A Slippery Halfling Healiadin With Some Punch Take 2

[Trig_of_Cowtown]

This is my first attempt on building a character through Character Builder Lite. Nice program!

TWF Halfling Paladin
Paladin 20
Lawful Good Halfling


Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . 32pt. . .34pt . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 10. . . .10 . . . 10. . . .4: DEX
Dexterity . . . 16. . . .18 . . . 18. . . .8: DEX
Constitution. . 12. . . .12 . . . 12. . . 12: DEX
Intelligence. . 12. . . .12 . . . 14. . . 16: DEX
Wisdom. . . . . 12. . . .12 . . . 12. . . 20: DEX
Charisma. . . . 14. . . .14 . . . 14. . .


Skills
. . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Heal. . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Concent . 4. 1. 1. . .1 .1 .1 . . 1. 1. 1. . .1 .1 .1 . . 1. 1. 1. . .18
Diplo . . 2. 1. 1. . .1 .1 .1 . . 1. 1. 1. . .1 .1 .1 . . 1. 1. 1. . .16
UMD . . . 1. . . . 1. . . . . .1 . . . . . 1. . . . . .1 . . . . . 1. .6
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .12. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3. 3


Feats

.1. . . . : Weapon Finesse
.3. . . . : Two Weapon Fighting
.6. . . . : Least Dragonmark: Healing
.9. . . . : Point Blank Shot
12. . . . : Precise Shot
15. . . . : Child of: Olladra
18. . . . : Beloved of: Olladra

.1 Deity. : Follower of: Olladra
.6 Deity. : Luck of Olladra


Spells

1. Cure Light Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Protection from Evil, Divine Favor
2. Angelskin, Bull's Strength, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy
3. Cure Moderate Wounds, Dispel Magic, Prayer, Remove Curse
4. Break Enchantment, Cure Serious Wounds, Death Ward, Holy Sword

Enhancements (80 AP)

Sacred Defender (39 AP)

• Holy Bastion
  1. Extra Lay On Hands III, Resilient Defense III, Sacred Armor Mastery III
  2. Instinctive Defense III, Bulwark Aura III, Durable Defense III
  3. Resistance Aura III, Charisma
  4. Reinforced Armor III, Spellshield Aura III, Swift Defense, Charisma
  5. Harbored by Light III, Reprisal III

Halfling (24 AP)

• Halfling Luck, Dexterity, Halfling Luck II, Dexterity II, Halfling Luck III
  1. Jorasco Dragonmark Focus III, Stealthy III
  2. Lesser Dragonmark of Healing, Break out the Leeches, Heroic Companion III
  3. Greater Dragonmark of Healing, Skillful Thrower
  4. Master Thrower

Knight of the Chalice (17 AP)

• Slayer of Evil, Courage of Heaven, Slayer of Evil II
  1. Divine Light III, Extra Remove Disease III
  2. Rally III
  3. Vigor of Life

[/color]
Leveling Guide

1. Hlf0 Halfling Luck; Hlf1 Stealthy I, II, III
2. KoC0 Slayer of Evil; KoC1 Divine Light I, II, III
3. KoC1 Extra Remove Disease I, II, III; KoC0 Courage of Heaven
4. KoC2 Rally I, II
5. KoC2 Rally III; Hlf0 Dexterity
6. Hlf1 Jorasco Dragonmark Focus I, II, III
7. Hlf2 Lesser Dragonmark of Healing; Hlf0 Halfling Luck II; Hlf2 Break out the Leeches
8. Hlf3 Greater Dragonmark of Healing; Hlf2 Heroic Companion I, II, III
9. Hlf3 Skillful Thrower; Hlf4 Master Thrower; KoC0 Slayer of Evil II
10. KoC3 Vigor of Life; SD0 Holy Bastion; SD1 Extra Lay On Hands I
11. SD1 Extra Lay On Hands II, III; SD1 Resilient Defense I, II
12. SD1 Resilient Defense III; Hlf0 Dexterity II; SD1 Sacred Armor Mastery I
13. SD1 Sacred Armor Mastery II, III; SD2 Instinctive Defense I, II
14. SD2 Instinctive Defense III; SD2 Bulwark Aura I, II, III
15. SD2 Durable Defense I, II, III; SD3 Resistance Aura I
16. SD3 Resistance Aura II, III; SD3 Charisma
17. SD4 Reinforced Armor I, II, III; Hlf0 Halfling Luck III
18. SD4 Spellshield Aura I, II, III; SD4 Swift Defense
19. SD4 Charisma; SD5 Harbored by Light I, II
20. SD5 Harbored by Light III; SD5 Reprisal I, II, III

[unbongwah]

Going DEX-based on a pure non-elf paladin makes no sense b/c you have no way of getting DEX to damage to either melee or ranged weapons. [Elf paladins can take Aerenal / Valenar Grace.] Splashing a little melee DPS and a little ranged DPS is a good way of ensuring you're bad at both. You choose halfling so you can take Dragonmark, but don't take metamagics to make it worthwhile.

