Here's how to do CC correctly

[silinteresting]

But again, hypothetically, why should luck be preferred over some other system where players are given more control

you do know there is no such thing as luck dont you ?. luck does not exist it has never existed and never will.

please stop.....

your friend sil

[Khalixxa]

you do know there is no such thing as luck dont you ?. luck does not exist it has never existed and never will.

please stop.....

your friend sil

Okay, FINE!

Chance. Randomness. Lack of pattern.

[Vish]

Well, what I'm proposing is an intermediate between "Always Works" and "Never Works" that doesn't have as much of a luck element. CC would "Always Work" in the sense that it will always have at least some small effect (unless the target is immune), but the duration would be pro-rated depending on stat scores.

Well, this is d20 system
1 is fail, 20 is success
2-19 are the luck part
But in combat there is moderation in grazing hits
And in cc there is progression to fail, succeed
You're not going to get a partial effectiveness out of a fail or succeed program
It's not programmed that way
It may make more sense,
But I don't know if it's possible
Lotta dev work...

[Khalixxa]

Well, this is d20 system
1 is fail, 20 is success
2-19 are the luck part
But in combat there is moderation in grazing hits
And in cc there is progression to fail, succeed
You're not going to get a partial effectiveness out of a fail or succeed program
It's not programmed that way
It may make more sense,
But I don't know if it's possible
Lotta dev work...

The changes I'm proposing aren't especially difficult to code. The reason we know this is that they already have similar functions in place for other abilities. For example:

- Spells like Hypnosis and Fear always leave a lingering weakness effect on the target even on a successful save
- AOE damage spells always deal at least half damage (unless the target has Evasion)
- Sleet storm is a CC cast by mobs that always takes effect
- Wail of the Banshee always does level damage even on successful fortitude saves
- Other effects like jumping, running and tumbling aren't subject to any d20 rolls like they would in tabletop D&D

These are all examples of actions that always succeed (to some extent) that everybody seems okay with. I'm not really proposing anything that's radically different from these things. I'm just asking that something be done about CC in general. The idea is that we want players to have more control over the things that are more important, and CC is very important.

[memloch]

The game is based on a dice game. Dice rolling equals luck. As a player you can build your toon to improve your luck. But luck is a fundamental part of d&d.

[Khalixxa]

The game is based on a dice game. Dice rolling equals luck. As a player you can build your toon to improve your luck. But luck is a fundamental part of d&d.

DDO is also based on other MMOs, like Ultima Online and World of Warcraft. Even in D&D, some actions that a player takes are NOT left up to die roll.

This is a quote from the topic post:

I realize that you (the developers) have tried to follow the rules of D&D closely, but there are some times where this hurts the game. The "save" system of D&D exists to control the fine details of task executions since the player simply can't do it themselves in a turn based informal environment. However, in an online MMO, a lot of those details (such as jumping out of the way of a spell, or springing back up from being knocked down) CAN reasonably be controlled, and defaulting to the old D&D system now becomes a denial of control that feels very bad to the player.

I maintain this.

"Status quo" arguments aren't enough to justify bad game mechanics.

And why is the "die-roll" so important to maintaing DDOs "basis in tabletop D&D"? What about all the other changes from D&D that everyone is completely okay with? There are no "Enhancement Trees" or "Epic Destinies" in any version of standard D&D. Where did die-rolls for jumping and moving go? Where did identifying items go?

There are a thousand things that have changed between tabletop D&D and DDO. Why pick the all-or-nothing die rolls of CC to cling to?

I'm not against die-rolls; I'm against die-rolls having the final say in important mechanics like CC when there are better alternatives.

[bls904c2]

The changes I'm proposing aren't especially difficult to code. The reason we know this is that they already have similar functions in place for other abilities. For example:

- Spells like Hypnosis and Fear always leave a lingering weakness effect on the target even on a successful save
- AOE damage spells always deal at least half damage (unless the target has Evasion)
- Sleet storm is a CC cast by mobs that always takes effect
- Wail of the Banshee always does level damage even on successful fortitude saves
- Other effects like jumping, running and tumbling aren't subject to any d20 rolls like they would in tabletop D&D

These are all examples of actions that always succeed (to some extent) that everybody seems okay with. I'm not really proposing anything that's radically different from these things. I'm just asking that something be done about CC in general. The idea is that we want players to have more control over the things that are more important, and CC is very important.

the problem with it , is that enemies do what we do. sleet storm that the enemy does is same as we do. but we can build for it get a pair of FOM boots or pot.

we build with high enough saves so we dont get held or fear or blind. i dont like the fact that we would get blinded for 1 sec or held for 5 seconds.

the enemies have every spell we have and variations of what we have with spells we don't have.

i like saving on a 6 and when i fail on a 5 i know i have to increase the resistance items more or get a few more ability points.

edit

on my cleric i never get held by web because my str is high. but on my arti or rouge i have to use fire shield because my str is abismal.

