Stealthing Reaper: A workbook for observations and tactics

[Saekee]

As many of you have figured out by now, stealthing quests in the Reaper difficulty is vastly discouraged due to the reaper autodetect of stealthed figures.

This workbook is mine and others' exploration into how to overcome these obstacles. Severlin mentioned that there might be some changes to the setting, but until then...Please contribute. Rants are not welcome since they are not helping me. I do not like getting auto-detected.

Observations (will update):

1. When a reaper detects your footfalls, you get a red circle strobing below your toon. I do not know why you know that they are aware of you, but it is a perk. If you DO NOT MOVE, you will not get the circle/detection information. This is the same as with spiders and oozes.
2. There is a range in which reapers do not yet detect you. If you are not too close to them, but just far enough away, they will come looking for you alone without having aggro'd all the mobs onto you. If you are standing within other ones where the reaper did not spawn, then those will in turn be newly aggro'd, reversing all your sneak success. So this does not work in all quests
3. When reapers first spawn, if you are not moving and in stealth, they do not see you right away. In fact, I had a carnage reaper in The Tide Turns chase after a noisemaker instead of me while I was up on the pipes near the last set of rats--it spawned with the rats after I was already in place, immobile, stealthed.
4. If reapers do not have line of sight, and you are under detection, they will come to investigate without alerting mobs around them (still studying this, thanks Blerkington) and you can use bluff on them.
5. Sometimes while sneaking they spawn with 1 HP. I have not seen this with zerg groups. I have no idea why.
6. Sometimes they do not see you if you are below them but they do seem to see you if you are above them. See this post here.
7. If you are detected by one (you get the footfalls) and you ignore it, it is possible that you will get the detection symbol (red footfalls) for the entire dungeon run. So once detected, it is a good idea to kill that reaper. In a Snitch run I made recently, a reaper hidden in some tunnel detected me while I went up a waterflow. That made the red footfalls appear all the way to the end. It did NOT result in mobs detecting me later (I snuck past the sleeping dogs fine, for example). I just lost the alert system.
8. You can bluff pull a reaper but do not fail at the bluff roll...
9. I have seen reapers detecting me but unable to chase me down since they were stuck behind other mobs. I was not close enough for the reaper to have it tell them where I was.
10. You can have a reaper sometimes sense you past a closed door and then go through it (still closed) to pursue you. I had this happen in Relic of a Sovereign Past and The Final Vintage
11. There are quests with mobs that are not active until you run near them. Stealthed toons can prevent them from activating. However, reapers will spawn ACTIVE in such cases (I saw this in the newer quests anyway). So you will need to deal with them--pull them with stealth to a kill area, or something similar. This could be useful in high reaper for a good party.

General stealth strategy (updating): Stealth in reaper is inefficient and frustrating. Until one can charm them, it really only works well in a limited number of quests.

1. Stealth slowly and watch for red footfalls
2. Quests that are typically good for normal play are rarely good for reaper. Typical stealth quests like Undermine or Blockade Buster feature packs of mobs that one can sneak past; on reaper, that ends up being an aggro mess. Plus, they lack #3 below:
3. always have a kill area where you can pull a lone reaper to execute without aggroing other mobs. Sometimes creating a kill zone is a good idea (not just sneaking by mobs but clearing out an area slowly)
4. Have some means of taking them down fast and hard. For melee stealth toons, I recommend a combo of Improved Feint then a well-timed Shiv. This double-bluff extended turnaround allows a safe rapid takedown if the setting is not too high.
5. If you can charm them somehow, like a sneaky bard or something, this will get a whole lot easier...
6. epic: adrenaline melee knockdown works on reapers; they float still but are immobile. This alone makes it my ED of choice.

To Devs:
Please note that even using my best techniques it was taking me a long time to get through r1-2 reaper settings on my squishy gimp build. So no, this is not some shortcut to get easy Rxp. It is very difficult. I am also getting cremated by bosses who are proving to be the biggest obstacle.


