Here's how to do CC correctly

[Khalixxa]

I realize that you (the developers) have tried to follow the rules of D&D closely, but there are some times where this hurts the game. The "save" system of D&D exists to control the fine details of task executions since the player simply can't do it themselves in a turn based informal environment. However, in an online MMO, a lot of those details (such as jumping out of the way of a spell, or springing back up from being knocked down) CAN reasonably be controlled, and defaulting to the old D&D system now becomes a denial of control that feels very bad to the player.

Currently, you have random rolls (luck) controlling too many of the things that players should have control over, such as recovering from crowd control and applying crowd control. Players have no clue what their chances of their spells succeeding actually are, and they often have to spam them to get them to work. This is the opposite of fun. Also, players can be locked in place by stuns, paralysis or dance effects for long periods of time with no recourse. This is also the opposite of fun.

Control is what makes games different from just watching a movie. We (the players) want our button presses to feel important. Overall, the effects of luck on crowd control need to be diminished, and here's how to do that:

1. When it comes to spells/abilities that cause crowd control effects, unless the target is obviously immune to them, they should ALWAYS take some effect, but have a duration that depends on the old DC and saves. Not all abilities have to work the same either. You could have saves cause half duration for some abilities. You could have the saves get stronger and stronger every few seconds for other abilities that allow a "new save every X seconds". You could have a base duration plus a secondary duration based on what the save probability would have been for some abilities. The point is to reduce the effects of luck.

2. CC breakers need to be a thing. There are very few of them in the game, and the ones that do exist don't even work properly. This is very unfortunate, since CC breakers (like combo breakers) are very fun for players. Rather than forcing players (and mobs) to wait and do nothing for the duration that they are stunned, give them a selection of things they can do. There are a ton of abilities already in the game that you can just put a "CC break" effect onto with ease. Give players control; control is fun.

3. Don't allow CC to spammed. Players should not be permanently locked in place, and neither should mobs. Put better limits on CC effects, such as shorter maximum duration, longer cooldowns, etc.

[SirValentine]

Currently, you have random rolls (luck) controlling too many of the things that players should have control over, such as recovering from crowd control and applying crowd control.

No, currently we have character's abilities controlling things, rather than just player reflexes. This is what is known as a "role-playing" game.

I don't have to be strong to play a hulking barbarian, or charismatic to play a smooth-talking bard, or have fast-twitching fingers to jump out of the way of a fireball. This is A Good Thing (TM).

Perhaps you'd prefer more of a 1st-person-shooter game than an role-playing game?

Control is what makes games different from just watching a movie.

Using the character abilities rather than player abilities is what makes RPGs different from almost all of us just not playing in, say, the Olympics or the NBA.

[Khalixxa]

SirValentine,

That's not quite the point I was trying to make.

I have no issue with character stats determining the outcomes of play. My issue is with luck. Luck plays too important of a role, which denies both the player and the character agency.

Character stats are fine. Too much dependence on chance isn't. You can have one without the other.

[HungarianRhapsody]

SirValentine,

That's not quite the point I was trying to make.

I have no issue with character stats determining the outcomes of play. My issue is with luck. Luck plays too important of a role, which denies both the player and the character agency.

Character stats are fine. Too much dependence on chance isn't. You can have one without the other.

Get your saves up enough or get your DCs up enough and you'll have a lot less dependence on chance. Luck doesn't have to play as much of a role if you choose to build your characters differently and/or play on a different difficulty level.

[Wh070aa]

Half of the mobs have one kind of CC immunity or another, and bosses are immune to like all of it.

Being able to CC trash forever is a ting players should be able to do. Because lets be honest CC-ing trash is worse than instantly killing them in most cases.

And you have plenty of CC breaking things. Freedom of movement, fire shield, manually evading, Harper pin, Harper tree, Class enchantments (lots of forms give you immunity to CC types), Epic enchantments, epic feats(I think its bugged but meh), Greater heroism, protection from evil (potions or spell , items are bugged). Like as long as you have Greater heroism, Freedom of movement and protection form evil going, only real trouble you will have is tripping dogs, that you can manually avoid, or should have enough saves to not get tripped, or spiderwebs, that you need fire shield for.

Just get your eternal potion of Freedom of movement next time it's available from an event or something.

IMO CC is just like having heavy fort and death block/death ward. You should be ready for it, or you not gonna have any fun.

As for CC not having any effect, well its a real problem. You can try to Git good and minmax your spell DC's, or switch to different build, Or do like Shiradi spammer/whatever melee CC build is applicable for CC. Or make friends with someone who can do it.

[PsychoBlonde]

If you want to play a different game, go play a different game.

[Khalixxa]

Get your saves up enough or get your DCs up enough and you'll have a lot less dependence on chance. Luck doesn't have to play as much of a role if you choose to build your characters differently and/or play on a different difficulty level.

I'm glad someone brought this up.

