U39 Preview 1: Beacon of Hope

[Silverleafeon]

Even if the only scaling it is improving are abilities that are exclusively in that single tree of that single class?

Interesting. It'd be a much worse tree without it.

100% disagree with players who do not want epic scaling applied into enhancement trees.



There is way too little scaling into Epic of anything caster related in all the caster classes (save warlock).

Please continue scaling into Epic everywhere possible.


Metamagics for example provide a huge boost when acquired then nothing more.


If I were a Dev, would bring idea to table discussion of something like:

"How about considering changing how metamagics work by making them free to apply to all spells and using scaling effects that work well.

Such as: Maximize no longer costs spell points, but provides a metamagic bonus to all spellpower that is additive with other metamagics and multiplicative with all other spellpower bonuses. Possible off the top of my head increase of 10~25% spell power. Empower & Intensify would provide half as much. Empower healing would provide half as much but only apply to positive energy.

Advantages:
SLAs no longer become so important to trees as metamagics are applied to all spells.
Spellpower is scaling as the character progresses thru leveling process.
Better builds benefit more than inferior builds due to better equipment.
Spell usage and rotation becomes more varied among the player base.
Higher level non SLA spells strongly benefit and become more used.

Disadvantages:
Using Max & Emp on a low level heroic SLA becomes less powerful.
(Considering lower heroic is considered easy by many players this is less significant than one might believe)
Figuring and making the math work will take some thought.
There might need to be additions to the math, perhaps an epic scaling modifier along with a legendary cap boost.

Eschew materials could be free sp, just a feat tax.

Heightened would be free sp, making certain low level cc spells more likely to be cast.

Quicken would be free sp, dealing with the problem of concentration checks poorly scaling against epic damage.

Enlarge would be free sp, making players more likely to invest in many of the metamagic feats.


D&D lore uses increase in spell slots as the cost of metamagics, so the free sp cost does have some lore;
although unearthed arcana introduced the whole spell point system which complicates the lore.
Still lorewise, this likely could be ok.


It stops many of the "this sla is too powerful" or "this tree does not have as many slas as class x does...", etc...


Kind of wondering if the "surprise" has to do with metamagics (already dev reported to be in progess revamp), or epic destiny revamp (a bit too early likely after wiz/sor pass?, or challenge classes (without supporting trees), or expansion news, or something else.

So, my wildest theory on the subject would be to remove the problems of too expensive and not scaling in one fell blow, which obviously might be too wild for the devs to consider?




Pardon tangent, please continue with discussion of beacon tree.
Just highly object to any objections concerning epic scaling.

[GotSomeQuestions]

As it stands, there's no reason to take AoV to T5 and capstone over Beacon for a DC caster (see my feedback on that thread for more information).

We could discuss this further in the AoV thread, but I think it's pretty clear that the AoV tree is focused on light damage, not DC casting. There's a lot of players who want to play a nuking-focused Favored Soul, and AoV now lets them do that just fine. It was the de facto tree for all DC based Favored Souls up until now, but that's because it was the only tree for any casting Favored Soul. It doesn't have to be that way anymore.

I don't see what's wrong with letting DC casters live in the Beacon of Hope tree if they want to heal/buff and DC cast, rather than do light damage and DC cast. The former is an obvious choice for us at end game, but it's not obvious at all levels, and not for everyone. On easier difficulties and lower levels, players will gravitate towards AoV anyway for its damage SLAs. On harder difficulties and at higher levels, people will want the more powerful healing in Beacon, especially with the capstone letting the effects scale into epics (which is a really compelling capstone effect). We don't have to try to shoehorn DC casters into AoV just because it's the "casting tree" anymore.

[SirValentine]

100% disagree with players who do not want epic scaling applied into enhancement trees.

Are there any of those? I must have missed it.

There is way too little scaling into Epic of anything caster related in all the caster classes (save warlock).

Exactly my point. This is something that need to be addressed generally, not individually in only 1 of of 3 trees of 1 out of 14 of classes.

[Qezuzu]

I really do not like the mechanical design of the "allies ahead of you" healing.

