U39 Preview 1: War Soul & War Priest Revamp

[J-mann]

That's easy. Even with the gobs and gobs of MP Kensai's are not over performing.

Dont ya know if its not a caster its op. At least that seems to be tilos theme lately for who knows why.

[losian2]

It's interesting, because even with War Soul granting more DPS, in the version of the tree talked about in this thread War Souls still do consistently less damage than War Domain Warpriests. We're still working on further balance on our end.



I'll point you to this post, which should show up in the next Lamannia.

Maybe I'm the odd one out, but to me the 'cleave' triggered type approach just doesn't feel *right.*

Honestly I loved the way the ability worked previously _if it worked reliably!_

It would often only hit one target, or that target would die in the time it takes for the meteor thing to fall and then it hurts nothing, or it'd just not happen at all. The stacks had an awkard duration, especially in quests where you don't fight for 30+ seconds straight, and would fall off constantly.

I suppose there are other options - build up stacks that triggers a buff that gives a slightly-high chance to proc meteors on hits for a short duration? I mean, I dunno, honestly I think the stacks shouldn't have a timer, but also not be able to be "saved" as the charging up a cleave would suggest. You could prep for a tough fight by not making those last few swings, but such is the case for many abilities. And the biggest issue with it seemed to be how slow the meteor fell and, as such, how often stuff would die/not be hit at all, AE wouldn't trigger, or whatever else was going on with the effect! Or heck, maybe like a brief duration meteor aura chance like thunder cloud - build it up and it goes off and just starts dropping meteors all over randomly for a bit? As long as the damage output is solid it'd be super cool and thematically, building up and releasing a short-but-not-tiny duration of meteor splats all over, then charging it up again while being super appropriate aesthetically - some of that nice armageddon feel, unpredictable and righteous!

A charge-and-save cleave-slap-meteor just doesn't feel right to me.

[J-mann]

Maybe I'm the odd one out, but to me the 'cleave' triggered type approach just doesn't feel *right.*

Honestly I loved the way the ability worked previously _if it worked reliably!_

It would often only hit one target, or that target would die in the time it takes for the meteor thing to fall and then it hurts nothing, or it'd just not happen at all. The stacks had an awkard duration, especially in quests where you don't fight for 30+ seconds straight, and would fall off constantly.

I suppose there are other options - build up stacks that triggers a buff that gives a slightly-high chance to proc meteors on hits for a short duration? I mean, I dunno, honestly I think the stacks shouldn't have a timer, but also not be able to be "saved" as the charging up a cleave would suggest. You could prep for a tough fight by not making those last few swings, but such is the case for many abilities. And the biggest issue with it seemed to be how slow the meteor fell and, as such, how often stuff would die/not be hit at all, AE wouldn't trigger, or whatever else was going on with the effect! Or heck, maybe like a brief duration meteor aura chance like thunder cloud - build it up and it goes off and just starts dropping meteors all over randomly for a bit? As long as the damage output is solid it'd be super cool and thematically, building up and releasing a short-but-not-tiny duration of meteor splats all over, then charging it up again while being super appropriate aesthetically - some of that nice armageddon feel, unpredictable and righteous!

A charge-and-save cleave-slap-meteor just doesn't feel right to me.

Unpredictable means not worth it in 99.9% of cases. The ability needs to be able to be controled, and the new version is much suporior for that. The only issue I have is that the charge mechanic makes its cd quite a lot longer than 25 seconds.

[Tilomere]

I'm sorry but I feel like you're reading into that. There's nothing in the tree design that says, "Cast spells to CC and then beat down with the anemic DPS skeleton we've given you!" There's no DC bonuses, no tactics to DC effects, no stats to DC. Nothing here to support a hybrid play style in the slightest.

Just because you get the one off crazy multiclassed build like Tilomere's...

Soundburst itself lends support to any dps playstyle with helpless damage, and stripping away dex bonuses.

You are saying a cleric will not be able to effectively hybrid and use Greater Command (enchantment) or Soundburst (evocation) because they lack enhancement support. However this logic fails because even Divine Disciple which enhances spell casting has 0 DCs to Greater Command from enhancements, and Divine Disciple clerics typically choose Necro DC bonuses over evocation, so generally end up with 0 DC bonus to evocation Soundburst as well from enhancements.

If you look at the broader game design, casters are designed to cast without requiring specific DC bonuses from an enhancement tree. Even in the "spell casting" enhancement trees, the bonuses to DCs are relatively minor and generally 1-3 DC to generally a single school, while a caster generally successfully casts from multiple schools, so obviously doesn't need such enhancement tree DCs.

