paladin tank raid/reaper build?

[Jeraziah]

does anyone have any ideas on making a proper paladin raid tank build? I've got some ideas but i don't think i'll be good at making it imo. I just need more info.

[contantinos1990]

does anyone have any ideas on making a proper paladin raid tank build? I've got some ideas but i don't think i'll be good at making it imo. I just need more info.

I was thinking of an Aasimar pure pally. Sacred defender stance, Aasimar stance for 10mrr prr 10% hp. Sacred stance for 20% more hp. All the good stuff from sacred defender. Leftovers for KOTC.
Dps will be low but ok with khopesh, zeal, holy sword and the prowess filigree with haste boost twist from legendary dreadnaut.

[tsteigner]

I was thinking of an Aasimar pure pally. Sacred defender stance, Aasimar stance for 10mrr prr 10% hp. Sacred stance for 20% more hp. All the good stuff from sacred defender. Leftovers for KOTC.
Dps will be low but ok with khopesh, zeal, holy sword and the prowess filigree with haste boost twist from legendary dreadnaut.

for s&b Tanking build you might also want to consider Bastard-Sword for glancing blows and imo rather splash into Vanguard instead of KotC because a Tank needs to do some dps to hold aggro

[Jeraziah]

I was thinking of an Aasimar pure pally. Sacred defender stance, Aasimar stance for 10mrr prr 10% hp. Sacred stance for 20% more hp. All the good stuff from sacred defender. Leftovers for KOTC.
Dps will be low but ok with khopesh, zeal, holy sword and the prowess filigree with haste boost twist from legendary dreadnaut.

Alright thanks for the info man. I was actually thinking of going warhammer but i'll probably end up going for bastard sword again

[contantinos1990]

After some thought, Bastard swords is actually a good alternative to khopesh.
You can take the enhancement from Aasimar and save a feat.
Take Power attack at level 1
Cleave and Great cleave at level 3 and 6.
Quicken at 9.
Improved critical slashing at 12.
Shield mastery at 15
Improved shield mastery at 18.
Overwhelming critical at 21.
Two handed fighting at 24.
Improved Two handed fighting at 27.
Greater two handed fighting at 30.

Another idea I had was this. "Characters can increase an ability by one at levels: 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24 and 28." We usually end up increasing STR, but we only lose 3.5 dmg and 3.5 dcs if we level up CON instead.
We have 10% hp stance from Aasimar, a 20% hp increase from the sacred defender stance and another 20% hp increase from Sentinel. Maby it's actually better to level up CON.

[xveganrox]

Another idea I had was this. "Characters can increase an ability by one at levels: 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24 and 28." We usually end up increasing STR, but we only lose 3.5 dmg and 3.5 dcs if we level up CON instead.
We have 10% hp stance from Aasimar, a 20% hp increase from the sacred defender stance and another 20% hp increase from Sentinel. Maby it's actually better to level up CON.

There's a reason your main damage stat is so important -- you don't lose 3.5 damage, you lose 3.5 base damage. So for example, if you're a Paladin using Holy Sword with Improved Critical and Overwhelming Critical with a Drow Khopesh of the Weaponmaster, your crit profile is 2-14/x1, 15-18/x4, 19-20/x5 -- so that 3.5 base damage becomes [2 (17.5) + 4 (14) + 13 (3.5)]/20, or ~7 damage per hit. Anything that boosts melee power, hits multiple targets, or increases crit range or multiplier boosts that multiplicatively.

You could go for the best of both worlds by running a Dwarf with max con, just enough strength to qualify for feats, and through your weight around, although that would cost a lot of AP -- I think as much as the Aasimar ability. You'd get Dwarven Axe proficiency for free, though, and they're better than Bastard Swords.

[Hreasvalgir]

I'm playing a Dragonborn Paladin with my points mainly in Sacred Defender and Vanguard, and I feel like I have a pretty good blend of tankiness and damage. I use Bastard swords and Tower shields. I put enough points into Dragonborn to get the breath weapon for cone damage, and to raise my AC and prr. My mrr is a little low, though, usually a solid ten points lower then my prr, but having good saves can somewhat make up for that, i've noticed.

