U38 Preview 2: Artificer

[edrein]

@edrein - I personally don't see the need of RM allowing for Medium Armor Swashbuckler. You are already allowed to take advantage of the RM and Swashbuckler abilities together, and the defensive logics are completely different. Swashbuckling is all about being light on your feat with light armors and light weapons, while RM is about replacing your body with robotic (constructed) parts and those simply being tougher than flesh. Though unless they restrict Embed and Paragon to Addy/Medium+, you can already take advantage of almost everything RM has to offer while swashing in light armor.

The cores themselves necessitate the switch to medium armor. Combined with the fact Embed Contruct locks you out of evasion entirely. It'd be better to have a small little exceptionary effect here. The same as Arcane Marauder, Cannoner, and Skirmisher add exceptions to the Swashbuckling stance to add additional offhand options. The idea is to allow the splashed build to use medium armor as they've already traded away the arguably 'better' defense of not getting hit for HP, etc.

[Steelstar]

Is there still a chance that we can get a small change pushed into Embed Component? I'd like to see a cross over point for Swashbuckler. I'd like it if you could take Embed Component or even T5 Paragon Body and swashbuckler while in medium armor. You've given up your evasion altogether, but you maintain the original theme of tabletop Swashbuckler which is blinding speed with your hands. 'Cyborg' hands are going to be deft enough. This would open a nice door for interesting multiclass options in my opinion, and reinforce the original idea of Music Box in Swashbuckler.

We are very unlikely to ever allow Swashbuckling in Medium or Heavy armor.

[edrein]

We are very unlikely to ever allow Swashbuckling in Medium or Heavy armor.

I was stating medium not heavy, but can you care to explain why?

As I see it; it's no different than splashing 6 fighter for the same benefits. Sure it's a smaller investment level wise but it also has the same amount of trade offs and gains.

[Claver]

As a qualitative statement renegade master maker now "feels" better....battle fist helps

When the changes to Battle Engineer came along I made a gnome iconic 1 wizard/ 14 artificer bastard sword rune arm user. I ended up setting him aside because he just didn't do enough melee damage and lacked enough defense to go toe to toe

He feels playable (and fun) now that I can mix in battle fist/mighty slam as one more melee attack on timer to go along with thundershock and caustic strike. Having just a few more activated attacks seems to be making a big difference in how he feels to play. The increased defenses and self repair are essential as well in order for this character to survive in melee

I was also happy with renegade master maker as a purely defensive component converting my level 30 blade forged paladin over to a 14 paladin/ 6 artificer.

I'm not saying improvements are not needed. I'm saying that sometimes you get behind the wheel of a car for a test drive and you like how the car handles on the road - independent of any consideration of the cars price, reliability, mpg relative to other vehicles

I'll leave it to others to fine tune and balance DC/damage etc.

[TDarkchylde]

For those curious, here's what Mighty Slam (which will use the normal Stun animation) followed by Battlefist (which is getting the new animation seen below) is going to look like:

Pardon my French, but... aw, hell! If nothing else, that's a sick animation! Not gonna lie, that alone is almost enough to get me to convert one of my current Artis to a melee.

[DrawingGuy]

The cores themselves necessitate the switch to medium armor. Combined with the fact Embed Contruct locks you out of evasion entirely. It'd be better to have a small little exceptionary effect here. The same as Arcane Marauder, Cannoner, and Skirmisher add exceptions to the Swashbuckling stance to add additional offhand options. The idea is to allow the splashed build to use medium armor as they've already traded away the arguably 'better' defense of not getting hit for HP, etc.

There's no question that allowing for Medium armor would be stronger for anyone that does not take Evasion on a Swashbuckler build, but that still goes against the light and nimble premise of Swashbuckler. Swash already gets Dex cap benefits for Light armors, which is the same as the RM cores anyways. And the Alchemical Shield is only a permanent Shield spell (if not a much weaker version if it doesn't also protect against other missile types and grazing hit reduction like the Shield spell does) which you can get either via Shielding Construct or wands/scrolls.

In short, you don't need Medium/Heavy armor to properly take advantage of RM, but to allow for Medium Armor for Swashbuckler would break the prestige premise and affect balance for that tree. While the latter could be debated, I feel the original logic/lore should hold fast.

That said, Fighter vs Swash is a difficult debate. Swash gives you crit profiles with just a 2nd core, while Fighter takes T5 (Either fighter or BE, excluding you from the 20% HP) and 3rd core investment - a much heavier price. Up to you if you go for the cheap investment that has weapon/armor restrictions, or dive deeper into a different class to lift the weapon/armor restrictions, but cost you T5s and arty levels. There are of course more pros and cons when comparing the two -- if Battlefist used Spell Power instead of Melee Power, there would be nice synergy with the proc damage of Swash for example -- but balancing those choices (and millions of others) and making your own builds is a large part of what makes DDO great imo.


