U38 Preview 2: Druid

[Silverleafeon]

It's worse than it seems. Near as I can tell damage to weapons is worse in wolf form than in humanoid form.

Hmm...traditionally handwraps take far less damage than normal weapons, so weapons morphed into paws should thematically take less damage than normal?

[edrein]

I've always wondered about Winter Season's negative energy bit. It's always been like that on live, was the originally a plan for druidic sects? As Children of Winter is an Eberron sect that focuses on negative energy/arcane and the cycle of death portion of nature. Would have love to have seen that go through for some neat druid play ability.

[Silverleafeon]

So my suggestion here is to extend Shillelagh to apply to any non-metal weapon and to Flameblade. Mostly because any non-metal weapon in DDO is a druidic oath appropriate material: Bone, crystal, stone, etc. Secondly, since there has been no talk on the dev end of updating Flameblade to scale, this would atleast help give it more use and life once you hit epics and the scaling stops. Although I'd suggest that flameblades get the full +1W as if they were two handed weapons and +2W with the core 6. This might make them a bit 'strong' in heroics, but mostly would help them in epics where they need it the most.

+1 for creativity and ideas.

/signed for considering allowing Shillelagh apply to non metal materials including flame blade

after all, except for Qstaffs, its the same buff as Deadly Weapons
half as much without the core 6 from Season's Herald

[Silverleafeon]

As I suggested Force and Light (particularly ALIGNMENT spells) should be separate of season. As it affects quite a few spells, three of which are actually winter spells. With them being separate of seasons and given crit bonuses as a general deal. That means elementals don't have to worry about which form to min-max salt ray's DC/caster level and frankly Word of Balance also gets freed up as well.

Another reason to eliminate the opposing element caster level penalty, there is more than enough Seasonal distinctions already.

[Silverleafeon]

In a day and age when Character Levels > Caster Levels, perhaps the Devs might reconsider the Druid and Sorcerer caster level penalties?

Consider that Sorcerers might end up with elemental Wild Shape type forms as a Capstone?


A compromise of


Fire Elemental Form ~ +1 Caster Level Fire, +0 Caster Level Cold
Water Elemental Form ~ +1 Caster Level Cold, +0 Caster Level Fire

seems much preferable to the current state of +3/-3

and might be less unbalancing if the Sorcerer Savant Capstone includes the ability to take a wild shape type elemental form (even if it is not considered a wild shape per say).


Of course, +2/+0 is nicer than +1/+0 but I will take whatever I can get to get rid of that -3

[edrein]

In a day and age when Character Levels > Caster Levels, perhaps the Devs might reconsider the Druid and Sorcerer caster level penalties?

Consider that Sorcerers might end up with elemental Wild Shape type forms as a Capstone?


A compromise of


Fire Elemental Form ~ +1 Caster Level Fire, +0 Caster Level Cold
Water Elemental Form ~ +1 Caster Level Cold, +0 Caster Level Fire

seems much preferable to the current state of +3/-3

and might be less unbalancing if the Sorcerer Savant Capstone includes the ability to take a wild shape type elemental form (even if it is not considered a wild shape per say).


Of course, +2/+0 is nicer than +1/+0 but I will take whatever I can get to get rid of that -3

Sadly a lot of people build around the +3 currently, as stated in this thread several shiradi builds are going to use that feature.

Thematically I think druids should be +3 and -1, as they are far more skilled with natural elemental magic than a Savant sorcerer. However, this wouldn't be such a big penalty if they moved Force and Light/Alignment spells out of Fire form and make it form agnostic.

I get the entire reason for throwing Force into Fire was to make Fire more attractive, but that's not really helpful in the long haul.

The biggest issue with the current set up of both elemental forms and seasons for druids is the fact they are set to two dynamic sets, where as sorcs have the four. Druids have opposed elements put into single form/seasons and that causes the issues of how to add Air and Earth forms.

Take for instance; how do you balance Storm of Vengeance when Air form will have negative caster levels to acid, or vice versa. Even worst for the Earth elemental as the CL portion is dictated by the Electric Base of the spell.

I think that the concept of making Druids negate these penalties is good. However there becomes the issue of how much bonus can they receive then. A level 20 sorc's elemental form makes sense for the +3 caster levels, after all that's a huge pure investment. Where as a druid only needs to reach level 11 for their first elemental form. And wow, I just did my research. Sorcs get +1 and druids get +3... Talk about a backwards power structure.