[Niminae]

This is a timely thread, because I've been considering converting a character in a static group into a tank since the group lacks one. We run R2, our Cleric is not very attentive to health bars, and I thought some supplementary healing from a Paladin plus concentrating the damage more might help out a lot.

My issue is that I've never run a tank before, and in looking through the Paladin forum I haven't seen any tanking builds. Maybe I didn't dig deep enough but it seems that all the Vanguard builds are really just DPS builds that happen to use a shield. They might kick a few points into SD but it almost always ends at Durable Defense.

Here's what I've come up with as a first draft. I'd appreciate any feedback. Since it is an Iconic I didn't pay much attention to the Feat order except to place Bastard Sword early so it can be swapped cheap if I find a better Kopesh or a Dwaxe. The same for skills. And I've got to run an Iconic since the group is at 20th and I can't catch up with just an Otto's Box alone from 1st. On Enhancements, Sacred Shield Mastery III seemed like a "must have" in order to overcome (a little) the horrible dodge cap while using a tower shield. And then I just went with what looked like good defenses in SD and tried to get some DPS out of Van so when I'm solo farming in between our group sessions I can kill some things.



Kris S&B Paladin Tank
19/1 Paladin/Fighter
Lawful Good Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter . . . . 6. Paladin . . . .11. Paladin . . . .16. Paladin
2. Paladin. . . . .7. Paladin. . . . 12. Paladin. . . . 17. Paladin
3. Paladin. . . . .8. Paladin. . . . 13. Paladin. . . . 18. Paladin
4. Paladin. . . . .9. Paladin. . . . 14. Paladin. . . . 19. Paladin
5. Paladin. . . . 10. Paladin. . . . 15. Paladin. . . . 20. Paladin


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . 18. . . .+6. . . .4: STR
Dexterity . . . 10. . . .+6. . . .8: STR
Constitution. . 14. . . .+6. . . 12: STR
Intelligence. . 10. . . .+6. . . 16: STR
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: STR
Charisma. . . . 16. . . .+6. . . 24: STR
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: STR

Skills
. . . . . F .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P
. . . . . 1 .2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 2 .3 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Intim . . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Heal. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 .1 .1 .2 .2 .2 .3 .12
Balance . . . . ½. ½. ½. ½. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
UMD . . . 2 . . ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. 11
Jump. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ½. ½. . . . . . . .1
Tumble. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .½ .½ . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .12 .4 .4 .4 .4 .4 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .6 .6 .6 .6 .6 .6


Feats

.1. . . . : Shield Mastery
.1 PDK. . : Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword
.1 Fighter: Power Attack
.3. . . . : Two Handed Fighting
.6. . . . : Improved Two Handed Fighting
.9. . . . : Improved Critical: Slashing
12. . . . : Precision
15. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
18. . . . : Greater Two Handed Fighting
21 Epic . :
24 Epic . :
26 Destiny:
27 Epic . :
28 Destiny:
29 Destiny:
30 Epic . :
30 Legend :

.2 Deity. : Follower of: Silvanus
.7 Deity. : Blessing of Silvanus


Spells

Paladin

1. Lesser Restoration, Lionheart, Seek Eternal Rest, Divine Favor
2. Resist Energy, Angelskin, Remove Paralysis, Bull's Strength
3. Magic Circle Against Evil, Prayer, Cure Moderate Wounds, Remove Curse
4. Holy Sword, Zeal, Death Ward

Enhancements (80 AP)

Vanguard (46 AP)

• To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II, Vicious Shield II
  1. Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III
  2. Brutality III, Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III, Melee Power Boost III
  3. Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark, Shield Riposte III
  4. Shield Charge III, Myrmidon's Edge III
  5. Shield to the Face, Disorienting Smash III, Shield Charge III, Armored Strength

Sacred Defender (34 AP)

• Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense, Divine Righteousness
  1. Extra Lay On Hands III, Durable Defense III, Sacred Armor Mastery III
  2. Bulwark Aura III, Resilient Defense III, Sacred Shield Mastery III
  3. Inciting Defense III, Tenacious Defense III
  4. Reinforced Armor III, Swift Defense, Hardy Defense III

[cru121]

.1 PDK. . : Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword

Can't Paladins gets Bastard Sword proficiency for free from a deity feat?
http://ddowiki.com/page/Favored_by_Helm

[Enoach]

For race I'm still testing out the races as I do racial lives.

