Scratch Pad for Build-fu

[Kantia]

I like the idea of a bear with improved Shillelagh using a 3[w] quarterstaff, picking up a couple of levels of rogue for dex to damage (if useful) and 15% extra attack speed with a staff. Not sure if it would work in practice, but I like the idea.

However,
(A) most of the newer staffs are not wood. Especially those with improved crit profiles
(B) Unsure whether the Rogue's attack speed will work in animal form.
(C) Imp Shillelagh doesn't currently do anything. (see https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6078126)
(D) It's unclear to me whether "doing an extra 1[w] damage" means the [w] goes from [1d6] to [3d6] which would make a +2[w] Great Cleave do 9d6, or whether it stays at [w]=[1d6] and the Shillelagh damage goes on the end of the calculation, meaning a +2[w] Great Cleave would be doing 3d6+2d6. Also unsure how it goes with the crit multipliers. If it actually increases the definition of the [w] then a [2d4] staff would be doing 18d4 per target on a great cleave, which would be nice. If it just tacks another 4d4 damage on the end of whatever [w] calculation is done, then it's only as impactful as a poison. If it increases the multiplier from, say 4[w] to 6[w] then it's somewhere in between I guess.
(E) It'd probably be more useful as a wolf, but I like the idea of a bear anyway. Flavoursome. And more cleaves.

It'd be very nice if we could get a higher level version of something like the Staff of Inner Sight, http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Staff_of_Inner_Sight which allows for WIS, CHA or INT to attack and damage, does [w]=[2d4] damage, and is wooden so it's affected by Shillelagh. But we don't have it, so this whole idea is probably not worth even fleshing out.

[Tilomere]

I like the idea of a bear with improved Shillelagh using a 3[w] quarterstaff, picking up a couple of levels of rogue for dex to damage (if useful) and 15% extra attack speed with a staff. Not sure if it would work in practice, but I like the idea.

It won't and never did, because the staff attack speed increase is a shorter standing still staff animation sequence.

[Kantia]

It won't and never did, because the staff attack speed increase is a shorter standing still staff animation sequence.

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the quick answer and clarification!

[edrein]

I like the idea of a bear with improved Shillelagh using a 3[w] quarterstaff, picking up a couple of levels of rogue for dex to damage (if useful) and 15% extra attack speed with a staff. Not sure if it would work in practice, but I like the idea.

(D) It's unclear to me whether "doing an extra 1[w] damage" means the [w] goes from [1d6] to [3d6] which would make a +2[w] Great Cleave do 9d6, or whether it stays at [w]=[1d6] and the Shillelagh damage goes on the end of the calculation, meaning a +2[w] Great Cleave would be doing 3d6+2d6. Also unsure how it goes with the crit multipliers. If it actually increases the definition of the [w] then a [2d4] staff would be doing 18d4 per target on a great cleave, which would be nice. If it just tacks another 4d4 damage on the end of whatever [w] calculation is done, then it's only as impactful as a poison. If it increases the multiplier from, say 4[w] to 6[w] then it's somewhere in between I guess.
(E) It'd probably be more useful as a wolf, but I like the idea of a bear anyway. Flavoursome. And more cleaves.

First of all. The improved Shillelagh is only going to bump that by +2W AKA: The equivalent of running with a Dethek Runestone, however unlike the Dethek Runestone you won't get the 15/adamantine. If you're adamant on running a Shillelagh build as a bear; I suggest running an Ironwood Khopesh or Legendary Cranium Cracker and hoping we might see more wooden one handers soon. Combine Shillelagh and Dethek Runestone and a wooden one hander wins with +3W opposed to the +2W a two hander will get.

D. It's not going to affect cleaves in the ways you postulate. It'll be like any other class using a cleave.
E. Bears currently don't have a cleave 'feat tax' like Paladins got. While a few of their spells were applying AoE damage on Lamannia last preview, I'd consider and hold all of those spells as Non-WAI until stated otherwise by the devs.

