Rough DPS calculations for Melee Wolves

[elvesunited]

So I've been playing with DPS excel spreadsheets for wolves based off the current proposed rules. Limiting myself to the following parameters:
Essence of Nature is a must have ability and crit range needs to at least 16-20.

All builds are str builds unless specified other.
I did calculations at level 20 and at level 30. ( and averaged them )
Defense or tactics are not really considered.

Half-orc Kensei came out the highest so I rated all of them based off a percentage of that.

-100% --- HALF-ORC KENSEI FALCHION -- 12 Fight -> 35 Kensei 18 H-orc 13 stalwart 14 N warrior
- 90.0% - ELVEN DEX KENSEI FALCHION - 10 Fight 2 Monk -> 35 Kensei 19 Elf 6 Stalwart 16 N War 3 Harp 1 Hen
- 85% --- SILVANUS PDK MAUL KENSEI -- 6 cler 6 fight -> 34 kensei 18 stalwart 26 N War
- 82.5% - GNOME INT HARPER FALCHION - pure -> 31 Harper 41 N warrior 7 N Protect 1 Gnome
- 77.5% - HALF-ORC FALCHION --------- pure -> 41 N warrior 20 half-orc 11 N Protect 8 harper
- 72.5% - DRAGONBORN VISTANI FIGHT -- 4 Fight -> 41 Vistani 24 N Warrior 15 Stalwart
- 70% --- ELVEN DEX FALCHION -------- pure -> 41 N warrior 19 Elf 6 N Protector 14 Harper
- 67.5% - GNOME INT HARPER SCIMITAR - pure -> 31 Harper 41 N warrior 7 N Protect 1 Gnome
- 62.5% - DRAGONBORN VISTANI DRUID -- pure -> 41 N warrior 28 Vistani 11 Nature Protector
- 60% --- ELVEN DEX RAPIER ---------- pure -> 41 N warrior 19 Elf 6 N Protector 14 Harper
- 60% --- HALF-ORC SCIMITAR --------- pure -> 41 N warrior 20 half-orc 11 N Protect 8 harper


- Notes -

Dance of Flowers if used by a two-handed kensei build. ( meet center requirements, not need be monk ) knocks DPS up roughly 12.5%. Flip side being less defense as you are wearing no armor. ( and some adjustment to AP )

Elven builds suffer from To hit and innate attack DC issues due to having DEX as their primary attribute. Weapon finesse can help "to hit" with rapiers.

Vistani builds were calculated assuming that Blessed Blades ( Tier 5 ) will not work. ( It does currently ) If it continues to work then it will bump up Vistani that can use it by about 7.5%. The same goes with single dagger ( Tier 4 ) which currently doesn't work unless nothing is equipped in other hand. If it is working than add another 7.5%.

I did not include dethek shield in my calculations. But did consider cloak of the fallen. If the wolf has dethek shield. If using Dethek then add about 2.5% for a dagger base. 5% for a scimitar base. 7.5% for some base extended named weapon like the Agony dagger. ( Assuming Dethek provides +2W )

Racial AP if applied could improve DPS on the Half-orc and Elven builds and to a much lesser extent to the others.

[edrein]

Vistani builds were calculated assuming that Blessed Blades ( Tier 5 ) will not work. ( It does currently ) If it continues to work then it will bump up Vistani that can use it by about 7.5%. The same goes with single dagger ( Tier 4 ) which currently doesn't work unless nothing is equipped in other hand. If it is working than add another 7.5%.

I did not include dethek shield in my calculations. But did consider cloak of the fallen. If the wolf has dethek shield. If using Dethek then add about 2.5% for a dagger base. 5% for a scimitar base. 7.5% for some base extended named weapon like the Agony dagger. ( Assuming Dethek provides +2W )

Nice work all together, this only needs a comparison to any of the live wolf builds. Both from a pure (lol) and a multiclassed/'exploiter' build perspective.

I'm assuming Blessed Blades is WAI and I'm hoping they allow/fix Rapid Attack to work with this as well, as currently it has no actual forced animation on live. So I'm not sure why it doesn't work but Blessed Blades does.