EDIT: oh wait, are you trying to make a thrower paladin? Okay nm that's even worse than I thought...bottom line, your DPS will be terrible and your healing won't even be as good as it could be on a pure paladin.

[Trig_of_Cowtown]

Going DEX-based on a pure non-elf paladin makes no sense b/c you have no way of getting DEX to damage to either melee or ranged weapons. [Elf paladins can take Aerenal / Valenar Grace.] Splashing a little melee DPS and a little ranged DPS is a good way of ensuring you're bad at both. You choose halfling so you can take Dragonmark, but don't take metamagics to make it worthwhile.

EDIT: oh wait, are you trying to make a thrower paladin? Okay nm that's even worse than I thought...bottom line, your DPS will be terrible and your healing won't even be as good as it could be on a pure paladin.

Thanks for your input!

[Maelodic]

Could you let us know what you're trying to accomplish as far as playstyle and we can help you out.

[C-Dog]

@ Mael - this is from a previous thread:

.. I read a comment in the ddowiki that halfling paladins tend to have the highest saves of all paladins and one of their common builds is a healing paladin....

(...if that helps any.)


@ Trig - Halfling's get +1 to all Saves, so they'll "tend to have" the highest saves of all of any class - but that doesn't make them the #1 recommended choice for a Pali, esp for 1st life builds.

This is my first attempt on building a character through Character Builder Lite. Nice program!

TWF Halfling Paladin

Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt . . 32pt. . .34pt . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ----. . .---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 10. . . .10 . . . 10. . . .4: DEX
Dexterity . . . 16. . . .18 . . . 18. . . .8: DEX
Constitution. . 12. . . .12 . . . 12. . . 12: DEX
Intelligence. . 12. . . .12 . . . 14. . . 16: DEX
Wisdom. . . . . 12. . . .12 . . . 12. . . 20: DEX
Charisma. . . . 14. . . .14 . . . 14. . .

Halfling Pali is a slick trick - pure Pali's are not usually Dex based, and the -Str plus an Encumbrance penalty does you no favors. Going ranged would solve that in part, but a ranged pure Pali is another rare bird (b/c many of a Pali's best enhancements don't help "ranged", sadly).

Let's jump ahead - until you have a 32 point build, a MAD* character is not generally recommended. "28 build points" is doable, but it's just a tough road to feed all the stat needs for a pali that can both heal and fight respectably. If you insist on a Pali, maybe consider doing it with a Drow - that's (pretty much) what they're there for - as a "lots of high stats" solution for new(er) players.

(* Multiple Attribute Dependent - as opposed to SAD (Single-Attribute Dependent) builds, like a Strength Barbarian, or Int-build Mechanic.)

Once you get a 32(+) build unlocked (either via 1750 Favor or a Reincarnation on that one toon), then you can do something like this and make it rock. But with 28 points... urgh, it's been done, but a tough row to hoe.


Meanwhile...

o Stats: All those 12's... accept that some are dumpstats, like Wisdom. Just use Owl's Wisdom pots/wands, or a (swap-able?) item for casting, and call it good. & you need/want a 14 Con MINIMUM, both for HPs and Fort Saves. More is always better, esp on a 1st life.

o Skills: Diplo and Conc are (effectively) contested skills - to be useful "at level", you want them maxed. (Heal at "as much as possible" is fine, esp for a non-Cleric type.) UMD 6 is (almost?) completely useless. Diplo is gravy - nice, but needed? On one hand, (if kept maxed, including gear) it might get you out of trouble, but if you can live without it (and drop to a 10 Int), so much the better for the overall demands of the build.

o Feats - A standard character gets 7 Feats by Lvl 20. A "good" combat character will usually have a minimum of 5-6(+!) dedicated to that ONE combat style. 2 Feats to 2 diff combat styles = fail on both, guaranteed. Choose one, stick to it. (I recommend Ranged, just cuz it's generally safer for a new alt and "in the back" is a better place for a backup healer, but ymmv.)


