Here's how to do CC correctly

[Khalixxa]

I realize that you (the developers) have tried to follow the rules of D&D closely, but there are some times where this hurts the game. The "save" system of D&D exists to control the fine details of task executions since the player simply can't do it themselves in a turn based informal environment. However, in an online MMO, a lot of those details (such as jumping out of the way of a spell, or springing back up from being knocked down) CAN reasonably be controlled, and defaulting to the old D&D system now becomes a denial of control that feels very bad to the player.

Currently, you have random rolls (luck) controlling too many of the things that players should have control over, such as recovering from crowd control and applying crowd control. Players have no clue what their chances of their spells succeeding actually are, and they often have to spam them to get them to work. This is the opposite of fun. Also, players can be locked in place by stuns, paralysis or dance effects for long periods of time with no recourse. This is also the opposite of fun.

Control is what makes games different from just watching a movie. We (the players) want our button presses to feel important. Overall, the effects of luck on crowd control need to be diminished, and here's how to do that:

1. When it comes to spells/abilities that cause crowd control effects, unless the target is obviously immune to them, they should ALWAYS take some effect, but have a duration that depends on the old DC and saves. Not all abilities have to work the same either. You could have saves cause half duration for some abilities. You could have the saves get stronger and stronger every few seconds for other abilities that allow a "new save every X seconds". You could have a base duration plus a secondary duration based on what the save probability would have been for some abilities. The point is to reduce the effects of luck.

2. CC breakers need to be a thing. There are very few of them in the game, and the ones that do exist don't even work properly. This is very unfortunate, since CC breakers (like combo breakers) are very fun for players. Rather than forcing players (and mobs) to wait and do nothing for the duration that they are stunned, give them a selection of things they can do. There are a ton of abilities already in the game that you can just put a "CC break" effect onto with ease. Give players control; control is fun.

3. Don't allow CC to spammed. Players should not be permanently locked in place, and neither should mobs. Put better limits on CC effects, such as shorter maximum duration, longer cooldowns, etc.

[SirValentine]

Currently, you have random rolls (luck) controlling too many of the things that players should have control over, such as recovering from crowd control and applying crowd control.

No, currently we have character's abilities controlling things, rather than just player reflexes. This is what is known as a "role-playing" game.

I don't have to be strong to play a hulking barbarian, or charismatic to play a smooth-talking bard, or have fast-twitching fingers to jump out of the way of a fireball. This is A Good Thing (TM).

Perhaps you'd prefer more of a 1st-person-shooter game than an role-playing game?

Control is what makes games different from just watching a movie.

Using the character abilities rather than player abilities is what makes RPGs different from almost all of us just not playing in, say, the Olympics or the NBA.

[Khalixxa]

SirValentine,

That's not quite the point I was trying to make.

I have no issue with character stats determining the outcomes of play. My issue is with luck. Luck plays too important of a role, which denies both the player and the character agency.

Character stats are fine. Too much dependence on chance isn't. You can have one without the other.

[HungarianRhapsody]

SirValentine,

That's not quite the point I was trying to make.

I have no issue with character stats determining the outcomes of play. My issue is with luck. Luck plays too important of a role, which denies both the player and the character agency.

Character stats are fine. Too much dependence on chance isn't. You can have one without the other.

Get your saves up enough or get your DCs up enough and you'll have a lot less dependence on chance. Luck doesn't have to play as much of a role if you choose to build your characters differently and/or play on a different difficulty level.

[Wh070aa]

Half of the mobs have one kind of CC immunity or another, and bosses are immune to like all of it.

Being able to CC trash forever is a ting players should be able to do. Because lets be honest CC-ing trash is worse than instantly killing them in most cases.

And you have plenty of CC breaking things. Freedom of movement, fire shield, manually evading, Harper pin, Harper tree, Class enchantments (lots of forms give you immunity to CC types), Epic enchantments, epic feats(I think its bugged but meh), Greater heroism, protection from evil (potions or spell , items are bugged). Like as long as you have Greater heroism, Freedom of movement and protection form evil going, only real trouble you will have is tripping dogs, that you can manually avoid, or should have enough saves to not get tripped, or spiderwebs, that you need fire shield for.