For FvS builds that may want to splash this tree, but are more aggressive Frontline builds, this core enhancement might be too difficult to use. I generally dislike reducing build diversity like this.

For healing builds I play, which are also cc builds 100% of the time, I can forsee a lot if situations where a heal fails because I was facing away to deal with trash mobs.

Conal healing is a cool idea but for faster paced play I don't think it'd be very enjoyable. All other heal effects don't require facing the target.

[NabeGewell]

FIX ZEALOUS FAITH(T5 ANGEL OF VENGEANCE) TO ACTUALLY ADD CASTER LEVELS, IT'S BEEN 5 YEARS!!!!!

~
Regarding the bacon tree: it speaks as if it wishes to be a cleric, but nerfed, also ads sla's to compensate fvs' lack of spell slots, or spells in general. Once again, very little initiative to play and stay as this class or cleric instead of borelock.

[Sebastrd]

100% disagree with players who do not want epic scaling applied into enhancement trees.



There is way too little scaling into Epic of anything caster related in all the caster classes (save warlock).

Please continue scaling into Epic everywhere possible.


Metamagics for example provide a huge boost when acquired then nothing more.


If I were a Dev, would bring idea to table discussion of something like:

"How about considering changing how metamagics work by making them free to apply to all spells and using scaling effects that work well.

Such as: Maximize no longer costs spell points, but provides a metamagic bonus to all spellpower that is additive with other metamagics and multiplicative with all other spellpower bonuses. Possible off the top of my head increase of 10~25% spell power. Empower & Intensify would provide half as much. Empower healing would provide half as much but only apply to positive energy.

Advantages:
SLAs no longer become so important to trees as metamagics are applied to all spells.
Spellpower is scaling as the character progresses thru leveling process.
Better builds benefit more than inferior builds due to better equipment.
Spell usage and rotation becomes more varied among the player base.
Higher level non SLA spells strongly benefit and become more used.

Disadvantages:
Using Max & Emp on a low level heroic SLA becomes less powerful.
(Considering lower heroic is considered easy by many players this is less significant than one might believe)
Figuring and making the math work will take some thought.
There might need to be additions to the math, perhaps an epic scaling modifier along with a legendary cap boost.

Eschew materials could be free sp, just a feat tax.

Heightened would be free sp, making certain low level cc spells more likely to be cast.

Quicken would be free sp, dealing with the problem of concentration checks poorly scaling against epic damage.

Enlarge would be free sp, making players more likely to invest in many of the metamagic feats.


D&D lore uses increase in spell slots as the cost of metamagics, so the free sp cost does have some lore;
although unearthed arcana introduced the whole spell point system which complicates the lore.
Still lorewise, this likely could be ok.


It stops many of the "this sla is too powerful" or "this tree does not have as many slas as class x does...", etc...


Kind of wondering if the "surprise" has to do with metamagics (already dev reported to be in progess revamp), or epic destiny revamp (a bit too early likely after wiz/sor pass?, or challenge classes (without supporting trees), or expansion news, or something else.

So, my wildest theory on the subject would be to remove the problems of too expensive and not scaling in one fell blow, which obviously might be too wild for the devs to consider?




Pardon tangent, please continue with discussion of beacon tree.
Just highly object to any objections concerning epic scaling.

I've been thinking for a while that Metamagics should just be free, but this post includes a lot of detail and good reasoning with some really good ideas for new implementation. I fully support this. It's way past time DPS casting was useful past level 18.

[Lanadazia]

just gonna repost my posting, since i still think these ideas are great. some buff-mechanics with AT LEAST wall of healing would be really really cool! even if its just one hope effect per player per wall

I think it'd be faster to have a quick post about updates we've made since this posting; most of the last few days have been spent fixing bugs. Here's what's changed since this post went up:

• All of the Hope spells now last 18 seconds. (They keep their cooldowns as written, 6 seconds for the first three and 60 for Hope for Success).
• some more buffs on hope spells

hey steelstar. i don't think this is what we want in this tree. instead of ramping up duration on the spells and making them stronger, we'd like to see mechanics to apply those buffs on other ways but casting them

my suggestion earlier was, to let the hope buffs trigger on getting healed by that healing wall.
or adding that buff to a character you spellcrit-healed - that would be a cool idea!