Currently in Dragonborn - Advantage here is that it has a bonus to both Strength and Charisma with sacrifice in Dexterity - Now the Dexterity penalty is not as bad when you consider Heavy Armor and Tower Shield's Max Dexterity Bonus. Additionally it has a racial HP/Healing Amp line and Hate boost

It is a solid choice.

I enjoyed the Purple Dragon Knight for these reasons

1. The Sword focus
2. The concept that if Charisma is higher then Strength you get your Charisma Bonus added to your Tactical feats - With Vanguard Shield bash abilities this give you some CC options
3. Benefits of being human - healing amp and extra feat and extra skill point per level
4. Can use Helm as the Deity - This grants Bastard Sword Proficiency without feat and benefits from the sword focus of the PDK

The downside is if you want to go 20 Paladin you need a minimum of LR+1 to remove the Fighter Level. So it can be "expensive". However, I found it was worth it.

My next racial lives will be as an Aasimar so I'll find out if the "other" LoH options is more beneficial then the enhancements in the Sacred defender.

----
As a note I generally build my paladin with a Charisma Focus, use Swords - Including Long Swords which is not as powerful but also does not cost.
41 to 42 points in Sacred Defender
Points in Vanguard to get the Shield Smash and Stun enhancements
KoTC points to get extra smites and first tier of Divine Might (30 second boost to strength for times you need to boost strength for things like Levers or avoid strength damage)
Points in Racial for defensive, attribute (when charisma is an option) and healing amp or AC boost and Hate enhancements.

---
@Niminae - I would not recommend a starting strength of 18 on a PDK paladin (or any paladin tank build). Instead start with a 14/16 and use the saved points to boost Intelligence to 12 and Wisdom at 10
I also would recommend Helm for the Bastard Sword Proficiency over Silvanus which is a Maul focus deity
Also, Power Attack and Precision cannot be active at the same time - with limited feats it would be better to pick one

[Captain_Wizbang]

Ive played S&B Pally's in every way except Aasimar. And after countless years of frustration, that might be my last effort, (I doubt it though)

Unfortunately, S&B gives up way too much in DPS. And the gained CC is situational at best. What are you trying to do? get aggro & turtle up? Or get aggro and contribute w/ melee dmge?

It's very hard to get a proper balance of the 2.


Defensive build; Put everything into defense and intim, half the lvl up's in str 1/2 in con. Race, human for free feat & heal amp, Dwarf because its a blast to play, Dragonborn for a cha based (my last choice).

Offensive build, human strength everything. Keep cha at a min of 12 at creation for DM

Iconics as an S&B pally can be amazing, but again, you have to decide which way to play the toon.

I don't include completionist in any way, as I don't have one, never will. I DO have +7's Supreme Tomes on my 4 melees. So Im always going to be short on my #'s. Who cares?

Now let's talk about having FUN w/ an S&B intim Pally. I said FUN. Vanguard and T5 Shield Rush is an absolute gas. IF YOU CAN get in front of the ranged and lock toons, lol, I gave up running full speed ahead to use my CC abilities because of what I just said. In this case, I prefer Human strength build.

If you are grouped with people that will let you do your job, and let assassins do their job, and trappers do their job, you'll have fun. If the pew pews and zergers won't, then leave and find similar players. So your static group would be fun for the S&B human basty intimitank T5 Vanguard


Human, 18/12/16/ and the rest in cha for divine might. The +7's make up the diff. Free feat Bastard swd,

Power attack until you reach epic, then swap for precision.


Want to go THF? Its fun as well, and the synergies w/ str/cha are really nice, but are more difficult to balance. Gear has big part in that.

Now the min/maxers here will rebut me, but that's fine, I dont group with them.

[Niminae]

Can't Paladins gets Bastard Sword proficiency for free from a deity feat?
http://ddowiki.com/page/Favored_by_Helm

Yes. But I figured that I'd need to be swapping between Bastard Sword, Khopesh, and DWaxe, so I'd only get the benefit if I was on a Bastard sword. Plus the permanent +4 natural armor bonus to AC from Silvanus looked attractive, both since it's not a 6 seconds per Religious Lore feat and since it's a direct contribution to tankiness. 4 AC isn't a lot, but as something I can just turn on and forget it seemed to be the better option. Plus the game is all about stacking things up until they reach relevant levels. I just hope that 4 Natural Armor is untyped so it stacks, but now that I think about it Natural Armor is already typed... If it doesn't stack then Silvanus is a lot less attractive choice. Does anyone who has run a maul build know?