[Silverleafeon]

Hmm...at one-time Shillelagh did not care what material a staff was made of, guess they fixed it?

Could be wise to test out any new metal staff just in case.

CitW weapons tend to has strange classification as exceptions, so I would not use those as proof of the pudding.

[Tilomere]

[INDENT]No combat style specific bonuses will function while in animal forms aside from Natural Fighting, and any bonuses native to the form (no dual wielding, shield bashes or single weapon attack speed).

I don't think these are combat style bonuses, or they wouldn't function and stack with normal TWF feats which are combat style bonuses?

Edit: Ahh, nvm.

[unbongwah]

I like the idea of a bear with improved Shillelagh using a 3[w] quarterstaff, picking up a couple of levels of rogue for dex to damage (if useful) and 15% extra attack speed with a staff.

The DEX to-hit and dmg will carry over to animal forms; the +15% attack speed will not. Quick Strike doesn't work in animal forms either. Which really put the kibosh on my staff / wolf build ideas.

(A) most of the newer staffs are not wood. Especially those with improved crit profiles

Also true which makes Shillelagh less useful. I toyed with wolf ideas using Cranium Cracker, but it's not that great of a weapon anymore.

(D) It's unclear to me whether "doing an extra 1[w] damage" means the [w] goes from [1d6] to [3d6] which would make a +2[w] Great Cleave do 9d6, or whether it stays at [w]=[1d6] and the Shillelagh damage goes on the end of the calculation, meaning a +2[w] Great Cleave would be doing 3d6+2d6.

The latter: +[W] bonuses always apply outside the "[W]".

I don't think these are combat style bonuses, or they wouldn't function and stack with normal TWF feats which are combat style bonuses?

You're splitting hairs again. It's clear the intent is that offhand procs no longer work in animal forms. Doesn't matter what the source actually is. Trying to rules-lawyer about what "should" be allowed because certain things aren't labeled "Combat Style bonus" is beside the point.

Now, do I trust the devs to fix every animal-form bug they've identified without introducing new bugs? Umm. Magic 8-Ball says "outlook cloudy." But let's at least start from how things are supposed to work before we figure out all the exploits.

[Tilomere]

You're splitting hairs again. It's clear the intent is that offhand procs no longer work in animal forms. Doesn't matter what the source actually is. Trying to rules-lawyer about what "should" be allowed because certain things aren't labeled "Combat Style bonus" is beside the point.

You say I'm rules lawyering or splitting hairs, but actually finding out and keeping track of what does or does not work in animal or AoN form is a nightmare, not a search for exploits.

[edrein]

Also true which makes Shillelagh less useful. I toyed with wolf ideas using Cranium Cracker, but it's not that great of a weapon anymore.

Actually, it's not a -great- weapon under normal circumstances. However; in the hands of an Improved Shillelagh druid who's also got a Dethek Runestone sitting around? That +3W is pretty attractive. Just to give a quick break down of why it's arguably the best wooden weapon (until we see another one) is the following. We'll use the non-existant Night Mother Club for comparision (as the club is caster based not combat based).

Nightmother's (Each weapon type except club): One Handed: 5[W+2], +15 Enhancement Bonus, Human Bane 9d10, Evil 9d6, Chilling 9d6, Vampirism 4d2, Orange Augment Slot

• Can be increased to 7W due to Dethek Runestone.

Epic Cranium Cracker: 5[1d6] + 7. +7 Enhancement Bonus, Greater Elemental Bane, Vampirism, Hardened Spikes 4d6 piercing, Improved Destruction, Purple Augment Slot, and Mythic Bonus option.

• Can be boosted by Improved Shillelagh for +1W for a total of +6W
• Can be boosted by Dethek Runestone for +2W for a total of +7W
• Total Potential Boost to +8W.
• Possess both increased crit threat and multiplier. 19-20 and x3 respectively.
• Additionally can be boosted further by Pulverizer threat range if running Legendary Dreadnaught. 18-20 threat range before improved critical.
• Can now be used for Lightning Mace if running Legendary Dreadnaught. Lightning Mace: Active Ability: (Cooldown 12 seconds) Melee Attack On Hit 100 Electrical damage. On Critical Gain +15% enhancement bonus to melee doublestrike for 6 seconds. On Vorpal Target takes 10d100 Electrical damage.