Epic quests I have used the stealth technique (Difficulty; my level) on my squishy build (reincarnated at level 21; will try again):

1. Claw of Vulkoor (r6; 20) solo. With the right spawns, they can be isolated
2. Snitch (r1 or 2?; 20) solo. Red-nameds proved to hard for me in higher settings.
3. The Tide Turns (r1, 20) solo.
4. A Small Problem (r1, 20) solo. Did not want to do a tougher setting for a protect-NPC quest.
5. Impossible Demands (r3?, 20) solo. Well, hardly a stealth quest...
6. Claw of Vulkoor (r10, 21) solo. Lucky spawns.

[Saekee]

In epic snitch, this reaper by the oozes just sat there and did not detect or pursue me despite the footfall warnings. The rats below did not pursue me:

[Saekee]

This carnage reaper spawned and pursued a noisemaker down the hall. Weird.

[blerkington]

My observations on this are as follows:

Reapers appear to have tremorsense, meaning it's not possible for us to sneak up on them no matter how good our move silently score is. Once we get inside their detection radius, which is actually larger than the radius in which a reaper can hear approaching characters not in stealth, the reaper moves to investigate.

However, if the reaper doesn't have a line of sight, it doesn't aggro immediately. Instead it will start moving towards the source of the noise. It's only when the reaper sees us that it aggros and tries to raise the alarm with nearby monsters. The reaper can be very close and still be searching rather than be fully aware of its enemy if it can't actually see us.

So as was already pointed out, when we notice the flashing red visual cue on our character, we can try backing up while using terrain to prevent the reaper from seeing us. If we can pull it far enough away from nearby monsters without being seen, it will not be able to raise an alarm with its allies. But once it does have line of sight, it will spot us no matter how good our hide score is and also even if invisible.

As far as I can tell, successfully bluffing a monster also prevents it from alarming its allies for a short period, and this may apply to reapers too. This (along with not moving during combat) may allow us to silently kill reapers while they are still within hearing and alarm range of allied monsters, for example, just around a corner.

Unfortunately the range for bluff is less than a reaper's tremorsense detection radius, so sneaking up to them for a bluff pull without something to hide behind will not work. It may be possible to get closer not in stealth if you have visual obstacles, then trying to bluff them, but this might not pull reapers that prefer to keep their distance anyway.

Thanks.

[Saekee]

My observations on this are as follows:

Reapers appear to have tremorsense, meaning it's not possible for us to sneak up on them no matter how good our move silently score is. Once we get inside their detection radius, which is actually larger than the radius in which a reaper can hear approaching characters not in stealth, the reaper moves to investigate.

However, if the reaper doesn't have a line of sight, it doesn't aggro immediately. Instead it will start moving towards the source of the noise. It's only when the reaper sees us that it aggros and tries to raise the alarm with nearby monsters. The reaper can be very close and still be searching rather than be fully aware of its enemy if it can't actually see us.

So as was already pointed out, when we notice the flashing red visual cue on our character, we can try backing up while using terrain to prevent the reaper from seeing us. If we can pull it far enough away from nearby monsters without being seen, it will not be able to raise an alarm with its allies. But once it does have line of sight, it will spot us no matter how good our hide score is and also even if invisible.

As far as I can tell, successfully bluffing a monster also prevents it from alarming its allies for a short period, and this may apply to reapers too. This (along with not moving during combat) may allow us to silently kill reapers while they are still within hearing and alarm range of allied monsters, for example, just around a corner.

Unfortunately the range for bluff is less than a reaper's tremorsense detection radius, so sneaking up to them for a bluff pull without something to hide behind will not work. It may be possible to get closer not in stealth if you have visual obstacles, then trying to bluff them, but this might not pull reapers that prefer to keep their distance anyway.

Thanks.

thanks, that line of sight is the key. The kill area must be out of line of sight--dragging them around the corner. They are really stupid and will expose themselves in pursuit.

Not sure about sneaking up on a bluffed reaper but the idea is awesome. The bluff that I had function was with a reaper out of sight.

Will update the OP

[Saekee]

Techniques: Fury of the Wild is key for me in this approach. I use the adrenaline knockdown/helpless proc along with Sense Weakness. twists are Balanced attacks, Stealthy, Rejuv. But as you can see, this is a gimpy build with poor DPS. Still, Sobrien and any isolated mob die eventually due to the adrenaline/balanced attacks combo. I also used an Epic Big Top hat to dance one of the giants. In this way, I safely meleed everything. No deaths; the only damage I took was from the fear reaper I pulled.