With that broader game design in mind, my builds aren't crazy. My builds are entirely as the game has broadly designed spell casting. Your belief that casting requires DC support from enhancements are what seems crazy to me, and what I thought a tempest casting in R10 would show you as moot. (That was supposed to be a kensai casting in R13, but no one had a heart to trade when I made it, and R13 doesn't exist yet.)

[slarden]

Soundburst itself lends support to any dps playstyle with helpless damage, and stripping away dex bonuses.

You are saying a cleric will not be able to effectively hybrid and use Greater Command (enchantment) or Soundburst (evocation) because they lack enhancement support. However this logic fails because even Divine Disciple which enhances spell casting has 0 DCs to Greater Command from enhancements, and Divine Disciple clerics typically choose Necro DC bonuses over evocation, so generally end up with 0 DC bonus to evocation Soundburst as well from enhancements.

If you look at the broader game design, casters are designed to cast without requiring specific DC bonuses from an enhancement tree. Even in the "spell casting" enhancement trees, the bonuses to DCs are relatively minor and generally 1-3 DC to generally a single school, while a caster generally successfully casts from multiple schools, so obviously doesn't need such enhancement tree DCs.

With that broader game design in mind, my builds aren't crazy. My builds are entirely as the game has broadly designed spell casting. Your belief that casting requires DC support from enhancements are what seems crazy to me, and what I thought a tempest casting in R10 would show you as moot. (That was supposed to be a kensai casting in R13, but no one had a heart to trade when I made it, and R13 doesn't exist yet.)

Soundburst shouldn’t really be in the discussion for a melee divine. Sure it;s possible to make it work at some level ranges some quest some enemies as a hybrid, but fort saves are incredibly high at end game for some enemies and you need to max out stat then look at all the things that make sense for a dc caster but not a martial build like artifact and quality dc bonuses. Feats like heighten, quicken, embolden, scion of air on a feat starved class.

your idea works at low levels due to grind inflation and stat inflation resulting in minimal investment needed to make it work, but at 30 the investment is too high to dabble in dc casting esp dc casting going against a fort save. The concept makes much more sense for a melee bard using enchantment cc which hits will saves that are much lower on average or even Druid with earthquake.

beyond that the concept is good for heoics, not so much at 30.

[Tilomere]

Regardless, one thing they could do to beef up the FvS side would be to move Arcane Warrior down to 28, so it doesn't conflict with dire charge anymore, then it could be charged up with an archon. And um, maybe warlock splashes

Another thing they could do is create a high level wisdom mace for clerics and Aasimar Scourge Iconics, to complete the Level 10 Scepter of Healing > Level 16 Forgotten Light > Level 23 Epic Forgotten Light > ?.

[Vish]

Has anyone ever seen a warpriest?

[edrein]

Has anyone ever seen a warpriest?

Outside of me attempting to play the tree? Never seen one in the flesh on Sarlona.

[Nubom70]

Since they decided to make some of the weapons realm/iconic-specific, instead of every actual DnD game on earth, they killed combinations that people would like to play.
You're better off just getting a weapon you like, and slotting any ruby augment in it to make it into an implement, instead of niching yourself into a crappy diety selection.

[TMTrainer]

Not going to lie, out of every single change suggested by both sides, there is still a huge elephant in the room that will undoubtedly make this rework pointless if it's not addressed.

And, that is to say, that the ONLY deity weapon worth taking is mauls. Sylvanus is the only deity who actually has real and powerful support for his favored weapon.

You guys need to look at every deity, rework every active and passive portion, and give Clerics/FvSs proper power in their deity choices and give them scaling power all the way up to 20 with each weapon. Basically, what I'm trying to say is every single Deity Feat at level 6 should be at the level of Sylvanus, and every level 12 and 20 feat should get a rework to bring power to both Clerics and FvS.

For example, Silver Flame should give a handful of free ranged feats to support Bow Builds... for example a level 1 Silver Flame should give what it gives right now and Precise Shot and Point Blank Shot, at level 6 it should give what it gives right now and a Manyshot that scales with your religious lore feats. At level 12, Silver Flame should give something like "Your ranged weapons have Disrupting" and at 20, ISP. To balance these free feats, the majority of your levels must be Cleric or FvS.

Basically, my point is you guys need to do something or there will be literally no incentive to use cleric for anything more than what it is currently being used for (for a melee build)... which is basically 6 levels for Sylvanus and some easy PRR.

...and you can't just rework a part of the system what a system that supports it is in arguably in a worse state.