Ultimately Renegade Mastermaker is still sitting in the "not quite" position for me. Not quite a healer as Infusions are too clunky to use in combat, and Repair is too restricted - making my suggested change to the Aura to allow for 50% repair healing will go a long way to making it more natural. Also it doesn't quite save the Melee Artificer -- while the extra cleave and CC helps greatly, the single target nature in the mob swarm environment that is DDO is not enough to outweigh DPS investments or simply sticking to the safety of ranged. And lastly it doesn't really fill a tank role as the shield bonuses don't outweigh an actual shield, Intimidate is not a class skill and it is not getting an intim alternate, and its PRR/MRR gains fall short of Pally/Fighter. It does put itself in the running as a cross-class for tanking, but still would like to see it get a reliable taunt. My suggestion would be to replace the skills or toughness with an "Alarm Construct" (or "Klaxon") that does an Intimidate using the Disable Device skill.

While those two changes wouldn't put melee artificer in a DPS role (unless changes to melee combat to balance Reaper affects that), being able to properly use its toughness advantages to tank with a viable intimidate along with making aura and repair spells at least half useful to the party could create a fun alternative to cleric tanks, or at least a better support type role.

[thunir]

Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by [15/30/50]%.

Why is this being singled out for Warforged? Embedded component works with Construct essence, why doesn't Reinforced armor?

[DrawingGuy]

Reinforced Armor: The Armor Class bonus you gain from armor or docents is increased by [15/30/50]%.

Why is this being singled out for Warforged? Embedded component works with Construct essence, why doesn't Reinforced armor?

Reinforced Armor works for everyone, and is not being singled out to Warforged. As long as you're wearing armor or a docent that gives some armor AC value, that will be getting boosted by this ability.

[slarden]

I thought the last version of the tree made more sense. I give this tree a C+. It has some merit for splashing, but not as good for a pure arti or a build with heavy arti levels.

just comparing this to 11 cleric 6 fighter 3 swashbuckler strength domain light axe stength divine might build in shadow dancer u38 you have evasion with high reflex save, knockdown immunity, immunity to stuns, great tactics, and great self healing. Pretty much superior in every way to a renegade master 20 arti.

this tree was shaping up to be a nice warforged bladeforged or fleshy turned machine int build melee tree, but now lost that. Seems like it might make a good splash for pal 15 arti 5 bladeforged for more hp and repair amp.

[Jetrule]

I feel I may be missing something in my two attempts to utilize the arti changes. The melee warforged variant of pure arti I tried used tier 5 and 41 points BE and 12 points in warforged to get the most melee power I could. It also used 12 points in harper to make a int based build that couldnt have int to damage dispelled. This left 16 points for R.M.M ( I have one free racial enhancement point) I used the 16 RMM points for a melee cleave and 15% hit point bonus. (By the way we need to fix not being able to target players with the cure infussions). I was impressed with the builds dps and utility especially with the new ice rune arm freezing and the raw dps of Knives eternal. The rune arm dps and the very good cc potential make up for the lowerweapon dps of arti, compared to say a pure or mostly pure kensai heavy fighter. The defenses were a bit weak and the hit points a bit low by comparison. If you live through the onslaught self healing is alot easier on a arti melee. But I feel I would be loosing too much offense to go further into RMM. So I didn't.

I made a tank version of melee arti going blade forged pali 6 arti 12 wiz 2 This one I went T-5 RMM and 35 points T4 SD and 24 points and enough wizard for Eldritch Knight mage armor and shield. Enough Bladeforged for reconstruct sla and had 2 quickened reconstruct sla's, enough BE for faster rune arm recharge and enough Harper for kta. Despite all the self repair and repair amp I slotted it was under whelming as a self healer in mid reapers So to make a RMM reaper tank the party needs to have other classes or characters capable of repair spells. For the right party this would be a excellent tank. For solo questing or short manning low reapers it is a good tank with more offence and cc available than most current non warlock tank concepts. The hit points and repair were fantastic. The AC was incredible for a single weapon fighting character and could be improved on by abandoning all offence and going with a shield. The mitigation was ok also could be improved by droping the rune arm. With the force shields being the shining star of the defenses of the tree they wont last in long reaper fights. For the build to really tank it would need to use shields not a rune arm and there fore abandon the nice battle fist attacks and rune arm dps. The active attacks in the tree are much more effective and worth taking than say Stalwart/Sacred Defender active attacks.

Out side of a full party of robots though a RMM tank falls apart for me in mid and upper reapers. It plays best I think as a defense heavy solo build or tanky dps hybrid. With not enough of either to be a tank or dps for most parties in tough content. Bleh. I dont feel like the RMM tree needs to be the best tank tree in the game but it may be the best in a party full of forged or other arti's who can be healed by repair spells. I know we dont want to design for reaper but having some form of temp hit points available would be a great tanking touch. Maybe in the repair aura something like a warlock aura temp hit points aura int based if con based feels to powerful? A double temp hit point aura ticking from a arti warlock would be interesting and party friendly for the fleshies. There need to be feats or enhancements in the tree that allow a rune arm to count as a shield, say buckler/small / large for purposes of ac and the prr double strike portions of shield mastery feats and shield bonus ac enhancements and unyielding sentinel bonuses.. Not the shield bash if that requires re doing rune arms completely. But it would be nice if they did shield bash and used the battle fist animations. Tank trees need to use shield mastery feats. Make the rune arm function as a small shield through enhancements or arti feats and this tree would be much more attractive for tanking. If that proves unfeasible maybe feats or enhancements that adds shield a.c. and some prr mrr for rune arms? preferably feats that mimic shield mastery or replace the offensive portions with 1-2-3 spell lore enhancement instead of double strike, melee power and shield bash.. Just straight replace the saving throw constructs with that. Call it battle fist.

