U39 Preview 1: War Soul & War Priest Revamp

[moo_cow]

So it's still very poor dps wise? A little bit of double strike, a +3w attack and a crit multiplier? Anything else?

Absolute ****

[edrein]

This is true of this tree in a vacuum, but a t5 warpriest is going to be better offensively if they take war domain and get +1 crit m/r. A 5t warsoul is in a significantly weaker place offensively even with this tree because you're only getting +1 crit multiplier.

When you consider in war domain it's really hard to see the advantage of going FVS as t5 war-tree melee divine.

The advantage War Soul has is more HP (300HP bonus at 30), and the options of CHA/WIS to hit/damage. They also get the deity weapon feats for free. But this is only an advantage in the case of Sylvanus and Vol for the +5 hit/dam. Vol could be thrown out in calculations because its viability as a religious weapon is entirely propped up by Vistani. And Sylvanus is iconic.

That HP is moot given both War Priest and War Soul will still arguably die the same as there's no other disconnect between them. And in Reaper 300HP isn't much.

[Silverleafeon]

Tree only. We might change the name of the enhancement to reflect the new difference.

Sounds good.

There was some call for Righteous Might being represented, you could consider that name?

Perhaps Divine Ultra Power for a name?

[slarden]

Are divine presence and divine will being eliminated? I see only divine might and no notes under the war soul section.

[glmfw1]

Goals:

• Push Warpriest to have more defense than War Soul
• Push War Soul to have more offense than Warpriest

Cleric (Warpriest) Only:

• NEW: While wearing Heavy armor, you gain +10 PRR, +10 MRR, +10 AC, and +50% to threat generation with melee and ranged attacks.
• Divine Power is now 1AP.

Favored Soul (War Soul) Only:

• NEW: Divine Champion: While wearing Medium armor, you gain +5% Doublestrike, +5% Doubleshot, +5 to confirm critical hits and critical hit damage (before weapon multipliers)
• Divine Power remains at 2AP. It now also grants a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Multiplier with weapons.

I guess you guys didn't play much 3.5 and before? Clerics weren't as good as the prime fighting classes but they were good at offense. The War Priest Tree was the means to achieve this, but you seem to have gone with "meh - who cares if melee clerics remain underpowered?".
Why not just make Divine Power 2 ranks for both trees, with the Criticals in Rank 2.
Or is this a move to suck any flavour from Deity options and force Clerics who want to be competent in combat to choose a single domain that has a Level 5 ability that's fairly pointless if you are using your deity's favoured weapon, then drain their SP (of which they have fewer of than FvS do) to get their crits?

[droid327]

Goals:

• Add ranged support to these for Silver Flame builds

• Smite Foe is now a Multiselector with a Melee and Ranged version.

• Replaced with: Radiant Flourish (multiselect melee/ranged): +1/2/3[w] attack, adds 1d6/2d6/3d6 Light Damage that scales with 200% of (higher of Melee or Ranged Power). Small chance to blind non-Boss enemies with no save. 6 second cooldown.

• New: Silence the Wicked (multiselect melee/ranged):
• +1/2/3[w], affected enemy can't cast spells for 4 seconds.
  • Ranged: 20/18/15 second cooldown.

Do these work with RXBs too? Should they, if not?

While RXBs arent a favored weapon, Radiant Flourish basically looks like a Light version of Caustic Strikes in BE, and it would certainly open up an interesting possibility for War Domain Warpriest/Arti or Mechanic as a tanky, healing repeater build. Unless Ameliorating Strike would do triple heals and that would be considered too powerful?

[edrein]

I guess you guys didn't play much 3.5 and before? Clerics weren't as good as the prime fighting classes but they were good at offense. The War Priest Tree was the means to achieve this, but you seem to have gone with "meh - who cares if melee clerics remain underpowered?".
Why not just make Divine Power 2 ranks for both trees, with the Criticals in Rank 2.
Or is this a move to suck any flavour from Deity options and force Clerics who want to be competent in combat to choose a single domain that has a Level 5 ability that's fairly pointless if you are using your deity's favoured weapon, then drain their SP (of which they have fewer of than FvS do) to get their crits?

That was lost in translation; somewhere along the line where warlocks have melee abilities such as Hideous Blow, Eldritch Glaive, and Eldritch Claws. But hey we can totally create this strange aura DPSer. /sarcasm

In general, I agree this is a problem. After having put in a lot of feedback on the subject, particularly back during the original domains discussion, I feel like this is a lost cause. Somewhere between your fellow players not wanting to see clerics shine as offensive power houses (lacking on the defenses) and the prevailing idea that clerics should exist as heal bots for the party, and a strange form of dev apathy you most likely aren't going to see many changes to align clerics more towards their tabletop counterparts.