[axel15810]

Not going to lie, out of every single change suggested by both sides, there is still a huge elephant in the room that will undoubtedly make this rework pointless if it's not addressed.

And, that is to say, that the ONLY deity weapon worth taking is mauls. Sylvanus is the only deity who actually has real and powerful support for his favored weapon.

You guys need to look at every deity, rework every active and passive portion, and give Clerics/FvSs proper power in their deity choices and give them scaling power all the way up to 20 with each weapon. Basically, what I'm trying to say is every single Deity Feat at level 6 should be at the level of Sylvanus, and every level 12 and 20 feat should get a rework to bring power to both Clerics and FvS.

For example, Silver Flame should give a handful of free ranged feats to support Bow Builds... for example a level 1 Silver Flame should give what it gives right now and Precise Shot and Point Blank Shot, at level 6 it should give what it gives right now and a Manyshot that scales with your religious lore feats. At level 12, Silver Flame should give something like "Your ranged weapons have Disrupting" and at 20, ISP. To balance these free feats, the majority of your levels must be Cleric or FvS.

Basically, my point is you guys need to do something or there will be literally no incentive to use cleric for anything more than what it is currently being used for (for a melee build)... which is basically 6 levels for Sylvanus and some easy PRR.

...and you can't just rework a part of the system what a system that supports it is in arguably in a worse state.

Yeah, agreed with a lot of this. I also mentioned this back on my post on page 3 of this thread. And it's not just Silvanus. There's still many no brainer build choices for melee cleric right now - War domain, Silvanus PDK using mauls, 3-4 paladin level splash for sacred defender stance/divine grace. I still don't see this new tree giving me any hard choices when it comes to my melee cleric. 18+ cleric levels for a melee cleric is just not worth it in this tree's current state. The changes did bring the tree to being good for splashing though, whereas before there was not even a good reason to even splash in warprest at all outside of divine might. But going full Warpriest should also be worth it and I still don't think it is.

Devs, are there going to be any changes to this tree based on feedback? Or are these trees as posted what we're going to see in the next update? Haven't heard anything for a while.

[edrein]

Yeah, agreed with a lot of this. I also mentioned this back on my post on page 3 of this thread. And it's not just Silvanus. There's still many no brainer build choices for melee cleric right now - War domain, Silvanus PDK using mauls, 3-4 paladin level splash for sacred defender stance/divine grace. I still don't see this new tree giving me any hard choices when it comes to my melee cleric. 18+ cleric levels for a melee cleric is just not worth it in this tree's current state. The changes did bring the tree to being good for splashing though, whereas before there was not even a good reason to even splash in warprest at all outside of divine might. But going full Warpriest should also be worth it and I still don't think it is.

Devs, are there going to be any changes to this tree based on feedback? Or are these trees as posted what we're going to see in the next update? Haven't heard anything for a while.

Other than pastlife purposes, why even bother with cleric? Paladins get the same religion feat at level 6, and holysword at 14. The tactics bonus of War Domain is moot as you have no abilities using tactics.

Given the lack of significant changes in the second preview, it's fair to say War Priest/War Soul are dead. Unless you're doing some sort of Falconry build.

[axel15810]

Other than pastlife purposes, why even bother with cleric? Paladins get the same religion feat at level 6, and holysword at 14. The tactics bonus of War Domain is moot as you have no abilities using tactics.

Given the lack of significant changes in the second preview, it's fair to say War Priest/War Soul are dead. Unless you're doing some sort of Falconry build.

Mainly aura and burst. Which is why in my opinion, melee clerics have to put 32 points in radiant servant for aura/burst or else you may as well play a paladin. If you don't invest a lot in radiant servant I don't see much of a point either. Which I posted a bit about earlier in this thread recommending aura to be moved to RS core 4 to provide more build options for warpriest so warpriests aren't by default locked out of their own tier 5. I don't understand the balance reasons why aura needs to be confined to radiant servant tier 5. Clerics aren't going to be overpowered if aura is available to builds that want to focus on divine disciple or warpriest. Aura + Burst is the main class exclusive feature of clerics, it should be available to cleric caster and cleric melee builds without them having to be locked out of the tier 5 in the caster or melee divine tree.

/end mini rant

Also cleric over paladin for some of the nicer cleric buffs/spells like heal, mass deathward, mass cures, quickened rez's. Although a lot of that can be substituted by gear/clickies/paladin spells and epic destinies to a large extent if you go paladin.

I would like to say warpriest could be a good option for a raiding focused character for implacable foe but as restrictive as the 10% party damage buff still is with the 3 minute cooldown and range refresh requirements I don't see it being worth it.