If your ability DC exceeds the save of the target by 20, it succeeds at the maximum rate. If the save of the target exceeds your ability DC by 20 or more, it succeeds at the minimum rate. But if the difference is less than 20, there are varying "chances" of success, and players have no clue what the saves of their targets are, so they have no idea what numbers they need to shoot for.

Why is this "luck" system preferable to a more deterministic one where the ability always succeeds to a degree depending on the DC and saves?

Luck is arguably inextricable from games (there's always some stuff you can't predict), but in DDO, it's deliberately injected it into every calculation. No matter how you slice it, this is a denial of control to some degree, either large or small.

[Khalixxa]

I'm NOT saying any of the following:

"CC is too hard!"
"How do I CC better?"
"How do I get CCd less?"

I'm talking about "luck" and the game's current injection of "luck" into CC calculations.

[Wh070aa]

I'm NOT saying any of the following:

"CC is too hard!"
"How do I CC better?"
"How do I get CCd less?"

I'm talking about "luck" and the game's current injection of "luck" into CC calculations.

Hell no. we have 5% chance to autofail everything already. Don't need more luck than that.

[Enoach]

Other considerations often overlooked by those "crunching the numbers" is the fact that not all CC works off the same save.

IE, while most is Will Based, there are several that use different saves such as Fortitude, Reflex and even Strength.

Part of the players job is to figure out which is more effective. IE what spell gives me the best advantage against what I'm casting against.


Another thing to keep in mind is that no matter what your DC or Saves are the system has a 5% working for or against you.

IE even if you DC is 20+ higher then the save, if the saving throw is a natural 20 the player/mob saves

Or even if your DC are not high enough or your saves exceed by 20+ rolling a natural 1 the player/mob fails (Now there are exceptions to this rule in play that do remove the natural 1 equals fail)

--
I disagree that Luck should not be a factor in the DC/Save system. Lucks part is what prevents abilities from being totally useless or totally effective all the time. To me that would be the part the would rob the fun.

Also, the "Luck" part of the formula is controlled to a point by the player. We either give ourselves a bigger window by having high saves, or we reduce the window to about 5% chance by upping our DCs or by "debuffing" the mobs saves.

[Khalixxa]

Hell no. we have 5% chance to autofail everything already. Don't need more luck than that.

I agree.

What were you saying "Hell no" to?

[Khalixxa]

I disagree that Luck should not be a factor in the DC/Save system. Lucks part is what prevents abilities from being totally useless or totally effective all the time. To me that would be the part the would rob the fun.

Also, the "Luck" part of the formula is controlled to a point by the player. We either give ourselves a bigger window by having high saves, or we reduce the window to about 5% chance by upping our DCs or by "debuffing" the mobs saves.

Why does "luck" have to fill that role? Why not something else that gives players more control? Why not use a more deterministic system of moderating the effects, such as the ones I listed in the topic post?

Sure, part of the formula is controlled by the player, but players can't see the stats of the thing they're fighting.

[Enoach]

Why does "luck" have to fill that role? Why not something else that gives players more control? Why not use a more deterministic system of moderating the effects, such as the ones I listed in the topic post?

Sure, part of the formula is controlled by the player, but players can't see the stats of the thing they're fighting.

We can with the monster manual . {shoot did I just do a sales pitch}

Just to be clear I do point out why Luck should be a part of the formula. Nothing should be 100%, either 100% effective or 100% not useful.

[PsychoBlonde]

We can with the monster manual . {shoot did I just do a sales pitch}

Just to be clear I do point out why Luck should be a part of the formula. Nothing should be 100%, either 100% effective or 100% not useful.

Indeed. You don't, never will, and never should, have 100% control over every aspect of the game.

What's next? I don't like crits, I can't control when they show up, I want an automatic crit button.

I don't like damage rolls. I should always do maximum damage.

I don't like these special procs. Vorpal effects should work on EVERY hit, not just a 20. And you should never miss. Calculating hits and misses is lame!

Sometimes my attacks miss because a monster moved! I don't have control over that! Arrows should change direction in mid-air!

I should get all the named loot from the quest every time I run the quest! Random loot drops suck!

How about we just give you win button that you can press to win the game and you can move on?

The difference between this game and other games out there is that you CAN spam CC in this game--so, yes, sometimes you kinda have to. That's the point. If you want "perfect" CC, it's going to be on a long-enough cooldown that you won't be ABLE to use it every time you would like to. And you're going to run out of CC breakers FREQUENTLY, since there are more mobs than PC's pretty much all the time in this game.

[PsychoBlonde]

We can with the monster manual . {shoot did I just do a sales pitch}

Just to be clear I do point out why Luck should be a part of the formula. Nothing should be 100%, either 100% effective or 100% not useful.

You don't need the monster manual, you can just test it and use this wonderful invention known as "your brain" to figure out what is and isn't effective.

[PsychoBlonde]

Why does "luck" have to fill that role? Why not something else that gives players more control? Why not use a more deterministic system of moderating the effects, such as the ones I listed in the topic post?