Compare your build w/ these solid "recommended" first-life builds, and see the diffs: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5759360

[Trig_of_Cowtown]

@ Mael - this is from a previous thread:



(...if that helps any.)


@ Trig - Halfling's get +1 to all Saves, so they'll "tend to have" the highest saves of all of any class - but that doesn't make them the #1 recommended choice for a Pali, esp for 1st life builds.


Halfling Pali is a slick trick - pure Pali's are not usually Dex based, and the -Str plus an Encumbrance penalty does you no favors. Going ranged would solve that in part, but a ranged pure Pali is another rare bird (b/c many of a Pali's best enhancements don't help "ranged", sadly).

Let's jump ahead - until you have a 32 point build, a MAD* character is not generally recommended. "28 build points" is doable, but it's just a tough road to feed all the stat needs for a pali that can both heal and fight respectably. If you insist on a Pali, maybe consider doing it with a Drow - that's (pretty much) what they're there for - as a "lots of high stats" solution for new(er) players.

(* Multiple Attribute Dependent - as opposed to SAD (Single-Attribute Dependent) builds, like a Strength Barbarian, or Int-build Mechanic.)

Once you get a 32(+) build unlocked (either via 1750 Favor or a Reincarnation on that one toon), then you can do something like this and make it rock. But with 28 points... urgh, it's been done, but a tough row to hoe.


Meanwhile...

o Stats: All those 12's... accept that some are dumpstats, like Wisdom. Just use Owl's Wisdom pots/wands, or a (swap-able?) item for casting, and call it good. & you need/want a 14 Con MINIMUM, both for HPs and Fort Saves. More is always better, esp on a 1st life.

o Skills: Diplo and Conc are (effectively) contested skills - to be useful "at level", you want them maxed. (Heal at "as much as possible" is fine, esp for a non-Cleric type.) UMD 6 is (almost?) completely useless. Diplo is gravy - nice, but needed? On one hand, (if kept maxed, including gear) it might get you out of trouble, but if you can live without it (and drop to a 10 Int), so much the better for the overall demands of the build.

o Feats - A standard character gets 7 Feats by Lvl 20. A "good" combat character will usually have a minimum of 5-6(+!) dedicated to that ONE combat style. 2 Feats to 2 diff combat styles = fail on both, guaranteed. Choose one, stick to it. (I recommend Ranged, just cuz it's generally safer for a new alt and "in the back" is a better place for a backup healer, but ymmv.)


Compare your build w/ these solid "recommended" first-life builds, and see the diffs: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5759360

Thank you for the great breakdown of where the wheels came off.

Yeah, it was hard to decide on the stats. Without any experience with the class, it seemed paladins needed almost every stat buffed in some way, especially if the character is halfling. For the life of me, it didn't make sense that the builds I read through here had their wisdom set at 8. How did any of these builds expect to cast spells? Now I know it's done with the help of potions and wands.

Guess it's back to following the recommended first-life builds.

[unbongwah]

For the life of me, it didn't make sense that the builds I read through here had their wisdom set at 8. How did any of these builds expect to cast spells? Now I know it's done with the help of potions and wands.

Owl's Wisdom is +4; that's enough to get any pure paladin (or ranger) with base WIS 8 to level 11, at which point you gain level 3 spells and need to equip a +5 WIS item (presuming no other bonuses). Fortunately, that's a good time for a first-lifer with no gear to go farm a Wrath of Sora Kell set, which drops from the F2P Lordsmarch quests.

[C-Dog]

...it didn't make sense that the builds I read through here had their wisdom set at 8. How did any of these builds expect to cast spells? Now I know it's done with the help of potions and wands.

And/or gear, plus misc. In DDO, temporary stat is what determines casting ability, so if you only have a base 8 in your casting stat, but your Guild Buff Bonus(!) is +2*, and then you throw on a +4 item (or swig a potion for +4), you have a (current) 14 and can cast Level 4 spells np. If it's only Buffs, then you can swap the item back out (or ignore the timer on the pot), and you're good to go for as long as the buff lasts. For higher than +4, it has to be items, but same concept.

(* Easy to forget, but it adds in!)

Guess it's back to following the recommended first-life builds.

Or tweak one to suit (using the same program you've been playing with). A lot of those have enough dps to spare to have a little flexibility, and you should be able to tell what's what on the trade-offs.

[unbongwah]

Let's dust off an old flavor build which does a better job of being a DEX-based midget with Dragonmark heals.