Just get your eternal potion of Freedom of movement next time it's available from an event or something.

IMO CC is just like having heavy fort and death block/death ward. You should be ready for it, or you not gonna have any fun.

As for CC not having any effect, well its a real problem. You can try to Git good and minmax your spell DC's, or switch to different build, Or do like Shiradi spammer/whatever melee CC build is applicable for CC. Or make friends with someone who can do it.

[PsychoBlonde]

If you want to play a different game, go play a different game.

[Khalixxa]

I'm NOT saying any of the following:

"CC is too hard!"
"How do I CC better?"
"How do I get CCd less?"

I'm talking about "luck" and the game's current injection of "luck" into CC calculations.

[Khalixxa]

Get your saves up enough or get your DCs up enough and you'll have a lot less dependence on chance. Luck doesn't have to play as much of a role if you choose to build your characters differently and/or play on a different difficulty level.

I'm glad someone brought this up.

If your ability DC exceeds the save of the target by 20, it succeeds at the maximum rate. If the save of the target exceeds your ability DC by 20 or more, it succeeds at the minimum rate. But if the difference is less than 20, there are varying "chances" of success, and players have no clue what the saves of their targets are, so they have no idea what numbers they need to shoot for.

Why is this "luck" system preferable to a more deterministic one where the ability always succeeds to a degree depending on the DC and saves?

Luck is arguably inextricable from games (there's always some stuff you can't predict), but in DDO, it's deliberately injected it into every calculation. No matter how you slice it, this is a denial of control to some degree, either large or small.

[Enoach]

Other considerations often overlooked by those "crunching the numbers" is the fact that not all CC works off the same save.

IE, while most is Will Based, there are several that use different saves such as Fortitude, Reflex and even Strength.

Part of the players job is to figure out which is more effective. IE what spell gives me the best advantage against what I'm casting against.


Another thing to keep in mind is that no matter what your DC or Saves are the system has a 5% working for or against you.

IE even if you DC is 20+ higher then the save, if the saving throw is a natural 20 the player/mob saves

Or even if your DC are not high enough or your saves exceed by 20+ rolling a natural 1 the player/mob fails (Now there are exceptions to this rule in play that do remove the natural 1 equals fail)

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I disagree that Luck should not be a factor in the DC/Save system. Lucks part is what prevents abilities from being totally useless or totally effective all the time. To me that would be the part the would rob the fun.

Also, the "Luck" part of the formula is controlled to a point by the player. We either give ourselves a bigger window by having high saves, or we reduce the window to about 5% chance by upping our DCs or by "debuffing" the mobs saves.

[Tahlee]

3. Don't allow CC to spammed. Players should not be permanently locked in place, and neither should mobs. Put better limits on CC effects, such as shorter maximum duration, longer cooldowns, etc.

Dear OP,

Yes control is fun, and one of the things I really like about being a caster is being able to control a mob. I am working to build a caster that can reliably "lock down" a mob in most content with a high enough DC. I am not quite there yet but am starting to get more success and enjoying it. Playing a traditional style caster I wear robes. My Magical Resistance Rating is hard locked to 50. For my character to survive with some consistency I rely on CC effects to "hold mobs" or they kill me. As such I really dislike your idea of shorter maximum duration and longer cool downs as that would mean I wouldn't be able to stop a mob when I need to nor could I , if i have understood you correctly build my characters DC to a point where I could depend on it ( i feel a distinct lack of control) so I don't like your idea as stated.

Yours Truly
Tahlee

[Khalixxa]

Yes control is fun, and one of the things I really like about being a caster is being able to control a mob. I am working to build a caster that can reliably "lock down" a mob in most content with a high enough DC. I am not quite there yet but am starting to get more success and enjoying it. Playing a traditional style caster I wear robes. My Magical Resistance Rating is hard locked to 50. For my character to survive with some consistency I rely on CC effects to "hold mobs" or they kill me. As such I really dislike your idea of shorter maximum duration and longer cool downs as that would mean I wouldn't be able to stop a mob when I need to nor could I , if i have understood you correctly build my characters DC to a point where I could depend on it ( i feel a distinct lack of control) so I don't like your idea as stated.