Sure, part of the formula is controlled by the player, but players can't see the stats of the thing they're fighting.

Because this is the literal basis of the entire game setup. If you don't like that style of game, go play a different game. The end. I don't like first person shooters much, so I don't play them. I also don't go to the forums for FPS games and say "why do I have to aim my shots?! This is dumb, the computer should just do the math and decide whether I hit or not!"

Heck, most FPS games have a "random wobble" in your aiming (sometimes mitigated by various investments), because perfect mechanical aim is DEGENERATE. (Degenerate meaning "pointlessly boring").

[Khalixxa]

If you don't like that style of game, go play a different game.

Exactly. If you don't like the suggestions forums, where people come to suggest changes to improve the game, you can go to a different forum.

[Khalixxa]

We can with the monster manual . {shoot did I just do a sales pitch}

Just to be clear I do point out why Luck should be a part of the formula. Nothing should be 100%, either 100% effective or 100% not useful.

But again, hypothetically, why should luck be preferred over some other system where players are given more control?

I'd understand if there were truly no better thing that anyone could think of, which is perhaps the case for tabletop D&D, but there are tons of other MMOs (Elder scrolls, World of Warcraft, Star Wars: The Old Republic, just to name a few) that wouldn't dare to allow something as important as CC to fall out of player control.

Imagine that we had some deterministic system for CC effects. Do you think that players would consider the injection of luck to be an improvement?

[Enoach]

But again, hypothetically, why should luck be preferred over some other system where players are given more control?

I'd understand if there were truly no better thing that anyone could think of, which is perhaps the case for tabletop D&D, but there are tons of other MMOs (Elder scrolls, World of Warcraft, Star Wars: The Old Republic, just to name a few) that wouldn't dare to allow something as important as CC to fall out of player control.

Imagine that we had some deterministic system for CC effects. Do you think that players would consider the injection of luck to be an improvement?

What other system are you thinking of that would prevent 100% results? Luck in this case adds a measure of chance, in life even the most perfect plans fail. I've seen "dream teams" get clobbered by what others would call "hacks".

I don't know that there is a better/fairer way but to have an aspect that is not in the players control. What we are calling luck here is that "chaotic" part of our actions that keeps us both in awe as well as humble.

Just as a note this is not a "hypothetical" discussion. We are discussing what is and is not under the players control when it comes to DCs and the ability of success based on those DCs. I think in order to discuss "hypothetically" we would have to show an alternative. To me right now based on what you have outlined we would be creating a situation where either something "Always Works" or "Never Works". I am not in favor of "All or Nothing" systems.

[Khalixxa]

What other system are you thinking of that would prevent 100% results?

I enumerated an outline of one in the topic post. It uses the existing "DC versus save" mechanism to determine how long a CC lasts, rather than whether it works or doesn't work. And it uses active methods rather than passive methods to control when CC falls off and how often it can be applied.

For example, under a new system Spinning Ice freezes targets (unless they are immune) for the mean average time that it would have under the old system. So, if I'm a lvl 20 Bard, my DC is 60 and the target's fortitude saves are 70, that would be a 50% freeze chance for 10 seconds under the old system. Under the new system, this would be a guaranteed 5 second freeze against that target (50% multiplied by 10).

If you're worried about targets getting frozen forever under this system, keep in mind that this already happens anyways, and it's not a new problem introduced by anything I'm suggesting. Multiple bards can already permanently freeze things, which is why I have part (3).

Luck in this case adds a measure of chance, in life even the most perfect plans fail. I've seen "dream teams" get clobbered by what others would call "hacks".

Are you okay with us having a 100% success rate on grabbing onto ledges?

Are you okay with offensive spells always doing at least half damage, even on reflex saves (most of the time)?

If you're okay with some things always succeeding or always partially succeeding, I don't think what I'm proposing is too different.

I don't know that there is a better/fairer way but to have an aspect that is not in the players control. What we are calling luck here is that "chaotic" part of our actions that keeps us both in awe as well as humble.

In many other MMOs (Black Desert Online, World of Warcraft, Elder Scrolls, Star Wars: The Old Republic, etc.) it's standard for important effects like CC to have a partially guaranteed effect. They never "randomly fail" like they do in DDO. Randomness is fine, but you can't let it be more important than player choices.

Just as a note this is not a "hypothetical" discussion. We are discussing what is and is not under the players control when it comes to DCs and the ability of success based on those DCs. I think in order to discuss "hypothetically" we would have to show an alternative. To me right now based on what you have outlined we would be creating a situation where either something "Always Works" or "Never Works". I am not in favor of "All or Nothing" systems.

Well, what I'm proposing is an intermediate between "Always Works" and "Never Works" that doesn't have as much of a luck element. CC would "Always Work" in the sense that it will always have at least some small effect (unless the target is immune), but the duration would be pro-rated depending on stat scores.

Does that make more sense?