[Tilomere]

The other domains are best served by staying pure or almost pure.

I've been happy multiclassing air, multiclassing death, multiclassing luck, multiclassing destruction, and I don't know where the build is but also multiclassed chaos+divine healing on a warlock for more heroic party support.

Well, I wasn't entirely happy with destruction, but that was because I didn't know at the time to include DC casting into the build. If I went back I would lay waste with destruction/barb multiclass.

It's taken me a lot of iterations to perfect it, but I'm really happy with that death build.

[edrein]

I've been happy multiclassing air, multiclassing death, multiclassing luck, multiclassing destruction, and I don't know where the build is but also multiclassed chaos+divine healing on a warlock for more heroic party support.

Well, I wasn't entirely happy with destruction, but that was because I didn't know at the time to include DC casting into the build. If I went back I would lay waste with destruction/barb multiclass.

Almost every one of those builds is sub 3 cleric (No, we're not counting Luck Domain). Which proves my statement; for the melee centric domains (Destruction withstanding) all of them are best suited to go high cleric.

Almost all of those are going be forced to splash the remaining 6+ levels (depending on the domain) on another class to pick up crits. Some of those splashes don't manage that obviously. War Priest should at the bare minimum provide a +1 threat range boost in either the Level 12 core or the T5. It doesn't need to be threat and multiplier. Although War Soul is going to need a multiplier since we're using War Domain as the strawman as to why everyone else should suffer.

I dislike the logic that we should punish pure/near pure clerics simply because they didn't take War Domain over Strength, Destruction, etc. And expecting that they should by virtue, of not picking War Domain, multiclass to pick up crits to round out their builds.

[Ausdoerrt]

I had that idea scrapped several times, maybe the next one will be realized

I actually played it last life on my main, and it was baaad. Well, not "horrible" bad, but not particularly stellar.

With the changes, it may make it worthwhile. The new anti-magic enhancement should be great for an archer.

[Vish]

Ya, I've given up on clerics
When I came back couple years ago,
I was all, where are the clerics
My old main was a cleric
He was supposed to be a fighting cleric
But then I turned him into a silver flame bow aa cleric
Had to mc with ranger to get aa
Because a cleric with paralyzer is great cc
But these changes are supposed to help silver flame
Ya some flavor, but nowhere near what you get to mc
I mean, I even named my guild the silver flame jokers,
But the joke is on me
Just like the changes in this tree
The joke is on the clerics
I used to be all guns ho about a pass
That they would revitalize clerics
But no, they still suck even after domains
I can heal just as well on my warlock running in ea
What with cocoon and a mass moderate and 500 pos
I can cover the bases, and bring dps

Other than nuker clerics, which are in a decent place in the new meta,
I don't see melee or ranged clerics being of much worth
Still have to multiclass to get better trees
Ya, I was hoping for something op, that would bring ppl back to clerics
But I just don't see it
And now they're thinking of moving divine might to tier2
How nice, let's nerf the splash
Ya, I've given up
I haven't played vish in over a year
It's just god awful boring playing a suck it up cleric
So I've got nothing to add here really
I won't play anything that uses warpriest
ESP not for silver flame ranged ideas
Unless an elf for aa, but that's lotta racials
If you're not going at least 17 for implosion,
I just don't see any merit for fighter clerics
They just don't serve
I'm just so saddened that a part of the trinity can't be better
I'd be better off tr vish into warlock,
Than suffer as a cleric
I just so wanted clerics to be a building block
But now looks like they'll never be more than tier2
Keep em as dedicated healers
A few ppl will play support
Just not me, anymore

[Ausdoerrt]

Just accept that the game's changed. Nobody plays / needs "pure support" anymore. You are now expected to contribute more than just heals.

Also, there's not really a "trinity" model in DDO, never have been.

Finally, giving one class "something op, that would bring ppl back" would just make power creep worse.

[Vish]

Trinitys always been there
You just don't remember the old days
I remember when you would wait for a cleric
But that's buried in the past
There is no need for clerics now
Other classes can cover just as well
And for needing op
It's like if you build it they will come
I mean, healers are needed more than evar now with reaper
But it's just not going to happen
But warlocks rule

[Silverleafeon]

D&D lore

D&D (red / blue book) introduces Clerics as being able to wear plate type armor but limited to blunted weapons (mace and club).

Later D&D introduces Favored Souls wearing medium armor along with bonuses to weapon damage.



It is pretty easy to see the D&D lore being used for the decision to make Warpriest more defensive while War Soul is more offensive themed.


Placing bet with myself that this thread will have more posts in it than Beacon and AoV threads combined.
Will be interesting to see?

[Sormiron]

I see no changes to the righteous weapon line except t5. I guess that means it is still +1 enhancement bonus to weapons.