[Khalixxa]

the problem with it , is that enemies do what we do. sleet storm that the enemy does is same as we do. but we can build for it get a pair of FOM boots or pot.

we build with high enough saves so we dont get held or fear or blind. i dont like the fact that we would get blinded for 1 sec or held for 5 seconds.

the enemies have every spell we have and variations of what we have with spells we don't have.

i like saving on a 6 and when i fail on a 5 i know i have to increase the resistance items more or get a few more ability points.

edit

on my cleric i never get held by web because my str is high. but on my arti or rouge i have to use fire shield because my str is abismal.

To paraphrase: you prefer a system where you can work to become immune to something rather than always being affected by it somewhat. (correct me if otherwise)

Well, of course you would, if you're only interested in making your character stronger. If mobs are throwing fears, stuns and knockdowns at you twenty times a second, of course you're going to need immunity to them. But then there's no game-play added by any of those effects; you can just ignore them. This is the state of the game at present. You MUST have a way of basically ignoring CC passively, because there are no active ways of dealing with them.

The question isn't whether you prefer to get CCd never or CCd some of the time, it's whether CC even functions as a game-play mechanism:

If I see a mob casting a fear on me, do I even care? Can I do anything about it? Can I actively interrupt the cast? Can I actively break out of it if it hits me?

Interrupts and CC breakers exist, but they aren't a mainstream part of the game at all. Most of the time we would just ignore the fear cast and "hope" that we save against it. If we don't, we "hope" that we break out of it soon. There is no step in there where the player has an active choice to make.

In the topic post, the "minimum effect" thing that you're referencing isn't the end of the suggestion. I also mention a need to tone back CC so that it can't be used as often and for as long.

[bls904c2]

To paraphrase: you prefer a system where you can work to become immune to something rather than always being affected by it somewhat. (correct me if otherwise)

Well, of course you would, if you're only interested in making your character stronger. If mobs are throwing fears, stuns and knockdowns at you twenty times a second, of course you're going to need immunity to them. But then there's no game-play added by any of those effects; you can just ignore them. This is the state of the game at present. You MUST have a way of basically ignoring CC passively, because there are no active ways of dealing with them.

The question isn't whether you prefer to get CCd never or CCd some of the time, it's whether CC even functions as a game-play mechanism:

If I see a mob casting a fear on me, do I even care? Can I do anything about it? Can I actively interrupt the cast? Can I actively break out of it if it hits me?

Interrupts and CC breakers exist, but they aren't a mainstream part of the game at all. Most of the time we would just ignore the fear cast and "hope" that we save against it. If we don't, we "hope" that we break out of it soon. There is no step in there where the player has an active choice to make.

In the topic post, the "minimum effect" thing that you're referencing isn't the end of the suggestion. I also mention a need to tone back CC so that it can't be used as often and for as long.

and that is the difference between this game and others that is its niche. if you like wow or elder scrolls online go play never winter that is a D@D game that is closer to those games.

the d20 is what is special about this game. you have to make choices. some skills are going to be min and some are going to be max. i cant get them all max i shouldn't be able to.

because of my weaknesses to my toon i dont do certain quests because he struggles with them, they are the achilies heel of my toon.

the d20 is what keeps every quest in this game from being soloable. my toon should not be a god at level 20 doing mid to high reaper legendary quests because my twitch skills prevent me from being hit or CC.

getting the tools, equipment, weapons, clickies, spells, and the knowledge when to use said items is what makes him a god. not hand eye cordination.

edit

yes i do know that some spells and or attacks have been designed to be able to be blocked. and i am ok with some button pushing skills. block and hiding behind a corner is a great way to stop damage. but that is a measurable amount that is on the charactor sheet and is on the shield you wield. you can build for better defense if you wish.
it is your choice and again it is the equipment you wield not your hand eye cordination

[Khalixxa]

and that is the difference between this game and others that is its niche. if you like wow or elder scrolls online go play never winter that is a D@D game that is closer to those games.

the d20 is what is special about this game. you have to make choices. some skills are going to be min and some are going to be max. i cant get them all max i shouldn't be able to.

because of my weaknesses to my toon i dont do certain quests because he struggles with them, they are the achilies heel of my toon.

the d20 is what keeps every quest in this game from being soloable. my toon should not be a god at level 20 doing mid to high reaper legendary quests because my twitch skills prevent me from being hit or CC.

getting the tools, equipment, weapons, clickies, spells, and the knowledge when to use said items is what makes him a god. not hand eye cordination.