or add a skill, that on activation, that does something like a radiant servant positive energy burst but without the heal and applies 2 random hopes to nearby allies. or another SLA that has a hitbox like a dragonsbreath or a cone. a healing mist/gust of wind sort of spell, that also adds random hope buffs

add the hope buffs ontop of cool skills like the healing wall, don't make it boring. tie the triggering effects to special interactions. spellcrit heals for example. or on activation of other stuff the FvS gets. dash through your allies with leap of waith to also buff them. or leave a trail of holy ground where you dashed over - all allies standing on top get a refreshing beacon/hope buff.

so many chances to add a unique and fun playstyle - yet you decide to go the "press button 1-3, wait 6 seconds, do it again" mechanics.
step up your game! so much potential is this tree!

make it more interactive!

any chance we can get something like this? i'd love to not feel like a human bot, pressing 4 keys and doing it all over again. if i had other options to apply those buffs to my party members, that'd be great, interactive and so much more fun.
i had alot of ideas, how to do this and i hope you consider implementing something like this, else this tree will be pretty boring to play
i see you try to open up some windows, where the caster can do something else - yet you're pretty sure expected to keep these buffs up on 2 partymembers, since its a 18 second buff with 6 second cooldown.
rather you make it aoe or give it any other mechanic to apply those buffs at random, or you make them exclusive to one party member, but ramp up the duration to like 5 minutes.
there are other buffs from enhancements in the game, that last 2 minutes and have 30 seconds cooldown - yet i could never be bothered to actually use them.

managing short-time buffs =/= playing the game. its just a bad design decision if you leave it this way.
please reconsider adding other mechanics to these short time buffs - like the cleric has that prr buff on healing an ally.
for more ideas see my quote

[Sebastrd]

It's really hard finding anything in this tree to get excited about.

Please change the deathward SLA to freedom of movement.

Divine Intervention from T5 Warpreiest/soul thematically fits a lot better here and would be a fine replacement for the much-maligned raise dead SLA.

Other than that, I think it's just the expected playstyle of the build that's lacking. It basically amounts to "follow your friends around helping them do cool things while you sit back and watch". While that's a valid, desirable playstyle for a very small minority of DDO players, I don't think it's enough to hang an entire enhancement tree on. It needs something a more.

Ideally, Beacon of Hope should be nigh-indestructible. Anytime the waste material hits the spinning turbine, the BoH should be the last man standing to get everyone back up and continue the fight. You should be the last HOPE to keep the quest alive. Just having some rez SLAs isn't enough to accomplish that; if you're no more survivable than anyone else with your medium armor and no tower shield or extra hit points and lackluster saves...what good are you. I'd suggest the following:

In the open spot at Tier 3 add:
Tower of Hope: On damage, you gain a stacking +3 sacred bonus to PRR and MRR. Stacks dissipate after 3 seconds. This stacks up to 3/6/10 times. Rank 3: You have proficiency with Heavy Armor and Tower Shields.

Replace either the raise dead SLA or Undying Beacon with:
Eternal Hope: Cost: 1/2 current hit points. For 1 minute, damage you would take depletes spell points instead of hit points and your Tower of Hope can stack any number of times. Your attack and movement speeds are reduced by 50%. Cooldown: 5 minutes

[elvesunited]

Hope for inspiration: +6 Skills at level 20
Hope for protection: +23 PRR / MRR at level 20
Hope for victory: +13 melee/ranged power +26 Universal spellpower at level 20

for 18 seconds / 6 second cooldown. Basically a very short term invisible buff. This fails on the most basic levels. It would not be fun to play spending your gameplay constantly giving out buffs that you'll never know if they made any real difference at all. And it makes no tactical sense. What's better a character doing damage or a character giving minor buffs to few other characters that are doing damage?

Hope for Success: +1 crit range and multiplier.

Better but the 60 second cooldown destroys it.

True Resurrection SLA, Raise Dead SLA, deathward SLA:

Favored souls are not so spell choice deprived that SLAs for divine spells that do not take advantage for the features that make SLAs good to cast makes any sense whatsoever.