---
@Niminae - I would not recommend a starting strength of 18 on a PDK paladin (or any paladin tank build). Instead start with a 14/16 and use the saved points to boost Intelligence to 12 and Wisdom at 10
I also would recommend Helm for the Bastard Sword Proficiency over Silvanus which is a Maul focus deity
Also, Power Attack and Precision cannot be active at the same time - with limited feats it would be better to pick one

Can you share your reasons?

Here's mine:
- I looked at Cormyrian training and didn't think I could spare the AP. I tried, because I'd like to be able to turn effectively and more CHA would help there. It also locks me more into Bastard swords, since nether Khopesh nor SWaxe can get the benefit. If I try again I'd definitely go Helm for the free BS feat since I'd be locked in anyway.
- I'm pretty happy with my skill levels so more Int doesn't seem to offer much. I could pick up a few more Heal?
- I've run Paladins before (just not trying to be tanky at all, 2hf falchion all the way) and never needed more than 8 starting Wisdom. I never run out of mana and the issue of having to chug Owl's Wisdom pots at low levels just to memorize and cast isn't an issue for an Iconic who can use gear plus my +6 tome to bring me up to a comfortable level.
- The PA + Precision is just something I've done before that even though I'm spending 2 feats and can only use one at a time provides some flexibility. But I could lose one or the other. Which would you lose and what would you pick instead? And what would you suggest if I move to Helm and free up another feat slot? Empowered Healing and or Quicken seem attractive.

A tempting stat change seems like more Con and less Str, but you didn't suggest that.

I've already broken the capstone but taking another level of Ftr, or anything else, really hurts the spell slots.

Thanks for the feedback!

EDIT: For more info on the character it is a 2nd life with 1 Rogue PL. If I make this change to Paladin I'll pick up an Arti PL. So not a lot of synergy going on there. It has very little ED progress, just 4 ranks in LD. I'd work through 4 ranks of GMoF if I made this move so I could start in US.

Edit part 2: And now I'm noticing that I statted as if I was taking Divine Might, and then didn't go into KotC at all... :-(

[Captain_Wizbang]

One other thing to consider are tactics. Trip, stun etc... those really help w/ cc, but again you have to build for it. And if you're going vanguard, they stack bonus'es & it helps a lot.

I played w/ an S&B/ THF build, rush into mob, intim, switch to great sword and lay waste. Works great in heroics, you can hold a lot of agro, but your post is for reaper raid tank.

so all of my info is worthless.

The newer orb/shield builds can hold reaper aggro better from what Ive seen.

[Enoach]

...---
@Niminae - I would not recommend a starting strength of 18 on a PDK paladin (or any paladin tank build). Instead start with a 14/16 and use the saved points to boost Intelligence to 12 and Wisdom at 10
I also would recommend Helm for the Bastard Sword Proficiency over Silvanus which is a Maul focus deity
Also, Power Attack and Precision cannot be active at the same time - with limited feats it would be better to pick one

[QUOTE=Niminae;6122456]...
Can you share your reasons?

Here's mine:

...
- I looked at Cormyrian training and didn't think I could spare the AP. I tried, because I'd like to be able to turn effectively and more CHA would help there. It also locks me more into Bastard swords, since nether Khopesh nor SWaxe can get the benefit. If I try again I'd definitely go Helm for the free BS feat since I'd be locked in anyway.

You are correct this does limit to Longswords and Bastard swords
There are actually more named longswords in DDO then the other swords. This is valuable in that the "golf bag" style equipping mentality gives you more options to pick the "best" weapon for the situation. As a Tank you are already swapping out DPS for Survivability so you do not want to skimp on maximizing having the best tool. You can drive a screw in with a hammer, but it is better if you use a screwdriver.

As stated the focus more on Charisma powers many Paladin abilities the Cormyrian training helps you reach good DCs for stun abilities and can also make trip an option which is something many melee overlook.

...
- I'm pretty happy with my skill levels so more Int doesn't seem to offer much. I could pick up a few more Heal?