Enhancement bonuses used to give +3 spellpower on your weapon if it was a spellcasting implement. This got changed with item changes and this system was removed. Currently the only way to get the +3 spelpower per enhancement bonus is to get Articles of Faith from the angel of vengeance tree. Articles of faith counts all the enhancement bonuses wherever they may come from, normal spellcasting implements doesnt and any other enhancements you may take doesnt change the implement bonus.

I do wonder if this isnt the time to atleast look over this as I do not think it was an intended change with the "new" item system. Otherwise I am not sure why it should remain +1 enhancment bonus instead +1dmg and hit. Except maybe for fvs who can gain something out of it.

[axel15810]

Cleric specific comments -

Implacable Foe - Reducing the cooldown helps it, a lot. The 10% damage buff is huge. Still, it's such a niche ability for a capstone. It's mainly a raiding ability. And the being close to the cleric requirement is harsh and not all that practical in a ton of content. I'd rather this be removed and replaced with something more generally useful to warrant going full 20 cleric. +2 to two different stats isn't all that important for a 20 cleric who is going to be mainly healing. I still don't see it worth going full 20.

Inflame - Still looks too expensive, if I'm reading this right. Certainly it's a better deal, but 6AP instead of 9AP as it was before is still really expensive. And the cooldown is longer as well? It's nice no longer being an action boost or having charges, but still doesn't seem worth the AP. 4 total AP would seem like a much more reasonable price point.

Magical Backlash moving to tier 3 - This is great. This and the tier 4 doublestrike makes me want to actually consider splashing in this tree again over knights of the chalice for a cleric/pally/fighter build.

Tier 4 10% Doublestrike - Again, this is great. This is the main thing I will be tempted to be splashing for in this tree.


Righteous Weapon Line - I'm really surprised you all didn't modify this at all. +1 enhancement bonus per tier is pretty weak. And why enhancement bonus? Why not go with an extra damage bonus of some kind per tier? It is odd and out of place for a melee tree line to be getting enhancement bonuses. And you still can't pick your favored weapon? Does it really have to be tied to race? I was hoping for something along the line of Kensei where you can actually pick your weapon. Tying it to race is just a bummer and restricts build diversity. And I don't see the benefit in doing so, I guess lore? But even so I think we've bent enough D&D lore at this point to warrant bending the lore here. Or is it for balance reasons? But I don't see giving more options making this overpowered in the slightest. Hope you all consider changing this. In its current form I can't see it being worth investing in at all.


Tier 5:
NEW: While wearing Heavy armor, you gain +10 PRR, +10 MRR, +10 AC, and +50% to threat generation with melee and ranged attacks.
Divine Power is now 1AP. - Why threat gen? Clerics aren't going to want that generally. It's a hindrance, melee clerics generally don't want aggro. The +10 PRR/MRR is nice, but not near enough to warrant giving up Aura in the RS tree.

Unless...You all consider moving Radiant Servant aura into tier 4 core in the Radiant Servant Tree as it should be, so clerics can actually consider taking some of the tier 5 warpriest stuff. You shouldn't have to choose between aura and tier 5 warpriest. Fact remains that if you aren't taking aura there just isn't enough of a reason to play a cleric in the first place as aura is the cleric's signature, exclusive, most defining, and best healing ability. If you're not dumping 32 points into Radiant Servant on a melee cleric for aura it's not worth playing a melee cleric at all because you're just playing a worse paladin in the ways that matter most. This is especially true on a melee cleric, because melee clerics are up front swinging their weapon beside traditional melee classes much more often than a caster clerics who generally are casting spells in the back lines well out of aura range for melees. So melee clerics get way more use out of aura as a a result as they are much more often in range of classes who can benefit from it.


So overall, good start. But you're gonna have to do more to entice players to go tier 5 warpriest and level 20 cleric for the warpriest capstone. Splashing in this tree seems like it might be worth it now soley due to the 2 changes in adding 10% doublestrike and moving magical backlash into tier 3, but going full Warpriest still doesn't seem worth it. And again. Please take aura out of tier 5 radiant servant and put it into core 4 radiant servant so the tier 5 stuff in the warpriest tree is actually an option worth considering for melee clerics. I can't stress that enough. It's a change that needs to happen so melee clerics aren't locked out of warpriest tier 5 by default.

I feel like I still have too many no brainer choices when building a melee cleric. It's such a no brainer on a melee cleric right now to go War domain, Silvanus PDK using mauls, 3-4 paladin level splash for sacred defender stance/divine grace, and to put 32 points in radiant servant for aura. And I don't think this new tree changes that. I'd like to see more build options for melee clerics that can compete with those choices. I want to see stuff to actually tempt me into going 18 or 20 cleric levels again on a build that wants to do both melee DPS and party healing.

I may add more feedback later on some other enhancements as my time permits.