And once you take all that out, there isn't enough enhancements left to sustain the enhancement tree.

[GotSomeQuestions]

Also, as others noted, some of the SLAs just aren't very cool. Deathward and Raise Dead have their uses, but no one looks at the tree and goes "oh wow I want those". I don't know how to fix that, though.

I think this may be a real problem. There's not enough "wow factor". The abilities (especially the beacons and the wall) are fun in practice and the tree will be quite strong in more challenging content, but it's definitely missing something to make people excited.

But then again, Radiant Servant is similar, and now people recognize the power of Burst and Aura and build around them. The same will probably happen here even if no changes are made, but people will be disappointed with the tree at first.

Hopefully you can spice things up a bit so that people feel good, without giving it a power boost.

[Zeklijan]

Even if the only scaling it is improving are abilities that are exclusively in that single tree of that single class?

Interesting. It'd be a much worse tree without it.

I don't mind if you take casters in that direction, but other classes need to have a similar treatment in that case.
I have to say that epic levels granting caster levels is a pretty good idea IMO but it should be for everyone, not just a specific tree, otherwise I don't see it's place.

[Steelstar]

I don't mind if you take casters in that direction, but other classes need to have a similar treatment in that case.
I have to say that epic levels granting caster levels is a pretty good idea IMO but it should be for everyone, not just a specific tree, otherwise I don't see it's place.

Many trees have SLAs that function on the Caster Level system - Between "Master" feats and spellcasting destinies, you can get most of the abilities in other trees that cast spells to scale higher once you're in Epic levels by increasing their Maximum Caster Levels and Caster Levels. The Hope and Beacon skills in this tree do not benefit from the Caster Level system, instead benefiting from Favored Soul level directly. Yes, you're benefiting from getting the scaling for these six specific abilities directly out of the tree, but you're also not ?getting scaling from the Epic Destinies or Master feats.

[Aelonwy]

Many trees have SLAs that function on the Caster Level system - Between "Master" feats and spellcasting destinies, you can get most of the abilities in other trees that cast spells to scale higher once you're in Epic levels by increasing their Maximum Caster Levels and Caster Levels. The Hope and Beacon skills in this tree do not benefit from the Caster Level system, instead benefiting from Favored Soul level directly. Yes, you're benefiting from getting the scaling for these six specific abilities directly out of the tree, but you're also not ?getting scaling from the Epic Destinies or Master feats.

I think what he may be indicating, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what he's saying is other casters have to purchase Epic Destinies and use an epic feat slot to increase the caster levels of their spells/slas. It would be nice and more fair if caster levels and/or max caster levels were tied to heroic + epic levels instead of heroic levels + epic destiny access.

[edrein]

I'll admit I'm still hoping that there's a chance we can see a flipside to this tree as a negative energy offensive/debuff version.

Beacon of Despair

• Core 1: For each Core ability you gain, +1% Negative Spell Critical Chance, +10 Negative Energy Amp, and +5 Negative Spell Power.
• Core 2: Beacon of Pestillence: Cost: 2 SP: Enemies ahead of you* are damage for 1 point of Negative Energy per Favored Soul level. If you or an ally is undead this effect heals you. This scales with your Negative Spell Power. 6 second cooldown.
• Core 3: Dark Light: Whenever you cast one of your Beacons or use Flight of Terror, you and affected allies gain a Sacred bonus to Negative Energy Amplification equal to your Favored Soul level for 12 seconds. Enemies in the zone of effect are dazzled and take a -1 penalty to attack, spot, and search. These enemies are shadowed by Dark Light, dispelling stealth, invisibility, blur, and displacement, for 10 seconds, and giving a -40 penalty to hide. Sightless enemies are immune to the dazzle effect
• Core 4: Beacon of Despair: Cost: 15 SP: Enemies ahead of you* take the effects of an Enervation and a Fear spell, and are harmed for 5 points of Negative Energy per Favored Soul level. If you or your ally are undead this effect heals you.This scales with 100% Negative Spell Power. 30 second cooldown.
• Core 5: Flight of Terror: When you use your Leap of Faith, any enemy you pass through is effected by the Phantasmal Killer spell.
• Core 6: Shroud of the Vampire: 50 SP. 30 second cooldown. Multiselector:
  
  • Passive:+4 WIS. You gain +3 Maximum Caster Level with all Negative spells. Your Loss and Beacon abilities that scale with Favored Soul level now add Epic Levels as well.
  • Passive: +2 CHA. You gain +3 Maximum Caster Level with all Negative spells. Your Loss and Beacon abilities that scale with Favored Soul level now add Epic Levels as well.