You're giving the d20 credit for things that actually don't require a d20 (or any other RNG) to exist.

By the way, I value all of things you listed as well:

1. Making choices
2. Not being able to have everything
3. Requiring the group
4. Requiring stats rather than purely hand-eye coordination

But, none of these things require the d20.

The "range of outcomes" is what you really value, but a d20 is not necessary to arbitrate those outcomes at all.

[bls904c2]

but i think that is where you and i must disagree.

the d20 seperates the average skill from the exceptional skill.

you have taking the additional steps to prevent mind control where the average has not. increased will saves.

or worked out being stronger so you passsed your strength test in the webs. or smarter used fire shield to burn the webs so you never get caught.

through your choices on the charactor sheet and equipment you wear seperate you from normal adventurers and the exceptional adventures.

the d20 is the randomness that allows for that distiction

[bls904c2]

you are right it is the range of outcomes i like in the d20. and it by some other form that can be built by choices not how good your hand eye is.

i am against twitch skills ( i.e. hand eye) not because i don't have them. I have cheesed my way through enough reaper content that should have been a wipe but i good enough at hand eye to help in a victory.

i am against them because the core of D&D it is our mind and choices that make or toons strong not our hand and eye cordination

[Khalixxa]

A system where averages are used would also have every one of the properties you're describing.

What exactly about the die-roll separates the average skill from the exceptional skill? The die-roll is random; it's outside of the control of the player. I think what you're talking about isn't specifically the die-roll, it's the range of possible outcomes that the die roll currently arbitrates.

If everyone that went to McDonalds rolled dice to determine their order, they couldn't credit the die-rolls for the variety on the menu, could they? I imagine though, if McDonalds did this for long enough, people would have a hard time separating the two things: the die-rolls and the menu variety.

This is what I'm trying to communicate. RNG has absolutely nothing to do intrinsically with any of the positive qualities of DDO that you've mentioned. They can all exist without the d20.

[Khalixxa]

you are right it is the range of outcomes i like in the d20. and it by some other form that can be built by choices not how good your hand eye is.

i am against twitch skills ( i.e. hand eye) not because i don't have them. I have cheesed my way through enough reaper content that should have been a wipe but i good enough at hand eye to help in a victory.

i am against them because the core of D&D it is our mind and choices that make or toons strong not our hand and eye cordination

Alright, I think I see why you're worried.

What I'm suggesting is definitely a greater level of control for the players, which is an increase in the importance of hand-eye coordination. Although, it's not a wholesale change of genre from RPG to FPS either; I'd never want that.

My observation is that, in current DDO, my choices in actual combat barely matter at all, because the dice take control too often. I'm still actively giving the game tons of input, but only a fraction of them end up mattering.

Would it not be more fun if there were a decrease in the number of inputs, but an increase in the importance of those inputs?

[bls904c2]

A system where averages are used would also have every one of the properties you're describing.

What exactly about the die-roll separates the average skill from the exceptional skill? The die-roll is random; it's outside of the control of the player. I think what you're talking about isn't specifically the die-roll, it's the range of possible outcomes that the die roll currently arbitrates.

If everyone that went to McDonalds rolled dice to determine their order, they couldn't credit the die-rolls for the variety on the menu, could they? I imagine though, if McDonalds did this for long enough, people would have a hard time separating the two things: the die-rolls and the menu variety.

This is what I'm trying to communicate. RNG has absolutely nothing to do intrinsically with any of the positive qualities of DDO that you've mentioned. They can all exist without the d20.

the die roll is out side of play control is correct it is the variable that can't be controlled.

at least for the average adventurer. they have a 39 will save and some one casts a spell on them that you have to have 45 to save. they are give fate the choice to decide not them. on a roll of 5 they fail and spell hits. roll of 7 they succeed and spell fails. they leave there score at 39 because of choices because other things are more important to them in their build or just not got the items they are search for yet.

they are average they let the fates decied for them.

me my saves are in the 70s i have no fear of the spell i am resistant to them

i have a choice to leave it to luck and fates hand or i build to be extraordinary.

for me on my epic level 30 toon i have saves in the 100's for will, fort , and reflex.

there is no chance roll i leave nothing to the fates

if you have left your toon to the chance of fate well your toon is average and is subject to the will of fate

[Khalixxa]

Couldn't that scenario still exist in a more deterministic system?