For Dethek you have to also consider the fact the Single Dagger is currently in the wind on what it's supposed to work with. If they fix it to work with any non-weapon offhand, then the DPS increase for Dethek and a dagger is going to be far higher than 2.5%. Additionally, you forgot that if you go centered and run daggers you also gain a higher DPS advantage when twisting A Dance of Flowers as you gain +2.5W, depending on your monk splash you could bump that higher with improved martial arts to +3W and you don't require kensai to be centered with daggers.

[elvesunited]

Nice work all together, this only needs a comparison to any of the live wolf builds. Both from a pure (lol) and a multiclassed/'exploiter' build perspective.

I'm assuming Blessed Blades is WAI and I'm hoping they allow/fix Rapid Attack to work with this as well, as currently it has no actual forced animation on live. So I'm not sure why it doesn't work but Blessed Blades does.

For Dethek you have to also consider the fact the Single Dagger is currently in the wind on what it's supposed to work with. If they fix it to work with any non-weapon offhand, then the DPS increase for Dethek and a dagger is going to be far higher than 2.5%. Additionally, you forgot that if you go centered and run daggers you also gain a higher DPS advantage when twisting A Dance of Flowers as you gain +2.5W, depending on your monk splash you could bump that higher with improved martial arts to +3W and you don't require kensai to be centered with daggers.

Assuming its enhancements work with the current wolf. A pure Half-orc build currently on live comes to about 42.5% with defensive abilities that would be much, much worse. My spreadsheet isn't really set up for exploiter builds, but with making a few guesses a fighter/ranger hybrid with single weapon fighting and two weapon fighting could knock that up to 80% ( plus a 12.5% bump from dancing with flowers if used ) So yeah, I think it is possible to make a DPS wolf build using the new system that is roughly on par with the old exploiter builds.

The biggest problem with wolf today is that you basically have to research the forums to figure out what works with it and what doesn't to make a decent wolf build. ( I know I did ) As such I think the devs have made blanket decision that weapon required clickies are not going to work. So I have low hopes for Blessed Blades with animal form working by the time it gets to live. Single dagger I think is currently working as intended. ( with exception that maybe it should work with orbs )

but From my notes above:

Blessed Dagger works: +7.5%
Single Dagger works: +7.5%
dethek shield:+2.5% ( +7.5% with a high base range dagger )

That's +17.5% ( 22.5% ) added to the 72.5% of the 41 AP Vistani build. 90% or 95%
Which is comparable to the half-orc Kensei build.

The +1 W for the Vistani dagger builds is already cooked into the calculations. currently all my Vistani builds I've done estimates for are heavy armor/shield builds. But shedding the armor and shield would probably get you about 7.5% to 12.5% depending on the dagger from Dancing with FLowers.

I haven't done any monk builds estimates yet though I think you are thinking of a 12 monk 8 druid with heavy vistani investment.
41 AP vistani 6 AP Nature Protector 24 AP Nature Warrior 6 AP Henshin 2 AP Ninja
and plugging the numbers into my spreadsheet I get roughly 72.5% tie with heavy armor version.
( +6 str +2 damage stalwart offset by +6 melee power +1 damage from monk )
( significant loss from cloak of the fallen, and magic fang spell )
( offset again by stance and monk strike abilties )
then you can then get the additional 7.5% to 12.5% from Dancing with flowers depending on dagger.
And an additional 2.5% probably from Improved martial arts.

[unbongwah]

The biggest problem with wolf today is that you basically have to research the forums to figure out what works with it and what doesn't to make a decent wolf build. ( I know I did ) As such I think the devs have made blanket decision that weapon required clickies are not going to work.

I already know on live that weapon-specific attacks like Quick Strike and style-specific attacks like Dance of Death do NOT work in wolf form even if you otherwise meet the ability requirements (i.e., staff or dual-weapons equipped). So going forward I would presume that to be the norm for wolf builds as well.