Tier 1:

• Crushing Despair SLA 10/5/2 SP. (3 second cooldown)
• Confidence: +1/+2/+3 Concentration, Diplomacy and Heal. Rank 3: You also gain +10 Negative Energy Spell Power.
• Divine Durability: +2/4/6 Competence Bonus to PRR.
• Spell Critical Chance: Negative: +2%
• Spell Points: 30/60/90 Spell Points

Tier 2:

• Necrotic Bolt SLA: (6/4/2 Spell Points) (3/2/1 second cooldown)
• Loss of Inspiration: Targeted enemy gains a debuff to all save and skill throws equal to 1/4 your Favored Soul level for 12 seconds. 6 second cooldown.
• Divine Durability II: +2/4/6 Competence bonus to MRR.
• Spell Critical Chance: Negative: +2%
• Fear's Reward: Multiselector (Shares a cooldown and same SP cost as Divine Might).
  
  • You gain an Sacred bonus to Negative Spell Power equal to your Strength modifier for 30/60/120 seconds.
  • You gain an Sacred bonus to Negative Spell Power equal to your Wisdom modifier for 30/60/120 seconds.
  • You gain an Sacred bonus to Negative Spell Power equal to your Charisma modifier for 30/60/120 seconds.

Tier 3:

• Loss of Protection: Targeted enemy losses PRR and MRR equal to Favored Soul levels for 12 seconds. 6 second cooldown.
• Efficient Empower
• Spell Critical Chance: Negative: +2%
• WIS/CHA

Tier 4:

• Death Ward SLA: 10/8/5 SP (4 second cooldown)
• Loss of Victory: Targeted enemy gains 1% vulnerability per Favored Soul levels. This lasts for 12 seconds. 6 second cooldown.
• Pesimism: Every time you cast one of your Loss abilities, you gain a stack of Dire Beacon, giving yourself +2 PRR, +2 MRR, and +1 AC. This stacks up to 10 times, and stacks fade once every 12 seconds. Loss of Success grants 3 stacks.
• Spell Critical Chance: Negative: +2%
• WIS/CHA

Tier 5:

• Animate Ally SLA: 15 SP, 9 second cooldown
• Loss of Success: Targeted enemy loses 30 melee and ranged power for 12 seconds. Spellcasters are instead silence and reflected upon their next spell cast. 60 second cooldown.
• Harm SLA: 40 SP, 6 second cooldown
• Undying Beacon: Allies affected by your Beacons gain Unconsciousness Range equal to 10x your Favored Soul level. Allied undead do not crumble during this effect. This effect lasts for 12 seconds, and is refreshed if the target is affected by another Beacon spell.
• Wall of Death: Cost: 30 Spell Points. Create a wall that persists for 30 seconds. Enemies in the wall take an Inflict Moderate Wounds spell every few seconds. Enemy undead are instead feared. 60 second cooldown.

[Morroiel]

I'll admit I'm still hoping that there's a chance we can see a flipside to this tree as a negative energy offensive/debuff version.

So dc casters get a free -5 or -7 save debuff? Bosses do 25% roughly less damage? And you get an aoe pk at virtually free sp cost?

Do i need to continue ot does this make it clear why this isnt balanced?

[edrein]

So dc casters get a free -5 or -7 save debuff? Bosses do 25% roughly less damage? And you get an aoe pk at virtually free sp cost?

Do i need to continue ot does this make it clear why this isnt balanced?

It's almost like the numbers could be adjusted to a more balanced position. The post was made literally to show the devs that the idea of a flipside of the tree can work. I mean granted I posed a similar idea some 8 months ago when it was first shown to the PC, but I've been off the PC for a while now. So I figured it might not hurt to revamp the concept to fit the current version of the tree. I admit I didn't remotely tweak the numbers in a balanced fashion compared to simply providing the debuff version.