Additional side note. Save a vistani dagger and dethek runestone combination, this is the highest potential one handed damage a druid can have. With the upside of not costing nearly as much AP.

[Tilomere]

Epic Cranium Cracker: 5[1d6] + 7


Additional side note. Save a vistani dagger and dethek runestone combination, this is the highest potential one handed damage a druid can have.

Why not 41 AP VKF core 6 T4 for 40 melee power, and 31 AP kensai T5 for 40 more melee power, 8 AP KTA out of animal form. With 3 fighter feats spent on melee power, will end up at 86 melee power.

VKF single dagger shouldn't work in animal form. It specifically states it requires single weapon style:
Single Dagger: When fighting single weapon style with a dagger: +20 Melee Power

VKF double daggers is specifically worded differently to indicate it doesn't require a fighting style.
Double Daggers: When fighting with a dagger in each hand: +20% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding weapons.

But if your focus is just on melee DPS, you're either gonna multiclass or use Vistani tree (or both).

See, it's a nightmare. Even you are saying to use vistani, which is clearly exploiting when using single dagger. It's not just me that could use clarification.

[edrein]

Why not 41 AP VKF core 6 T4 for 40 melee power, and 31 AP kensai T5 for 40 more melee power, 8 AP KTA out of animal form. With 3 fighter feats spent on melee power, will end up at 86 melee power.

VKF single dagger shouldn't work in animal form. It specifically states it requires single weapon style:
Single Dagger: When fighting single weapon style with a dagger: +20 Melee Power

VKF double daggers is specifically worded differently to indicate it doesn't require a fighting style.
Double Daggers: When fighting with a dagger in each hand: +20% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding weapons.



See, it's a nightmare. Even you are saying to use vistani, which is exploiting when using single dagger. It's not just me that could use clarification.

Actually, you're wrong. Single Dagger does work temporarily in animal form. Really they need to rework that ability in general. As it currently works with Runearms on live, yet doesn't work with any other offhand item. It needs to be a clear-cut all or nothing, or any offhand deal.

And it doesn't require SWF to work at all. It merely requires you to wield a dagger in your main hand, the same as Double Dagger requires two daggers.
Edit: I reread it. -If- the implication is SWF then orbs should work with this ability. However they don't.

And I suggested the use of Vistani for Deadly Blades, AKA: +1W to daggers.

[Tilomere]

Ya I haven't tested the tree out. Just got RL a week ago.

Is the dagger down animation faster? Imma make a swashy next life and test it out.

Actually, you're wrong. Single Dagger does work temporarily in animal form.

According to how it is worded, double daggers could be seen to work in animal form, but single dagger definitely should not work in animal form. I guess just wait till a few months after it hits live and find out what works then.

[edrein]

Ya I haven't tested the tree out. Just got RL a week ago.

Is the dagger down animation faster? Imma make a swashy next life and test it out.



According to how it is worded, double daggers could be seen to work in animal form, but single dagger definitely should not work in animal form. I guess just wait till a few months after it hits live and find out what works then.

I posted the results of that in my bug thread. It indeed does work with animal forms. Although 20% is rather paltry. Single Dagger breaks if you item swap for whatever reason (even to another dagger) while wildshaped. And I'm definitely against not allowing Single Dagger to work with animals. Right now it's the only potential thing making one handed weapons look viable for animal forms. If they fix it to work with all offhand items then druids are in a better spot as a whole (as shields are not as punitive with the combat style changes).

If they don't then I don't see any reason to use any offhand unless you're running Double Daggers. You'd be better off slapping on something like Stout Oak Walking Stick and using the +2W shillelagh or frankly any other two handed build for 1.5x stat to damage.