Halfpint Tempest
Ranger 20
True Neutral Halfling




Stats
               28pt     32pt     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength         8        8       4: DEX
Dexterity       20       20       8: DEX
Constitution    14       16      12: DEX
Intelligence    12       12      16: DEX
Wisdom           8        8      20: DEX
Charisma         8        8      24: DEX
                                 28: DEX


Skills
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Concent   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Heal      2  3     2     2     2     2     2     2     2     2     2  23
Search    4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spot      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Hide      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Move Si   4     1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  22
UMD       2     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     11
Tumble    1                                                            1
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         28  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7




Feats


 1        : Precision
 3        : Least Dragonmark: Healing
 6        : Maximize Spell
 9        : Improved Critical: Slashing
12        : Empower Healing Spell
15        : Quicken Spell
18        : Empower Spell
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Intensify Spell
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: First Blood OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Embodiment of Law OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Epic Reflexes
30 Legend : Scion of: Ethereal Plane


 1 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
 5 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Construct
10 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Giant
15 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
20 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Elemental




Enhancements (80 AP)


Tempest (42 AP)
Shield of Whirling Steel, Tempest, Graceful Death, Deflect Arrows, Whirlwind, Dervish
Improved Defense III, Whirling Blades
Improved Parry III, Whirling Blades, Haste Boost III
Storm Dancer, Whirling Blades, Dexterity
Storm Tempest, The Growing Storm III, Whirling Blades
Dual Perfection, Cuts: A Thousand Cuts III, Whirling Blades, Dance of Death III

Deepwood Stalker (26 AP)
Far Shot, Sneak Attack, Exposing Strike, Advanced Sneak Attack
Stealthy III, Tendon Cut I
Survivalist, Melee/Range Power Boost III
Survivalist, Thrill of the Hunt III, Favored Hunter III
Survivalist, Killer III

Halfling (12 AP)
Halfling Luck, Dexterity, Halfling Luck II
Jorasco Dragonmark Focus III
Lesser Dragonmark of Healing, Break out the Leeches
Greater Dragonmark of Healing

Leveling Guide
Tem0 Shield of Whirling Steel; Tem1 Whirling Blades; DS0 Far Shot
DS1 Tendon Cut I; DS1 Stealthy I; Tem1 Improved Defense I, II
Tem0 Tempest; DS1 Stealthy II, III; DS2 Improved Weapon Finesse
Tem2 Whirling Blades; Tem2 Haste Boost I, II
Tem2 Haste Boost III; Hlf0 Halfling Luck; Hlf0 Dexterity
Reset Deepwood Stalker
Halfling
Jorasco Dragonmark Focus III
Lesser Dragonmark of Healing, Break out the Leeches

Tempest: Graceful Death
(none)
Improved Parry III
Hlf0 Halfling Luck II; Hlf3 Greater Dragonmark of Healing; Tem1 Improved Defense III
Tem3 Storm Dancer; Tem3 Whirling Blades
Tem4 Storm Tempest; Tem4 Whirling Blades
Tem3 Dexterity; Tem4 The Growing Storm I, II
Tem4 The Growing Storm III; (Bank 3 AP)
Tem0 Deflect Arrows; Tem5 Dance of Death I, II, III; Tem5 Cuts: A Thousand Cuts I, II, III
Tem5 Dual Perfection; Tem5 Whirling Blades
DS0 Far Shot; DS1 Stealthy I, II, III
DS1 Tendon Cut I; DS2 Melee/Range Power Boost I, II, III
DS2 Survivalist; DS0 Sneak Attack; DS0 Exposing Strike
DS3 Survivalist; DS3 Favored Hunter I, II
Tem0 Whirlwind; DS3 Favored Hunter III; DS3 Thrill of the Hunt I, II
DS3 Thrill of the Hunt III; DS0 Advanced Sneak Attack; DS4 Survivalist
Tem0 Dervish; DS4 Killer I, II, III

Since rangers get their TWF feats free, they have extra slots to spare which a paladin doesn't. And unlike paladins, DEX to damage is an inherent feature of rangers as long as you use the right weapons; this is specced for scimitars. They're also less stat-constrained than paladins since CHA is a dump stat. And Tempests have significantly better melee DPS than TWF paladins even when using scimitars instead of khopeshes. The tradeoff is they're squishier: fewer HPs, less PRR/MRR, lower saves w/out Divine Grace. EDIT: Though they do get Evasion to make up for less MRR.

[Trig_of_Cowtown]

Let's dust off an old flavor build which does a better job of being a DEX-based midget with Dragonmark heals.