You use Concentration, Intimidate, Heal, Balance, UMD, Jump and Tumble.

Jump is one of those skills that you can debate as it has a CAP and many ways to reach that cap without investment.

Other skills that I think are valuable Spot/Listen (just one of them) this is more so you can see those mobs trying to sneak in.

I also like skills like Bluff or Diplomacy - Diplomacy more because there are several places where this skill is valuable in NPC dialog and you are already ahead with Charisma skills. I like bluff to use for pulling mobs. Even as a tank you can use this to limit the fight to something the party can handle. Both are useful in dropping agro - remember as a tank you need to control agro, that means direct it to where you need it to be. Bluff also serves well when grouped with sneak attackers.

...
- I've run Paladins before (just not trying to be tanky at all, 2hf falchion all the way) and never needed more than 8 starting Wisdom. I never run out of mana and the issue of having to chug Owl's Wisdom pots at low levels just to memorize and cast isn't an issue for an Iconic who can use gear plus my +6 tome to bring me up to a comfortable level.

The point of the higher wisdom is less about spell availability or spell points. It is more about saves. At low levels having a higher will save avoids spells that can knock you out without killing you. While the -1 does not seem like a lot, I've seen it come back to bite me in the rear. Again as a tank you want to work towards not being sidelined.

...
- The PA + Precision is just something I've done before that even though I'm spending 2 feats and can only use one at a time provides some flexibility. But I could lose one or the other. Which would you lose and what would you pick instead? And what would you suggest if I move to Helm and free up another feat slot? Empowered Healing and or Quicken seem attractive.

Again, my point is you can't use both at the same time. Also, you are not taking any other benefits of PA. As a class that has limited feats and taking two feats where you can only use one, where both are pretty close in effectiveness seems like having something you may or may not ever use. Other feats could be used to improve defense or offense and be useful and not a "wall flower".

While either of Empowered Heal or Quicken are options, you might consider Improved Shield Bash as that helps you get more "Hits" in. Again as a Tank you are sacrificing DPS for survivability, what this does is gives you more times you hit helping generate more damage and contributing to your 'hate' generation. It also allows you to "turtle" and yet still "swing" which can be useful.

Additional note on Quicken I think you need to examine your casting patterns. Its main benefit is casting while under duress, but with a high PRR/MRR and less to be hit chance and the fact that Quicken does not work with scrolls means you may find the cost of this feat out weighs its benefits.

I myself am a Combat Expertise focus. But then again I focus more on tactical control then DPS.

...
A tempting stat change seems like more Con and less Str, but you didn't suggest that.

I've already broken the capstone but taking another level of Ftr, or anything else, really hurts the spell slots.

Thanks for the feedback!

As you have found the 8 wisdom to be enough, I've found that in many cases tank builds over-emphasize HP at the detriment of defensive abilities that would prevent losing HP. Next the cost vs benefit of the +2 con going from 14 to 16. vs the Cost vs Benefit of a little more Wisdom and Intelligence is

30 HP
+1 Fort save

vs

+23 Skill Points
+1 Will save
+Handful of spell points

[Niminae]

Take two:

Much more tank focused. It still lacks Quicken or Empower Healing. I'm not sure I even want or need Divine Might since with CKT it looks like if I use DM I lose the tactical bonus, and that applies to all of Stunning Blow, Stunning Shield, Dire Charge, Shield Charge, and even vanilla Trip. Thoughts on that?

I left a L2 and a L3 spell slot open because the builder doesn't show the addition of Raise Dead and Resurrection for taking Redemption.

Any feedback is appreciated!


Kris S&B Paladin Tank
19/1 Paladin/Fighter
Lawful Good Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter . . . . 6. Paladin . . . .11. Paladin . . . .16. Paladin
2. Paladin. . . . .7. Paladin. . . . 12. Paladin. . . . 17. Paladin
3. Paladin. . . . .8. Paladin. . . . 13. Paladin. . . . 18. Paladin
4. Paladin. . . . .9. Paladin. . . . 14. Paladin. . . . 19. Paladin
5. Paladin. . . . 10. Paladin. . . . 15. Paladin. . . . 20. Paladin