As to a free AoE PK, come now. If you think this wouldn't have some sort of DC attached you're being ridiculous. A FVS has no innate support for illusion spells. So they would have to dedicate feats, gear, and twists to supporting this ability if they planned to be a PKing machine, weakening themselves in other aspects.

[TMTrainer]

Not going to lie, even with the current changes, I'm probably never going to take the Hope line of enhancements besides Hope for Success and maybe Victory if I have extra AP after everything else. I can't be bothered to use these abilities with how short their effects are and how much up time you would need to maintain them.

Basically, why would I spend time casting Hope for Victory if I could better spend the AP on Nimbus of Light SLA? Nimbus of Light would provide more effective damage AND be far more interesting and fun for me to use. The "Hope for Whatever" line has a problem... as the caster of the spell you NEVER see the benefit of any of these effects. Hope for Success is the only one that's directly powerful enough to justify taking (and as a T5, it deserves to be so!)... all of the others are weak, annoying-level upkeep buffs that really don't effect that much. I'd rather all the Hope abilities be made into 18 second, 60 second cooldown abilities that are more powerful than how they are now (basically mini-action boosts you can pass out?).

Hope for Inspiration is a weird case, admittedly. I feel like it's better the less geared you are. Need to help the Rogue out a little bit with lockpick/search? You got a button for that. Need to help hit that optional bluff/diplomacy/intimidate check? You can help with that, too. It's probably the only other Hope ability I would take consistently.

[Aelonwy]

The "Hope for Whatever" line has a problem... as the caster of the spell you NEVER see the benefit of any of these effects.

I will second this... because I have said it before. Not many really want to spend their limited APs on enhancements that only intrinsically benefit other players. How many players take Halfling/Harper Heroic Companion? *shrugs* No one I've ever played with. And that's only 3 APs and lasts for 30 seconds.

[SirValentine]

Many trees have SLAs that function on the Caster Level system - Between "Master" feats and spellcasting destinies, you can get most of the abilities in other trees that cast spells to scale higher once you're in Epic levels by increasing their Maximum Caster Levels and Caster Levels. The Hope and Beacon skills in this tree do not benefit from the Caster Level system, instead benefiting from Favored Soul level directly.

(Emphasis added.)

So...why? You have the existing caster level system. Why would you ignore it and create a different method of scaling only for these abilities? And then realize it scales worse into Epic even than your existing caster level system, so create another different method for Epic scaling? It seems needlessly complicated for you, and confusing for us, and still doesn't address scaling issues everywhere else.

If you feel scaling into Epics, in general, needs work, then please work on it, in general. Instead of adding an inconsistent special case.

[Steelstar]

(Emphasis added.)

So...why? You have the existing caster level system. Why would you ignore it and create a different method of scaling only for these abilities? And then realize it scales worse into Epic even than your existing caster level system, so create another different method for Epic scaling? It seems needlessly complicated for you, and confusing for us, and still doesn't address scaling issues everywhere else.

If you feel scaling into Epics, in general, needs work, then please work on it, in general. Instead of adding an inconsistent special case.

I could change the text to read "Applies (x) per caster level" / "Add Maximum Caster Levels and Caster Levels to these spells equal to your Epic Level", it would function identically despite no changes on the functional side. It's doing exactly what a function of Caster Levels/Max Caster Levels would do, it's just a little more honest about how it's working on the back end right now.

It's not using the Caster Level system because the Caster Level system can't handle scaling the way it would need to make these work correctly. A very early version used the Caster Level system to scale things that that system can handle, but those limitations led to an overall worse version of the tree. (It's also worth mentioning that Caster Level/Max Caster Level is one of our most consistently misunderstood systems. I'd love to do some work on that at some point to make it clearer; that time isn't right now, unfortunately.)

Ultimately, this tree needs an accessible avenue to scale into Epics, as well as a capstone that makes it worth taking for a pure-20 Favored Soul who focuses on Healing and Buffing, and so it's getting that.