Halfpint Tempest
Ranger 20
True Neutral Halfling




Stats
               28pt     32pt     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength         8        8       4: DEX
Dexterity       20       20       8: DEX
Constitution    14       16      12: DEX
Intelligence    12       12      16: DEX
Wisdom           8        8      20: DEX
Charisma         8        8      24: DEX
                                 28: DEX


Skills
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Concent   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Heal      2  3     2     2     2     2     2     2     2     2     2  23
Search    4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spot      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Hide      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Move Si   4     1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  22
UMD       2     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     11
Tumble    1                                                            1
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         28  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7




Feats


 1        : Precision
 3        : Least Dragonmark: Healing
 6        : Maximize Spell
 9        : Improved Critical: Slashing
12        : Empower Healing Spell
15        : Quicken Spell
18        : Empower Spell
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Intensify Spell
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: First Blood OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Embodiment of Law OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Epic Reflexes
30 Legend : Scion of: Ethereal Plane


 1 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
 5 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Construct
10 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Giant
15 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
20 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Elemental




Enhancements (80 AP)


Tempest (42 AP)
Shield of Whirling Steel, Tempest, Graceful Death, Deflect Arrows, Whirlwind, Dervish
Improved Defense III, Whirling Blades
Improved Parry III, Whirling Blades, Haste Boost III
Storm Dancer, Whirling Blades, Dexterity
Storm Tempest, The Growing Storm III, Whirling Blades
Dual Perfection, Cuts: A Thousand Cuts III, Whirling Blades, Dance of Death III

Deepwood Stalker (26 AP)
Far Shot, Sneak Attack, Exposing Strike, Advanced Sneak Attack
Stealthy III, Tendon Cut I
Survivalist, Melee/Range Power Boost III
Survivalist, Thrill of the Hunt III, Favored Hunter III
Survivalist, Killer III

Halfling (12 AP)
Halfling Luck, Dexterity, Halfling Luck II
Jorasco Dragonmark Focus III
Lesser Dragonmark of Healing, Break out the Leeches
Greater Dragonmark of Healing

Leveling Guide
Tem0 Shield of Whirling Steel; Tem1 Whirling Blades; DS0 Far Shot
DS1 Tendon Cut I; DS1 Stealthy I; Tem1 Improved Defense I, II
Tem0 Tempest; DS1 Stealthy II, III; DS2 Improved Weapon Finesse
Tem2 Whirling Blades; Tem2 Haste Boost I, II
Tem2 Haste Boost III; Hlf0 Halfling Luck; Hlf0 Dexterity
Reset Deepwood Stalker
Halfling
Jorasco Dragonmark Focus III
Lesser Dragonmark of Healing, Break out the Leeches

Tempest: Graceful Death
(none)
Improved Parry III
Hlf0 Halfling Luck II; Hlf3 Greater Dragonmark of Healing; Tem1 Improved Defense III
Tem3 Storm Dancer; Tem3 Whirling Blades
Tem4 Storm Tempest; Tem4 Whirling Blades
Tem3 Dexterity; Tem4 The Growing Storm I, II
Tem4 The Growing Storm III; (Bank 3 AP)
Tem0 Deflect Arrows; Tem5 Dance of Death I, II, III; Tem5 Cuts: A Thousand Cuts I, II, III
Tem5 Dual Perfection; Tem5 Whirling Blades
DS0 Far Shot; DS1 Stealthy I, II, III
DS1 Tendon Cut I; DS2 Melee/Range Power Boost I, II, III
DS2 Survivalist; DS0 Sneak Attack; DS0 Exposing Strike
DS3 Survivalist; DS3 Favored Hunter I, II
Tem0 Whirlwind; DS3 Favored Hunter III; DS3 Thrill of the Hunt I, II
DS3 Thrill of the Hunt III; DS0 Advanced Sneak Attack; DS4 Survivalist
Tem0 Dervish; DS4 Killer I, II, III

Since rangers get their TWF feats free, they have extra slots to spare which a paladin doesn't. And unlike paladins, DEX to damage is an inherent feature of rangers as long as you use the right weapons; this is specced from scimitars. They're also less stat-constrained than paladins since CHA is a dump stat. And Tempests have significantly better melee DPS than TWF paladins even when using scimitars instead of khopeshes. The tradeoff is they're squishier: fewer HPs, less PRR, lower saves w/out Divine Grace.

Oooo! Now this, this is interesting.

Thank you!