This is not an RXP farm as placement of spawns can make a mess of it. It would have been easier with a second player.

Adrenaline Knockdown works on reapers! They just float there but are considered knocked down.




I killed the giants at the entrance after Sobrien (4) then ran into a couple of reapers down the fire tunnel. That was easy. From there I did not run into any so I got lucky; there was a reaper by the section that can be avoided with the Cannith Boots of Propulsion. I found in my r6 run that the penultimate area before the fire trap lever is really hard to get through if a reaper spawns there.
I had 9 kills after stilling the last guardian scorp so I had to kill its little buddy to get to 10.


I plan to run this multiple times until it gets easy.

[blerkington]

This could be a nice epic RXP farm. It would have been easier with a second player.

This is a great achievement, very well done.

But before anyone (including SSG staff) starts to freak out about people 'farming' r10 quests using stealth, I'd just like to make a couple of qualifiers.

* It was 20 minutes plus for slightly over 1100 rxp. There are far more efficient ways to earn rxp completing quests not using stealth.
* Anyone wanting to farm this quest for rxp would have to keep their character at the quest level not to incur a rxp penalty for being overlevel.
* The randomness of the reaper spawns will mean although the quest is completable in 20 minutes or less, there will also be failures requiring restarts.
* This quest is unusual in that it doesn't require a boss to be killed for completion.

So just to be very clear, Saekee, I don't mean to diminish your achievement in any way. But this is not a loophole in the game that needs to be plugged, nor is it an excuse to stop considering the stealth and AI adjustments recently discussed by the Producer.

Thanks.

[Saekee]

This is a great achievement, very well done.

But before anyone (including SSG staff) starts to freak out about people 'farming' r10 quests using stealth, I'd just like to make a couple of qualifiers.

* It was 20 minutes plus for slightly over 1100 rxp. There are far more efficient ways to earn rxp completing quests not using stealth.
* Anyone wanting to farm this quest for rxp would have to keep their character at the quest level not to incur a rxp penalty for being overlevel.
* The randomness of the reaper spawns will mean although the quest is completable in 20 minutes or less, there will also be failures requiring restarts.

So just to be very clear, Saekee, I don't mean to diminish your achievement in any way. But this is not a loophole in the game that needs to be plugged, nor is it a counterargument for reviewing how reapers detect players or an excuse not to stop considering the stealth and AI adjustments recently discussed by the Producer.

Thanks.

totally agreed & thx! Plus there are no named item drops in this quest for reaper boosts like a helm or something. The named stuff that does drop is heroic level & ‘dampened’ so its upgrade would kill any boost anyway.

It was fun to do—my biggest time sink was Sobrien. It is hard to duplicate.

[Saekee]

Fun note—if you have a mob charging full aggro a stealthed assassin, you can hit adrenaline then assassinate. The mainhand procs helpless state then assassinate can proc on offhand. If you fail the assassinate, they are at least lying there on the ground.

[Saekee]

Level 7. I have been exploring lowbie R1-R3 reaper heroics using LawfulGood’s excellent list. The list does not always feature ideal stealth experiments.

With reaper we need 10 kills minimum so when in doubt, I kill isoslated mobs. I am finding it challenging as a melee with low PRR (eventually 6 monk/13 rogue/1 fighter). Stealthing really helps alert yourself to the presence of reapers and then you backtrack and pull them easily. So the reapers have not been an issue—just the occasional insane champ buff combo. Vorpal handwraps. Undead are somewhat challenging too but monk splashes are good for them—monk covers that weak spot well in lower heroics for rogues and the fast attack speed of wraps really makes a difference—from proccing vorpals to stacking up effects feom weaps.

I see some dungeons as easy for a pew pew build like Redwillows whereas others are easy for a fast-punching melee. Faster sneaking stacking is always key because you can sneak as fast as a reaper chases you.