OTOH, generic melee attacks like Exposing Strike work in animal form on live, so I'll be interested to see if that's still the case when U38 rolls around.

[edrein]

The biggest problem with wolf today is that you basically have to research the forums to figure out what works with it and what doesn't to make a decent wolf build. ( I know I did ) As such I think the devs have made blanket decision that weapon required clickies are not going to work. So I have low hopes for Blessed Blades with animal form working by the time it gets to live. Single dagger I think is currently working as intended. ( with exception that maybe it should work with orbs )


I haven't done any monk builds estimates yet though I think you are thinking of a 12 monk 8 druid with heavy vistani investment.
41 AP vistani 6 AP Nature Protector 24 AP Nature Warrior 6 AP Henshin 2 AP Ninja

Well, the new version of the animal feats allows you to use the Weapon attacks from Legendary Dreadnaught. If you're putting destinies into your equations that's a big DPS boost as you could gain an additional source of helpless via Anvil of Thunder. As well as sonic damage on hit/crit for the attack, not a huge percentage boost but it helps.

As far as a monk build goes. For a monk build you should be taking Sting of the Ninja due to the attack speed of wolves. That's atleast 12AP (13 if you want Shadow Veil for survivability). That's a huge boon to your single target/boss beat downs where that poison damage is actually going to make a difference. You can also run the 3pc Snake sentient set to make even better use of the 10% poison vulnerability you apply. (Note the sentient damage works on most poison-immune mobs, save skeletons. Any fleshy undead takes damage.)

I'm not convinced that any build will run 41AP in Vistani. I just don't really see the +2 stats and 20MP winning out AP cost wise over other choices you could use. In the same vein I don't see folks running T5 Vistani, especially for Blessed Blades.

[elvesunited]

As far as a monk build goes. For a monk build you should be taking Sting of the Ninja due to the attack speed of wolves. That's atleast 12AP (13 if you want Shadow Veil for survivability). That's a huge boon to your single target/boss beat downs where that poison damage is actually going to make a difference. You can also run the 3pc Snake sentient set to make even better use of the 10% poison vulnerability you apply. (Note the sentient damage works on most poison-immune mobs, save skeletons. Any fleshy undead takes damage.)

I'm not convinced that any build will run 41AP in Vistani. I just don't really see the +2 stats and 20MP winning out AP cost wise over other choices you could use. In the same vein I don't see folks running T5 Vistani, especially for Blessed Blades.

I've never done a poison ninja. Mostly because I felt that way too many enemies are immune to poison damage.

41 AP Vistani scored the highest DPS for a shield carrying druid and I've always known players to flock to highest DPS. It's also got some of the better defenses. If Blessed blades continues to work it passes some two-handed builds. So for those who scoured Thunder Peak for a Dethek and aren't ready to put it in storage I can't think of a better option.

[edrein]

I've never done a poison ninja. Mostly because I felt that way too many enemies are immune to poison damage.

41 AP Vistani scored the highest DPS for a shield carrying druid and I've always known players to flock to highest DPS. It's also got some of the better defenses. If Blessed blades continues to work it passes some two-handed builds. So for those who scoured Thunder Peak for a Dethek and aren't ready to put it in storage I can't think of a better option.

Here's hoping that One Dagger will work with all offhands. I find that 20MP to be the biggest draw for the one handed being competitive argument.

[Tilomere]

Single dagger I think is currently working as intended.

Well if that's the case, then two dagger is definitely intended, based on wording. I'm going to go with 5 ranger, 2 monk, 13 druid, using DoD in human form, then shapeshifting into bear for glancing blows as well, with 40% offhand attacks as well from two dagger, tempest, and deft strikes.

Everything in front of the bear will melt.