It all depends on what limits are put on different CC abilities under a newer system. I didn't give specific details on how each CC ability would be affected, so it's possible for your build to still work.

You said "I rely on CC effects to 'hold mobs' or they kill me". This would actually be more of an issue in the current RNG system than in the kind I'm proposing, since you always have a 5% or greater chance of failure (and getting killed). In a deterministic system, your CC would work more predictably, although you wouldn't be able to CC things forever.

(On a side note: when I said "control is fun" I was referring literally to our ability to control our characters actions. I wasn't talking specifically about CC yet.)

Would you rather be able to:

1. Spam CC effects that have a random chance of failure

or

2. Use CC effects more strategically (and less often) that always succeed to some extent

[Enoach]

...
2. Use CC effects more strategically (and less often) that always succeed to some extent

My problem comes with the "always" part of this phrase.

"always" is a dangerous place and has a tendency to lean towards "All or Nothing" and also limits development of challenging situations.

[Khalixxa]

My problem comes with the "always" part of this phrase.

"always" is a dangerous place and has a tendency to lean towards "All or Nothing" and also limits development of challenging situations.

For the most part, the system for CC currently in DDO is "all or nothing" where die-rolls have the final say. (I don't think it can get much worse than that.)

Also, if "always" is problematic on it's own, how do you explain the things that already exist in DDO that "always" succeed? (I did say "to some extent" in the quote)

[zehnvhex]

Hi,

I think a lot of people simply don't understand what you're suggesting. Too stuck in the way things have always been "IE: If you don't like it go play something else."

People are focusing too much on the 'it should always do something' and thinking "What, it should always land? Huh? RABBLE RABBLE! This guy wants ez moad!" A better way to put it would be "I'd like more/all abilities to have a fallback condition like Crushing Despair and Finger of Death do."

That is to say, even if you fail your Trip DC, maybe it should at least still cause the mob to stumble for a few seconds unless you roll a 1. If a mob resists web it should still be slowed for a few seconds or at least until it's out of the web, etc...

It's indeed frustrating and unfun for someone to cast a spell and for nothing to happen. Psycho gave the "What, do you want an automatic crit button?" but that's not really the case. In DDO if something has enough fortification to not get crit you still get to hit it. So a more apt comparison would be if they changed it so that a crit blocked by fortification is now considered a miss.

Not exactly fun now is it?

I don't think longer cooldowns on CC are necessary but I wouldn't mind seeing "CC immunity" granted if you've been CC'd for longer than, say, 12 seconds out of every 30. Mobs gain immunity after 40 out of 60 seconds (scaling down to can only be CC'd for 5 seconds every 15 or something). Champions are half that (20 out of 30 down to 2 every 7).

You'd also probably have to make a distinction between the three types of CC as well. Slowing something shouldn't impact as much as making it helpless for example. So instead of seconds, maybe some kind of hidden meter that fills and when it's full the mob/player gets immunity?

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For example, every second I'm held grants me 10 points towards immunity while being webbed would only grants like, 7 points per second while slow would be 2 points per second. Once I hit 100 immunity points all CC's last 2 more seconds (mostly for mob consideration, would suck to cast a CC only to have it immediately break because they hit immunity) and then I break all CC's and am immune for 15 seconds.

Having multiple CC's only the highest per second one would contribute so if I was held, webbed AND slowed it would still only be 10 per second.

---

As for CC breaking I think silver pin is good enough combined with the above immunity grants.

----

All combined this creates a scenario where getting saves and DC's are still really important, but not the "all or nothing" system we have now with luck being a major factor for a minor band. Something like this is also -significantly- new player friendly without really drastically increasing veteran power which is something I feel we can all agree DDO needs.

It would be a lot of work and a major departure from PnP though so I doubt we'd ever see something like it. It would be too much like a video game and I'm pretty sure they aren't allowed to do it.

So yeah, all of this will never happen. Get used to the all or nothing saves/DC casting system we oh so get to enjoy now. ^_^