With that in mind, I think druids should keep the +3 caster level but tie it into the cores of SH. The same for reducing the penalty against the opposing element. Put them in the cores. And for the love of god, someone give the poor Savant Sorcs a +3 boost after all they take the -3 opposite penalty as well. Put these caster level boosts at core 12, 18, and 20. Start with +1, and boost it to a total of +4 caster level for that elemental form. At core 18 and 20, reduce the penalty by 1, for a new total of -1 to the opposite element.

Or just take a bandaid route similar to Savants and add +1 caster level to the appropriate element per core and -1 every other core. I really feel like druids need a full fledged pass at this point and delaying them a patch or two is imperative for getting things right rather than having to go back and recheck things like the current monk snafu. Shame Ninja Spy's still aren't getting any love...

[Silverleafeon]

Sadly a lot of people build around the +3 currently, as stated in this thread several shiradi builds are going to use that feature.

Hmm...will have to go back and reread the thread then.

Shirdai taking advantage of Force being inside a season would result in:

+1 caster levels to spells in your active season
+1 Max Caster Level for spells appropriate to your season




And in tier five outside of seasons is

Increase your Caster Level and Max Caster Level by +1
Capstone of +1 CL / +1 MCL evocation/conjuration (which I assume a Multi-class Shirdai would not have)

The +3 caster levels affects only cold or fire spells, not force spells.
So any attempt to use thus to increase Magic Missles will not work.

It could affect Produce Flame or Scorching Ray.

Produce Flamse is already affected by Master of the Wilds which adds +10 Max Caster levels.
So, Produce Flame's max caster level of 15 increases to 25.

In order to gain full 25 caster levels, one would need:

Master of the Wild -- increase of +10 max caster level

Primal Epic Destiny -- increase of +5 caster levels (unless the Devs actually go back and reread the history of MotU Expansion notes if any exist and increase Epic Destiny levels towards Epic Levels)

Fire Form -- increase of +3 fire caster levels

Sorcerer Fire Savant Tree splash -- +1 at every core you take (I have no idea where you getting that Druid caster levels are larger than Sorcerer?)

Possible Epic Weapon such as Spiral, the Voice of the Elements with its Elemental Spiral random bonus.




So, to gain a Produce Flames Caster level of 25

+3 Fire Form
+5 Shirdai/Primal ED
+1 season
+3 from a splash of 6 levels of Sorcerer
+3 from a splash of 4 levels of Favored Soul
-----total----
+15 Fire Caster Levels requiring Druid level 10+ in order to max out

Problem is not getting the immunity breaker from the level 9 druid spells.


In order to max out Scorching Ray, one needs 11 arcane caster levels.
+3 Fire Form
+3 from a splash of 6 levels of Sorcerer
+1 season
+6 Sorcerer Class
+3 from a splash of 4 levels of Favored Soul
----total----
+19 Scorching Ray CL


In order to max out Magic Missle, one needs 9 arcane caster levels
+3 from a splash of 6 levels of Sorcerer
+1 season
+6 Sorcerer Class
+3 from a splash of 4 levels of Favored Soul
----total---
+13 Magic Missle CL



You are giving up the level four arcane spell Force Missiles, however, can gain Chain Missles.


If Chain Missles is not bugged actually counting caster levels then you need 19 arcane caster levels to have all 10 missles.
+3 from a splash of 6 levels of Sorcerer
+1 season
+6 Sorcerer Class
+3 from a splash of 4 levels of Favored Soul
----total---
+13 Chain Missle CL



I believe the Shirdai build posted was going for Druid 13, which is high enough to take advantage caster levels.




Of course the whole discussion goes haywire, if the Devs actually consider raising Epic Destiny Levels to 10, thereby providing up to 10 Primal Caster Levels gated by Epic Levels.

[Haphazarduk]

Also if offered this compromise:



Water Elemental
You gain +2 bonus to caster level and max caster level to water and cold spells.
Your fire spells get a -1 penalty to caster level and max caster level.
You gain a +10 racial bonus to cold resistance, and -10 electric resistance.
You have +20 swim skill
Form specific spells:Elemental Toughness, Freezing Spray, Ice Flowers, Mantle of the Icy Soul


Fire Elemental
You can breath indefinitely underwater
You gain +2 bonus to caster level and max caster level to fire spells.
Your water spells get a -1 penalty to caster level and max caster level.
You gain a +10 racial bonus to fire resistance, and have -10 cold resistance.
Form specific spells: Body of the Sun, Elemental Toughness, Fires of Purity, Anger of the Noonday Sun



I would definately take that and consider it an upgrade.

No, no. Keep the +3 CL in form. The -3 is fine. Its ok to have to make compromises to get decent benefits and it gives a reason to switch between forms which is good.