I am envisioning a great assassin build as INT based 1 monk/1 arti/18 rogue in which you swap sometimes to a vorpal light repeater and other quests to wraps with the feat selection towards being an uncentered assassin. For heroics—for epics, a monk thrower as seen by some strong R10 completions by a forumite here. Maybe in fury with melee iption for adrenaline knockdowns.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

IMO, the problem is the new agro system, not Reapers auto-detect.

Plenty of monsters could already do that since the game began.
But stealth was still possible, because they only told their friends your position when you damaged them. (and did not keep broadcasting your position as they ran toward you.)



On another note, I haven't tested recently, but I am pretty sure that monsters no longer hear breaking objects or missiles hitting walls. Another blow to stealthers.


Main problem is agro system.


I can deal just fine with a monster that can detect me......if he doesn't bring the entire dungeon with him.....




On another note. Reapers are too dangerous for me to accurately test, but in the past, spiders and oozes, etc. had a tremor sense to hear you with, and a see everything ability in their viewing arc. Reapers may be similar.

Powers like abundant step did not trigger tremor sense. Plus it has a limited range as well.

[Saekee]

snip.

I will try to look into these things. I think they detect you in a 360 degree arc though. Yes, the problem is with the aggro and essentially that is the challenge in managing the reapers--especially if they sit back and hit you with ranged stuff.

As for noise--it has been awhile since they reacted to breakables--sometimes they check, sometimes not, but I do not expect it. On the other hand, since that recent patch to 'medium range' for noisemakers and flaming spheres, there has been a nice boon. You can melee and kill stuff much more close to enemy mobs that have their backs turned without them attacking you. That includes footfalls etc. So it made isolating mobs much easier. It is an especial boon to assassins.

For example, in the first room of The Snitch, the mobs split to each side of the room. In the past, if I attacked a mob on either side, both sides were alerted. Now, assuming backs are turned, I can take out each side separately.

[Saekee]

I pugged with an archer. In Dead Predators, a reaper spawned at the entrance. As long as we did not take a step, it did not sense us. Kind of Funny.


Here, in a shot of R1 Epic Small Problem, you can see me sneaking up on a reaper in which I am higher up. I can't remember what happened.

[Saekee]

Delera chain ghostly skeletons cause red footfalls tremor alert even when they are unspawned in the ground/coffins. Annoying.

[HuneyMunster]

I fear your underestimating the sneakyness

[Saekee]

I fear your underestimating the sneakyness

hah!

[Sam-u-r-eye]

This workbook makes me drool with delight.
I now have a melee rogue. Tyvm for the help!

[Saekee]

This workbook makes me drool with delight.
I now have a melee rogue. Tyvm for the help!

I am glad but careful of your keyboard!

Cult of the Six Sorrowdusk is a great chain for studying reaper stealth. Long Halls, doors, curving passages and many relatively easy quests.

I am finding melee rogues still too squishy—I got popped by a carnage reaper on R3 too quickly...So we need more PRR. Cheapest PRR is 3 fighter defender but that will prevent adrenaline shots in epics...2 monk opens up iron skin...6 monk is nice with shadow veil but I need a powerful ranged reaper takedown or CC like charm person. That gnome color spray just seems too good but I do not have the race. I really am seeing the best sneal assassin as INT gnome with 1 monk and then either 1 arti for repeater or just take 1 fighter for that proficiency (and gain access to T1 kensei). 18/2 split. Use improved traps too.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Tactics work great in group play on melee. I had a repeater but the dps (3.5k) was bad. Using the same gear I LR'd and now have 16.5k. [I was using needle/morninglords0 and swapped to the new raid daggers.]

That said... I need to LR my sorc so that he has move silently....

yarrr

[Saekee]

Tactics work great in group play on melee. I had a repeater but the dps (3.5k) was bad. Using the same gear I LR'd and now have 16.5k. [I was using needle/morninglords0 and swapped to the new raid daggers.]

That said... I need to LR my sorc so that he has move silently....

yarrr

Oh I was suggesting the repeater for some of the lowbie quests during TRs—a simple keen vorpal ML4 if you have one but not for epics—1 monk for feat and 4 AP for faster sneaking