage as pure. In practice, getting 1/6th of the way to the next damage step probably isn't going to be helpful.
• Energy Burst: About 4.5% better as 17/3, but with a cooldown

Everything else? Pure > 17/3. In that 'everything else' is virtually every high damage spell you'll actually be casting.

I am not going to get into specifics because you don't seem to consider any of the benefits of aov in your discussion and use spells in your examples that would do MORE damage with 17 druid / 3 fvs and portray it like it's a disadvantage.

I broke down precisely where there would be an advantage for 17/3 over pure above. It's a short and mediocre list.

I think part of the problem is you just can't wrap your head around how important caster level is to a damage caster.

Let's say you cast Firestorm with 40% critical, 600 spellpower (from all sources in common), Scion of Fire, Scourge fully stacked.

On a 17/3 Druid, you'd be dealing 85.5 * (1 + .46 * 1.25) * (1 + 6.30) = 983 damage

On a pure Druid, you'd be dealing 103.5 * (1 + .4 * 1.25) * (1 + 6.1) = 1102.3 damage

Most of the remainder of the Druid fire/force/light spells - Body of the Sun, Sunbeam, Sunburst, Word of Balance, Fire Seeds, Fire Trap - have the same sort of pure advantage. All non-fire/force/light spells do better as pure since AoV doesn't improve them at all.

Getting back on to the top of the Op's thread - Fire Druid, the synergy between fire, light, druid, fvs aov is basically the 4-6% crit chance from aov+ the 10% crit chance increase from empyrean magic which is more synergistic to charge up with a fire/light/positive combo.

Empyrean Magic doesn't really have any more 'synergy' with 17/3 than with pure since it's relatively easy to stack and maintain.

Basically, by taking those three levels of AoV you're throwing away more than you're getting. You end up with less damage, less healing, lower DCs and lower spell penetration (admittedly, spell penetration isn't very important for a Druid). Your pet is also less durable and effective.

Now, certainly, if you get buried under an army of enemies and somehow manage to not die after each of them hits you 5 times, you can do better damage with your otherwise not-terribly-impressive Light damage spells. But given that your Light damage effects are way down the list without such a bizarre setup, this isn't actually much of an edge - you're just buffing the terrible parts of your rotation, not the good ones.

[slarden]

I didn't design the Druid spell set. The fact that the best single target damage spells - by an enormous margin - available to Druids are Cold-based is not my doing. This is true even on a Fire Druid. This is true even on your approach to a Fire Druid. Playing a "Fire Druid" doesn't mean you spitefully avoid casting your best spells because they're the 'wrong' element.

For the 17/3 method to work, you need some fairly specialized spells:

• If it scales at a cap lower than 20, it generally works better as pure because +1 caster level/max caster level > 6% critical + ~20 spellpower for a level 30 gear set.
• If it's a Druid spell with a 20+ maximum caster level, it works better as pure.
• If it's a non-Fire/Force/Light spell, it works better as pure.

So let's review the spells which match the criteria to justify 17/3:

• Arcane Pulse: There are at least 4 single target spells better than this that Druids already have so it's tough to find time to cast it in your rotation.
• EA SLAs: Useful for saving some SP, but generally weaker than existing Druid spells (and for single targets, weaker than existing Druid SLAs).
• Ruin/Greater Ruin: Do decent damage, but nothing significantly beyond what you could already do, cost two feats and have relatively long cooldowns limiting them.
• Hellball: Generally terrible spell, but you're going to do comparable damage either way because AoV only affects one of four damage types.
• Flame Strike: Approximately the same either way, but generally supplanted by Firestorm
• Produce Flame: Approximately the same either way, but generally too weak to use unless you take Master of the Wilds (in which case pure is better)
• Wall of Fire: Normally not used in epics due to low damage, but roughly equivalent either way.
• Flaming Sphere: No one uses this for damage.
• Splinterbolt: In theory, does more damage as pure. In practice, getting 1/6th of the way to the next damage step probably isn't going to be helpful.
• Energy Burst: About 4.5% better as 17/3, but with a cooldown

Everything else? Pure > 17/3. In that 'everything else' is virtually every high damage spell you'll actually be casting.



I broke down precisely where there would be an advantage for 17/3 over pure above. It's a short and mediocre list.

I think part of the problem is you just can't wrap your head around how important caster level is to a damage caster.

Let's say you cast Firestorm with 40% critical, 600 spellpower (from all sources in common), Scion of Fire, Scourge fully stacked.

On a 17/3 Druid, you'd be dealing 85.5 * (1 + .46 * 1.25) * (1 + 6.30) = 983 damage

On a pure Druid, you'd be dealing 103.5 * (1 + .4 * 1.25) * (1 + 6.1) = 1102.3 damage

Most of the remainder of the Druid fire/force/light spells - Body of the Sun, Sunbeam, Sunburst, Word of Balance, Fire Seeds, Fire Trap - have the same sort of pure advantage. All non-fire/force/light spells do better as pure since AoV doesn't improve them at all.



Empyrean Magic doesn't really have any more 'synergy' with 17/3 than with pure since it's relatively easy to stack and maintain.

Basically, by taking those three levels of AoV you're throwing away more than you're getting. You end up with less damage, less healing, lower DCs and lower spell penetration (admittedly, spell penetration isn't very important for a Druid). Your pet is also less durable and effective.

Now, certainly, if you get buried under an army of enemies and somehow manage to not die after each of them hits you 5 times, you can do better damage with your otherwise not-terribly-impressive Light damage spells. But given that your Light damage effects are way down the list without such a bizarre setup, this isn't actually much of an edge - you're just buffing the terrible parts of your rotation, not the good ones.

Through your use of bad numbers and one-sided examples I guess I will accept you will never learn.

[Xyfiel]

Getting back on to the top of the Op's thread - Fire Druid, the synergy between fire, light, druid, fvs aov is basically the 4-6% crit chance from aov+ the 10% crit chance increase from empyrean magic which is more synergistic to charge up with a fire/light/positive combo. Some of the other Aov things mentioned are really just bonuses. Be sure to get burnscar sash for heroic levels and legendary burnscar sash for level cap as this items stacks with almost all other fire items for fire/acid spellpower. The alignment and fire portion of consecration damage is boosted by fire which is significant since you can get a really high fire spellpower with burnscar sash.

If you do splash druid 18 druid / 2 fvs is another reasonable choice.

Good luck!

I already knew most of the mechanics(exception for which spells multi proc shiraldi) and gear type stuff. Like I mentioned earlier I was also considering splashing fvs and/or wiz. But this is good info for anyone else who sees the thread. Same thing with the continued discussion. I already have most of my decisions made but could help someone else.

[QuantumFX]

I’m a little late to this party, but put me down for Divine Crusader as well. The trick is to think in terms of “how do I best drop persistent AoE spells to kill all the things?”. Earthquake + Body of the Sun + Consecration/Crusade + Wall of Aggro + Castigation is good times.