[Steelstar]

SO: Divine Vessel.

This ability has a number of issues at the moment.

• It's largely uncontrollable
• It's somewhat unreliable in its ability to AOE
• It's centered around you, which is not great for the newly-added Ranged skills in this tree.

So we're tentatively replacing it with this in both trees (subject to change/balance, especially as this has had less testing than anything else here so far):

Divine Vessel: Multiselector (Melee or Ranged):

Passive: Your attacks generate a stack of Divine Conduit. When Divine Conduit reaches 25, all stacks are cleared and you gain one use of this attack.

Active: (Melee or Ranged) Favored Weapon Attack: Make an attack with +5(W) damage. Affected enemies are hit by a meteor, taking 1 to 4 Fire and 1 to 4 Light damage per character level. (Damage from the meteor is affected by Fire and Light Spell Power).

Shares its cooldown/cooldown timer with the Great Cleave feat. You may only gain a stack of Divine Conduit once every second.

If you have Implacable Foe, Divine Vessel will gain a charge upon reaching 20 stacks of Divine Conduit, instead of 25.

Some further info:

• The melee version is a Cleave. (The ranged one is single-target, but if you're using this you probably have Improved Precise Shot and will likely hit several enemies with it.)
• It'll be 2AP, but only one rank (unlike the previous version).
• This reuses the notion of building up stacks and meteors (as well as all of the behind-the-scenes parts of the existing ability), but gives you a beefy attack in the process AND lets you choose when to drop meteors.
• Every affected enemy gets hit with their own meteor. (...We're keeping an eye on performance there, so no promises that that'll survive. But it looks awesome.)
• Conversely: Using this ability requires you to use your Deity's Favored Weapon. This requirement is also being added to Radiant Flourish and Silence the Wicked.

[Steelstar]

Righteous Weapon Line - I'm really surprised you all didn't modify this at all. +1 enhancement bonus per tier is pretty weak. And why enhancement bonus? Why not go with an extra damage bonus of some kind per tier? It is odd and out of place for a melee tree line to be getting enhancement bonuses. And you still can't pick your favored weapon? Does it really have to be tied to race? I was hoping for something along the line of Kensei where you can actually pick your weapon. Tying it to race is just a bummer and restricts build diversity. And I don't see the benefit in doing so, I guess lore? But even so I think we've bent enough D&D lore at this point to warrant bending the lore here. Or is it for balance reasons? But I don't see giving more options making this overpowered in the slightest. Hope you all consider changing this. In its current form I can't see it being worth investing in at all.

With an Enhancement bonus, you are getting +1 to hit and damage per tier, on top of the bonuses to Hit and Damage with your Favored Weapon you're getting out of Deity feats. (Free to Favored Souls, optional for Clerics, but still).

Favored Weapon, in our current system of Deities, must be tied to Race. Sorry. We feel similarly frustrated with how that affects certain game systems, but without a complete overhaul of how Deities, Divines, and Favored Weapons work (both on a lore and systems level) that restriction can't be changed.

[Tilomere]

Do these work with RXBs too? Should they, if not?

While RXBs arent a favored weapon, Radiant Flourish basically looks like a Light version of Caustic Strikes in BE, and it would certainly open up an interesting possibility for War Domain Warpriest/Arti or Mechanic as a tanky, healing repeater build. Unless Ameliorating Strike would do triple heals and that would be considered too powerful?

I'm pretty sure you can TWF Dance of Death it now and that it also procs off the shield bashes.

[axel15810]

With an Enhancement bonus, you are getting +1 to hit and damage per tier, on top of the bonuses to Hit and Damage with your Favored Weapon you're getting out of Deity feats. (Free to Favored Souls, optional for Clerics, but still).

Right, I understand that there's a +1 hit and damage included per each +1 enhancement bonus. It's just odd that it is included in the form of an enhancement bonus instead of a direct damage bonus. Or some other melee/ranged direct bonus like +W damage or melee power. I guess with the changes Sormiron pointed out earlier in this thread which I wasn't aware of, it no longer has any casting benefits so I suppose it's the same thing as giving +1 hit/damage at this point, unless I'm missing something. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like when this was initially put into the tree it seemed to be in the form of an enhancement bonus so it could provide both caster and melee benefits. And with the tree being more of a straight melee/ranged one now that feels very odd and out of place to me that it remains in the form of an enhancement bonus. Very minor gripe though.

Favored Weapon, in our current system of Deities, must be tied to Race. Sorry. We feel similarly frustrated with how that affects certain game systems, but without a complete overhaul of how Deities, Divines, and Favored Weapons work (both on a lore and systems level) that restriction can't be changed.

Gotcha. That's too bad but I get it. Glad to hear it's not just lore reasons though. Hope you can change it at some point if it's not too time consuming to do so.