[Ladislaio]

Artificer: Renegade Mastermaker Tree
Renegade Mastermaker is the third tree for Artificers. It focuses on improving your Healing, personal Defense, some Melee, and building things to buff you and your allies.
Easily Fixed: +10 Healing Amp, +20 Repair Amp
Mighty Slam: Single Target Melee Attack: +1/2/3[w]. You may stun the target for 6 seconds. Stunned creatures are considered helpless. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC: 10 + Half Artificer Level + INT modifier + Sunder Modifiers). Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use.
Battlefist: You empower your Rune Arm to devastate a target with a powerful strike. Single Target Melee Attack: +3[w], if the target is under the effect of Mighty Slam's Stun, it takes 1d3 Sonic Damage per Artificer level, 1d3 Force Damage per Artificer level, and is knocked down for 10 seconds with no save. This damage scales with 100% Melee Power. Requires an equipped Rune Arm to use. (This is also gettng a cool new animation.)

Yay! more healing amp / repair amp! Thank you for adding Easily Fixed, makes this tree much better

I will likely not use Mighty Slam or Battlefist, but I am very glad that they got added to the tree, and I am even more glad that 1/2 arti level got added to the DC on Mighty Slam so it is more likely to be useful. I think that if you build for it you can hit the DC's you need to with that ability.


Overall I am pretty happy with this tree for tanking. I did some testing on lammy land and I think that it opens up some variations on tanking builds, at least one of which I'm going to be moving my ubertank into.

Some screenshots of tank builds; These are all in the same gear, ed, and Reaper enhancements. They are all missing Quality con 4. Gear includes a 4pc Shroud HP set, Knight of Shadows Tank set, Bracers of the Fallen Hero, Planar Compass, The new Wisdom/Hamp helm, Crafted 15 cha / 15 dex / 18 insightful MRR ring, and a +2 store pot. All buffs are self-cast (not scrolled). The new shield and the new scimitar were used to get that tiny extra tanking set bonus.
Scion of Elemental Plane of Fire (10 PRR/MRR, fire damage on hit) was the selected level 30 feat for each build also; typical tank builds on the forums seem to favor Scion of Celesta (150 hp, +4 to will saves), but scion of fire works out to about the same effective HP and actually provides some threat (not much tho).

14 Fighter / 5 Paladin / 1 Wizard
The "standard" tank build. T5 Paladin. 363 from heal from spirit binder. 16% dodge.


13 Artificer / 6 Paladin / 1 Wizard
Tank focused arti split. T5 RMM. Does not have deadly weapons; 264 heal from spirit binder. 18% dodge.


13 Artificer / 6 Paladin / 1 Wizard
Same as above, but t5 in SaD.


15 Artificer / 4 Paladin / 1 Wizard
Dwarf, not Aasimar; Tank split but with deadly weapons. t5 RMM; 21% dodge (really hard to fill). 230 heal from spirit binder (So about 60% as good effective hamp as "standard" Aasimar tank build)


14 Cleric (animal) / 5 Paladin / 1 Wizard
So maybe I was getting tired of doing these, but here is a cleric tank to peak at. t5 SaD


My thoughts? This is a fine tanking tree. I'd love something that reduces the positive healing penality for being WF / Construct essence in the tree too, but beyond that I think it is fairly shiny and eagerly away tr'n my tank into something with it

[Nubom70]

Are they ever going to make that thing smaller, or make it a moveable bar so we can put it someplace else? The most annoying thing about playing an arti, is having to constantly stare at a 2-inch wide glowing batch of runes in the middle of the screen. It blocks view, and if you elect not to use it, you automatically lose at least 24 universal power. It's pretty rediculous they haven't fixed that after this many years... Oh, but they removed the sound and didn't put in a toggle? Really.

Also, Conjure Component: 10 Spell Points:You conjure a large number of components.... etc etc. In DnD, admixtures never required a potion, to summon a potion. They were made on the fly. Same reason you don't need a 50-LB crate of turret parts to summon a turret. Yet, they found it needed to add THIS, to fix something that shouldn't even have happened. At a bare minimum, you should be able to Eschew it, not do a halfass fix that shouldn't exist.

[GramercyRiff]

Isn't the Battlefist animation just the shield attack that armored skeletons do?

Also I really cannot stand that Battlefist and Mighty Slam can't seemingly be used on reds.

Still hoping this and Druid are fun, but nothing for either seems like it will be for me.

[Nubom70]

Yeah, they never fixed the admixture screwup, and it's been how many years now?