I'd love to see new forms for air/earth. I think theres more they could do with forms in general though so would rather wait till they can do it properly;

Bonus Caster Level in Form (+3!)
Penalty Caster Level in opposite form
Bonus absorption in form
Penalty absorption in opposite form
Related skill bonus (see Sorcerer)
+2d6 form damage to melee
Form spells (probably the main reason they haven't done air/earth forms yet)

Hap

[Silverleafeon]

No, no. Keep the +3 CL in form. The -3 is fine. Its ok to have to make compromises to get decent benefits and it gives a reason to switch between forms which is good.

Ok, I see there are definately fans of the +3 ...let the Devs take note.

I'd love to see new forms for air/earth. I think theres more they could do with forms in general though so would rather wait till they can do it properly;

I believe Torc mentioned a very possible second druid pass later on, bring "...more forms..." and stuff.
So, you likely.

~~~

If the Devs actually consider (or are likely considering already) expanding Epic Destinies to level 10 while being level gated by epic levels, then any complaints I have about the -3 caster level penalty are null and void.

EI: +5 -3 = +2 so who cares then

[Silverleafeon]

Not sure if the Devs are still debating how much difference there needs to be between Summer & Winter, if so please recall this belt swap (hot bar equipped for true druid casters:





OR





the same slot, so you cannot have both at the same time...

[Haphazarduk]

I'd also like to see the projectile speed of Fire Seeds increased a bit (to be in line with the improved Produce Flame speed?). I'm not sure how many people use this spell any more but I love it, especially the dual nature of it, and a faster to-target speed would make up somewhat for the relatively high cost and high level spell slot.

One of the the best things abut this pass by the way is the change to some spells. Spells have long been overlooked in DDO and many feel redundant these days. Giving them a pass feels like an efficient way of improving gameplay, QOL *and* flavour all in one go. Big fan of this.

Hap

[Silverleafeon]

I'd also like to see the projectile speed of Future Seeds increased a bit (to be in line with the improved Produce Flame speed?). I'm not sure how many people use this spell any more but I love it, especially the dual nature of it, and a faster to-target speed would make up somewhat for the relatively high cost and high level spell slot.

One of the the best things abut this pass by the way is the change to some spells. Spells have long been overlooked in DDO and many feel redundant these days. Giving them a pass feels like an efficient way of improving gameplay, QOL *and* flavour all in one go. Big fan of this.

Hap

Fan of Fire Seeds here.

Yes, working over the spells is great for Druid casters.

[Hjarki]

The thing which annoys me about elemental forms is not the caster level penalties per se, but that at any given time about half your druid SLAs are taking that penalty. It seems to me that Season's Herald should've been split into two trees - call `em Summer Herald and Winter Herald - with the relevant bonuses, SLAs, etc. put into each tree for each season, much as with sorcerer Savants. Those who want to specialize in only one season can do so (e.g., I'd like to do a hypothetical Winter Herald / Nature's Warrior hybrid wolf build); while those who want to alternate between seasons for more spell variety can invest in both Heralds.

It's probably easier/more thematically appropriate, to simply split the abilities. So if you were a Summer Herald, you'd be able to use Produce Flame. If you were a Winter Herald, the same ability would instead Produce Frost - an identically crappy elemental attack, just with cold damage. As a Winter Herald, you'd Call Lightning. As a Summer Herald, you'd Call Thunder. And so forth.

[edrein]

It's probably easier/more thematically appropriate, to simply split the abilities. So if you were a Summer Herald, you'd be able to use Produce Flame. If you were a Winter Herald, the same ability would instead Produce Frost - an identically crappy elemental attack, just with cold damage. As a Winter Herald, you'd Call Lightning. As a Summer Herald, you'd Call Thunder. And so forth.

That'd actually be a nice change/idea. Although I don't think the devs like to do the whole... Duality/Alternatives. Seeing as Divine Disciple got left alone during the small divine pass, yet everyone knows Dark Disciple is awful save the necro DC boost.

[Pilgrim1]

Thank you for the improvments to spells, but dont forget other bugged spells:

— fire seeds when quickened only casts 2 seeds (as oposed to 3 unquickend). This is simmilar to the issue with metiorswarm from wiz/sorcer spell list.

— Ice flowers has a 8 second duration yet does nothing for that duration.

— Harrowing pack knockdown does not work on players, pets, hierlings, or summons.

— Pack aptatude only provides +4 to a stat instead of the advertized 6.

— Howl of terror does not cause helpless status dispite advertizing “paralizing effect”. At one point the draconic ability which increased dc of fear based spells did not apply to this spell dispite the spell saying that they are “Paralized with fear”. I am unsure if this is still accurate.