[Tilomere]

-100% --- HALF-ORC KENSEI FALCHION -- 12 Fight -> 35 Kensei 18 H-orc 13 stalwart 14 N warrior
- 90.0% - ELVEN DEX KENSEI FALCHION - 10 Fight 2 Monk -> 35 Kensei 19 Elf 6 Stalwart 16 N War 3 Harp 1 Hen
- 85% --- SILVANUS PDK MAUL KENSEI -- 6 cler 6 fight -> 34 kensei 18 stalwart 26 N War
- 82.5% - GNOME INT HARPER FALCHION - pure -> 31 Harper 41 N warrior 7 N Protect 1 Gnome
- 77.5% - HALF-ORC FALCHION --------- pure -> 41 N warrior 20 half-orc 11 N Protect 8 harper
- 72.5% - DRAGONBORN VISTANI FIGHT -- 4 Fight -> 41 Vistani 24 N Warrior 15 Stalwart
- 70% --- ELVEN DEX FALCHION -------- pure -> 41 N warrior 19 Elf 6 N Protector 14 Harper
- 67.5% - GNOME INT HARPER SCIMITAR - pure -> 31 Harper 41 N warrior 7 N Protect 1 Gnome
- 62.5% - DRAGONBORN VISTANI DRUID -- pure -> 41 N warrior 28 Vistani 11 Nature Protector
- 60% --- ELVEN DEX RAPIER ---------- pure -> 41 N warrior 19 Elf 6 N Protector 14 Harper
- 60% --- HALF-ORC SCIMITAR --------- pure -> 41 N warrior 20 half-orc 11 N Protect 8 harper

Mmm, imma hafta load up lammania next pass and test out a build in game.

[edrein]

Well if that's the case, then two dagger is definitely intended, based on wording. I'm going to go with 5 ranger, 2 monk, 13 druid, using DoD in human form, then shapeshifting into bear for glancing blows as well, with 40% offhand attacks as well from two dagger, tempest, and deft strikes.

Everything in front of the bear will melt.

Highly inefficient imo. You're better off going 3 ranger, 6 monk, 11 druid. You lose a smidge on the heals but gain Shadow Veil (to make up for the MRR cap). DoD human isn't worth it. Assuming the 40% offhand is WAI then you're better off focusing on bear glancing blows. Run Fury and slot Sting of the Ninja. Everything will melt.

[elvesunited]

Highly inefficient imo. You're better off going 3 ranger, 6 monk, 11 druid. You lose a smidge on the heals but gain Shadow Veil (to make up for the MRR cap). DoD human isn't worth it. Assuming the 40% offhand is WAI then you're better off focusing on bear glancing blows. Run Fury and slot Sting of the Ninja. Everything will melt.

From the update description ....

No combat style specific bonuses will function while in animal forms aside from Natural Fighting, and any bonuses native to the form (no dual wielding, shield bashes or single weapon attack speed).

Noteworthy in part because shield mastery doesn't even deal with shield bashes but they're intent on making sure animal forms don't do them anyway. As such I'm currently operating under the theory that when they clean up the bugs. ( hopefully next lamania update ) we won't see any off hand attacks working.

[edrein]

From the update description ....



Noteworthy in part because shield mastery doesn't even deal with shield bashes but they're intent on making sure animal forms don't do them anyway. As such I'm currently operating under the theory that when they clean up the bugs. ( hopefully next lamania update ) we won't see any off hand attacks working.

Aye, I'm afraid I suspect it'll be fixed. And hopefully they'll fix/update Single Dagger so that we've all got a definitive answer once and for all on how it's supposed to work. As the wording is a bit too ambiguous when you consider it doesn't work with orbs but works with runearms.

[ValariusK]

Seems like the way to go would be to use the SoS in heroic, with its 30%/3x crit profile and 2 handed.

[unbongwah]

-100% --- HALF-ORC KENSEI FALCHION -- 12 Fight -> 35 Kensei 18 H-orc 13 stalwart 14 N warrior
- 77.5% - HALF-ORC FALCHION --------- pure -> 41 N warrior 20 half-orc 11 N Protect 8 harper

IIRC, I have an old HO alt with a HoW +20, a heroic SOS, and a leftover Raider's Box I could use for a Breach. Maybe I'll LR into one of these splits as soon as I decide whether I'd rather have higher DPS or full druid spells.