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .--------
Strength. . . . 14. . . .+6. . . .4: CON
Dexterity . . . 10. . . .+6. . . .8: CON
Constitution. . 18. . . .+6. . . 12: CON
Intelligence. . 10. . . .+6. . . 16: CON
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+6. . . 20: CON
Charisma. . . . 16. . . .+6. . . 24: CON
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CON

Skills
. . . . . F .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P .P
. . . . . 1 .2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 2 .3 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Intim . . 4 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Heal. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 .1 .1 .2 .2 .2 .3 .12
Balance . . . . ½. ½. ½. ½. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. . .11
UMD . . . 2 . . ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. ½. 11
Jump. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ½. ½. . . . . . . .1
Tumble. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .½ .½ . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .12 .4 .4 .4 .4 .4 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .5 .6 .6 .6 .6 .6 .6


Feats

.1. . . . : Shield Mastery
.1 PDK. . : Stunning Blow
.1 Fighter: Power Attack
.3. . . . : Two Handed Fighting
.6. . . . : Improved Two Handed Fighting
.9. . . . : Improved Critical: Slashing
12. . . . : Cleave
15. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
18. . . . : Greater Two Handed Fighting
21 Epic . : Great Cleave
24 Epic . : Bulwark of Defense
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea

.2 Deity. : Follower of: Helm
.7 Deity. : Ever Watchful


Spells

Paladin

1. Lesser Restoration, Lionheart, Seek Eternal Rest, Divine Favor
2. Resist Energy, Angelskin, Remove Paralysis, <Any>
3. Magic Circle Against Evil, Prayer, Cure Moderate Wounds, <Any>
4. Holy Sword, Zeal, Death Ward

Enhancements (80 AP)

Vanguard (41 AP)

• To the Fore!, Shield Combat I, Vicious Shield I, Shield Combat II, Vicious Shield II
  1. Shield Specialization, Shield Smash III
  2. Brutality III, Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III, Melee Power Boost III
  3. Follow Up III, Fatal Bulwark, Shield Riposte III
  4. Shield Charge III
  5. Disorienting Smash III, Shield Charge III, Armored Strength

Sacred Defender (32 AP)

• Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense, Divine Righteousness, Redemption, Glorious Stand
  1. Extra Lay On Hands III, Durable Defense III, Sacred Armor Mastery III
  2. Bulwark Aura III, Sacred Shield Mastery III
  3. Tenacious Defense III, Constitution
  4. Reinforced Armor III, Swift Defense, Hardy Defense III

Knight of the Chalice (4 AP)

• Slayer of Evil
  1. Extra Turning III

Purple Dragon Knight (3 AP)

• Damage Boost
  1. Cormyrean Knight Training

[Selvera]

In terms of a self-healing offtank (which I sort of believed is asked for by Nim above); I used to have a pretty cool charisma based pali 15/fvs 4/fighter 1 build that I got a pdk/paladin pastlife on two of my characters with. The basis of the build was heavy armor, tower shield, lots of heal amp and prr and self healing through Ameliorating strike. I would swap the build between KotC T5s and LD destiny for cleaves/immunities/damage when needed, and SD T5s with US destany for HP/AC/full intimitank mode.

However; since Ameliorating Strike was significantly nerfed for all builds, I'm not sure if said build is as viable as it once was. (It used to heal for 90 average base healing every 15 seconds, now it's down to 60 every 12 seconds. In comparison, the heal spell is 150 base healing with worse spell scaling, and cure critical wounds is 42 base healing).

If you're looking for a build that can tank some higher-reaper stuff and don't worry about dps or self healing as much; I would strongly suggest not doing a 1 level of fighter splash. Either do a 4 level splash to stack up AC (even better with wizard/sorc) or stay pure and get the core 18/capstone of sacred defender for the +20 PRR, +30 HP, and other benefits.

As mentioned; if you're looking to tank or offtank as a pdk paladin; you should probably use shields and b-swords; which means the helm deity. Sylvannus is a dps deity for 2 handed fighting.

[Niminae]

Bah, I didn't see your response when I posted my second go-around. Thanks for the input!

You are correct this does limit to Longswords and Bastard swords
There are actually more named longswords in DDO then the other swords.

I have a decent number of longswords since my main started as a S&B Warpriest of the Sovereign Host. A horrible build both then and now, but I did collect a pile of longswords as a side effect, and the ones that weren't BtC can be shared around.