[Haphazarduk]

So, to gain a Produce Flames Caster level of 25

+3 Fire Form
+5 Shirdai/Primal ED
+1 season
+3 from a splash of 6 levels of Sorcerer
+3 from a splash of 4 levels of Favored Soul
-----total----
+15 Fire Caster Levels requiring Druid level 10+ in order to max out

Problem is not getting the immunity breaker from the level 9 druid spells.

I didn't play on the Lam feedback event but I *think* the tier5 feature Master of Elements now has no min level to give Anger of the Noon-day Sun which now gives removal of fire res and immunity. This is a great change IMO and opens up more options for low level elemental spells and multiclassing yet again.

Hap

[Tilomere]

Mmm no W&S mastery for veteran players to maker reaper builds and no spell pen for veteran players to make DC builds.

GG no re. SH is DoA

[Silverleafeon]

I didn't play on the Lam feedback event but I *think* the tier5 feature Master of Elements now has no min level to give Anger of the Noon-day Sun which now gives removal of fire res and immunity. This is a great change IMO and opens up more options for low level elemental spells and multiclassing yet again.

Hap

Wow, totally missed that as I was thinking one needed the spell memorized to get said effect.

Rather a nice change really.
Hopefully tucked away into Tier Five Savant will be a similar effect?

[Vooduspyce]

SEASONS HERALD

Cores

Hierophant: You are wise and skilled in the art of wielding divine magic to summon aid and change the world around you. +2 Wisdom & Constitution. Your Conjuration and Evocation spells gain +1 DC, +1 caster level, and +1 max caster level in both seasons.

This still needs work. Capstones should be a big incentive to acquire and not something that we can easily shrug off to sacrifice for 2 levels of multiclass. What we essentially have now is the broken "auto crit" was never fixed and instead removed and replaced with +2 con. This is a good place for another SLA. I have suggested adding a spell version of the Bottled Tornado and the capstone is the perfect place for it to create a fun and enticing capstone with some flair. The Bottled Tornado effect is similar enough to a pen and paper 7th level druid spell called Whirlwind, so it fits perfectly with lore and the coding is already done in DDO but sadly sits unused because most of the Bottled Tornados are long gone, as they were from the 8th anniversary event.

Compare the current Hierophant to the Enlightened Spirit Capstone:

Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.

Ultimate Enlightenment is a great capstone and makes us have to seriously consider it before deciding to multiclass. Hierophant is so sad compared to Ultimate Enlightenment. Please work on Hierophant. Don't worry, druid casters will never be overpowered.

[edrein]

This still needs work. Capstones should be a big incentive to acquire and not something that we can easily shrug off to sacrifice for 2 levels of multiclass. What we essentially have now is the broken "auto crit" was never fixed and instead removed and replaced with +2 con. This is a good place for another SLA. I have suggested adding a spell version of the Bottled Tornado and the capstone is the perfect place for it to create a fun and enticing capstone with some flair. The Bottled Tornado effect is similar enough to a pen and paper 7th level druid spell called Whirlwind, so it fits perfectly with lore and the coding is already done in DDO but sadly sits unused because most of the Bottled Tornados are long gone, as they were from the 8th anniversary event.

Compare the current Hierophant to the Enlightened Spirit Capstone:

Ultimate Enlightenment: +2 CON, +2 CHA. While your Celestial Spirit is enabled, you gain +20% Competence Bonus to Maximum HP, full Base Attack Bonus, +10 Melee Power, +10 Ranged Power, +10 Universal Spell Power, and +20 Light Spell Power.

Ultimate Enlightenment is a great capstone and makes us have to seriously consider it before deciding to multiclass. Hierophant is so sad compared to Ultimate Enlightenment. Please work on Hierophant. Don't worry, druid casters will never be overpowered.

Great idea and a valid point. Looking at the changes I'd consider 18 druid/2 FvS to be the highest lead for caster builds at the moment. With careful use of Produce Flame, Salt Ray, Word of Balance, and Sunburst you'll be able to stretch your SP quite far if you're not dropping Firewalls, Icestorms, or Earthquakes to supplement your other SLAs during fights.

The tornado capstone would definitely be a great thematic addition, a good reuse of a dropped 'spell effect', and a nice incentive to go pure over multiclassing. Druid is definitely the only caster on live I can't find a good argument for staying pure for the capstone and with the proposed change as is, I really don't see a reason to stay pure.

The issue I see is no caster capstone is going to be as remotely attractive as warlock capstones, because too many forumites will grumble and yell nerf before it even manages to touch Lamannia for play testing. It's a shame.