I mean, aside from the "willing it to the fates" part, you'd still have a difference between between average and exceptional based on build choices.

[Tahlee]

3. Don't allow CC to spammed. Players should not be permanently locked in place, and neither should mobs. Put better limits on CC effects, such as shorter maximum duration, longer cooldowns, etc.

Dear OP,

Yes control is fun, and one of the things I really like about being a caster is being able to control a mob. I am working to build a caster that can reliably "lock down" a mob in most content with a high enough DC. I am not quite there yet but am starting to get more success and enjoying it. Playing a traditional style caster I wear robes. My Magical Resistance Rating is hard locked to 50. For my character to survive with some consistency I rely on CC effects to "hold mobs" or they kill me. As such I really dislike your idea of shorter maximum duration and longer cool downs as that would mean I wouldn't be able to stop a mob when I need to nor could I , if i have understood you correctly build my characters DC to a point where I could depend on it ( i feel a distinct lack of control) so I don't like your idea as stated.

Yours Truly
Tahlee

[Khalixxa]

Yes control is fun, and one of the things I really like about being a caster is being able to control a mob. I am working to build a caster that can reliably "lock down" a mob in most content with a high enough DC. I am not quite there yet but am starting to get more success and enjoying it. Playing a traditional style caster I wear robes. My Magical Resistance Rating is hard locked to 50. For my character to survive with some consistency I rely on CC effects to "hold mobs" or they kill me. As such I really dislike your idea of shorter maximum duration and longer cool downs as that would mean I wouldn't be able to stop a mob when I need to nor could I , if i have understood you correctly build my characters DC to a point where I could depend on it ( i feel a distinct lack of control) so I don't like your idea as stated.

It all depends on what limits are put on different CC abilities under a newer system. I didn't give specific details on how each CC ability would be affected, so it's possible for your build to still work.

You said "I rely on CC effects to 'hold mobs' or they kill me". This would actually be more of an issue in the current RNG system than in the kind I'm proposing, since you always have a 5% or greater chance of failure (and getting killed). In a deterministic system, your CC would work more predictably, although you wouldn't be able to CC things forever.

(On a side note: when I said "control is fun" I was referring literally to our ability to control our characters actions. I wasn't talking specifically about CC yet.)

Would you rather be able to:

1. Spam CC effects that have a random chance of failure

or

2. Use CC effects more strategically (and less often) that always succeed to some extent

[cpw_acc]

Exactly. If you don't like the suggestions forums, where people come to suggest changes to improve the game, you can go to a different forum.

"Improve" is rather a subjective term.

Your first post also implied to me that you wanted to remove all 'randomness' based on character stats and replace that with success/failure based on player ability. To me that just sounds like turning DDO from an role-playing game into a FPS or similar. DDO, as an RPG, is based on the table-top game genre, and that is all about creating a character and then playing an adventure where your success/failure chances at a task is based on that character (not you as a player).
Creating a character with the abilities I want is part of why I like RPGs and I wouldn't want that to change in DDO. I want my character to be able to hit something with his sword because my character is good at hitting things with swords, not because I have fast (or not) reflexes with my mouse.

However, your later clarifications make more sense. You are suggesting that spells, namely CC spells, shouldn't be all or nothing, but should have some kind of effect regardless of stats? Is that about the gist of it?
I think this also boils down to the fact that DDO is based on Dungeons&Dungeons table top game, and this is the way most spells work. There are some exceptions with spells, SLAs and abilities where a successful save still inflicts some kind of penalty, but these are the exception rather than the main.

It would make sense to me if, for example, the Hold Monster spell held a monster that failed its save and merely temporarily slowed a monster that saved. But how far do we stray from the core tenets of Dungeons&Dragons? (I know, I know, many things have already strayed from that due to the logistics of making a turn-based game into a real-time one etc etc).

[FestusHood]

Couldn't we improve poker by making it more like chess? Even old timey wargames i used to play had random elements to the combat involving a die roll. You could improve your odds, but only overwhelming numbers could make an outcome certain.