As stated the focus more on Charisma powers many Paladin abilities the Cormyrian training helps you reach good DCs for stun abilities and can also make trip an option which is something many melee overlook.

This time around I did fit that in.

You use Concentration, Intimidate, Heal, Balance, UMD, Jump and Tumble.

Jump is one of those skills that you can debate as it has a CAP and many ways to reach that cap without investment.

Well I put 1 point into Jump, so... :-P

I do see the value of your other skill suggestions, I just don't think I can be all things. A solid Intim and decent UMD is a good return on a high Cha. UMD is less valuable for a divine though, so I might see about swapping some of that out.

The point of the higher wisdom is less about spell availability or spell points. It is more about saves. At low levels having a higher will save avoids spells that can knock you out without killing you. While the -1 does not seem like a lot, I've seen it come back to bite me in the rear. Again as a tank you want to work towards not being sidelined.

As you have found the 8 wisdom to be enough, I've found that in many cases tank builds over-emphasize HP at the detriment of defensive abilities that would prevent losing HP. Next the cost vs benefit of the +2 con going from 14 to 16. vs the Cost vs Benefit of a little more Wisdom and Intelligence is

30 HP
+1 Fort save

vs

+23 Skill Points
+1 Will save
+Handful of spell points

That's a good perspective on the benefits. I'll give it some thought. I could drop to a 16 Con and boost Int+Wis without becoming a glass cannon. :-P

Thanks again!

[Niminae]

In terms of a self-healing offtank (which I sort of believed is asked for by Nim above);

Sort of. As I said the cleric in the static group isn't the best at watching health bars, so I figured a Paladin could both tank and focus the damage on just one character, plus throw a LOH as needed for backup heals. I wasn't thinking self heals so much, but on R2 a LOH will probably do me well. Oh, and I can take Deathward for party buffs since for reasons I've never understood the Cleric does not bring it.

If you're looking for a build that can tank some higher-reaper stuff and don't worry about dps or self healing as much; I would strongly suggest not doing a 1 level of fighter splash.

It's not so much a splash as it is the required 1 FTR for a PDK. And I'm not feeling like buying a +1 LR, so I have to live with the consequences of my frugality and work around the requirement. We just run R2 so it's not like I need to be optimized to the max to make things work. Even without a tank our rag-tag collection of mostly 1st life and undergeared characters is managing R2 pretty comfortably. I am just considering TRing my Arti into a tank for the reasons given above. I am a decent amount of our dps but we recently had a member drop out and the replacement came with a mechanic rogue, so I'm not needed for trapping any longer and he brought significant dps so that defrays the loss of the arti dps.

[Selvera]

It's not so much a splash as it is the required 1 FTR for a PDK. And I'm not feeling like buying a +1 LR

Yeah I understand that; quite reasonable; but if you're already locked into 1 fighter level; why not take 3 more and go AC stacking through SD/SD trees? You would only lose 1 4th level spell (deathward, I guess you explained why you want that ), and gain the option to get probably something in the order of +40 AC (if both builds respec to the tankiest they can be).

*Other penalties is 1 remove desease, cha cap to saves lowered to +50 all saves (110 cha) from +59 all saves (128 cha); a few lower level spells and lay on hands healing reduced from 29 x Cha to 26 x Cha. All fairly minor penalties in my book. Other benefit is +2 feats.

[FuryFlash]

As I said the cleric in the static group isn't the best at watching health bars, so I figured a Paladin could both tank and focus the damage on just one character, plus throw a LOH as needed for backup heals.

Since you won't be LRing that extra fighter level out of your character, you should consider multiclassing a bit and making a standard AC tank build (15/4/1). In your case this would be:
15 Paladin
- 4th level spells
- Strong LoH
- SD t5 available
- Saves
- SD 50% armour boost
4 Fighter
- 3 bonus feats
- StD 50% armour boost
- Tower Shield proficiency
1 Wizard
- 1 bonus casting feat (quicken?)
- EK 10% armour boost
- Shield/Jump spells

This might be less DPS, but would significantly increase your defenses, particularly in epics if you're doing endgame tanking. All of those stacking AC bonuses can work together to give a working endgame AC. If you don't mind losing the wizard bonus feat you can do Sorcerer instead, which should give you better spell points with your higher charisma.