[unbongwah]

Dusting off an old flavor build: DEX-based TWF druid updated for Vistani.

Race: any, though the DEX races make most sense. I'll be using SDK but for Gamer Geoff use halfling.
Class: druid 17 / rogue or monk 3

• druid 17 is for lvl 9 spells + both elemental forms. This is not a caster-DPS build, though, so spells will mostly be for buffs & heals. As such, it's intended to run in fire-elemental form for the Positive Spellpower bonus, though water elemental will be an option too.
• rogue or monk 3 is necessary for DEX to-hit & dmg with daggers. Obviously rogue gets you trap skills while monk gets you extra feats plus all the pros & cons of playing a centered toon these days. I'll be using the rogue option in this build.
• druid 18 / rgr 2 would also work but you don't get free Evasion that way and I'm not spending enough APs in the druid trees to get any of the lvl 18 cores. Maybe I'll save that for an extra-flavorful version which also goes for Manyshot.

Stats (36pt SDK): DEX 20 (+lvl-ups) / CON 16 / INT 16
Feats: TWF/ITWF/GTWF, Precision, IC:Pierce+OC, Quicken, Emp Heal, Epic DR, PTWF - remaining feats season to taste
Enhancements: 41 Vistani / 6-8 Harper / 9 Assassin or Ninja / 6 Nature's Protector / 8 NW / 4 SH / 4-6 <filler>

• Vistani is primary tree for melee DPS. DEX to-hit and damage comes from 1st two cores of either Assassin or Ninja plus Melee Power Boost. Harper for Know the Angles. NP for defensive stance (+20 PRR/MRR). NW 1st two cores for extra 10% fort bypass and Prey on the Weak for +15% helpless damage. Season's Herald for Beguile plus the Positive Energy bonus in fire elemental form.

Epic Destiny: any of the usual melee options, although Primal Avatar is getting a nice boost to Melee Power (24 -> 60), so for max flavor I would say stick with that.

[edrein]

Dusting off an old flavor build: DEX-based TWF druid updated for Vistani.

• rogue or monk 3 is necessary for DEX to-hit & dmg with daggers. Obviously rogue gets you trap skills while monk gets you extra feats plus all the pros & cons of playing a centered toon these days. I'll be using the rogue option in this build.

Monk is your best option DPS wise. Fire stance for the extra multiplier and twist A Dance of Flowers for an additional 1.5W. Being centered provides the highest dagger DPS.

[Maelodic]

Can confirm that Winter Hunt now works with BOGW and Energy Burst.

No gear-
BOGW
200-300 damage normal, very rare crit for ~500
Under winter hunt same damage, but far more frequent crits for ~700-800

Energy Burst:
2-3k damage normal - couldn't get any crits to pop
2-3k damage normal - many crits for 5-7k

With some cold spellpower investment you could do the situational nuke thing. With patched together (ie, little thought into it) ravenloft gear and no augments, energy burst was critting over 10k under winter hunt and crit often. Cold Breath was critting for around ~1100 - the only use I found for it at epic levels was stacking arcane warrior but Dire Charge would be a whole lot better.

It makes the most sense to invest in Evocation as a hybrid druid over enchantment even though howl of terror is both good and enchantment. Due to my limited testing abilities at the moment I can't test if it's subject to spell resistance, but I'm sure it is. Given that Earthquake DC is a lot easier to obtain and Howl of Terror would be quite an investment for one spell, it's probably wise just to use it before stacking creeping cold/greater creeping cold and energy burst for maximum efficiency.

As a side note, using snowslide more has made it my favorite movement ability by far.

Dragonborn cold breath flat out doesn't work. Doesn't do damage. So I can't test the relentless breath idea from before.

Currently, I'm looking at my previous gnome build - TRing my monkey into a deep gnome puppy beforehand because I won't need to pay for the +1 heart. Just need to finalize it before pulling the trigger on that TR.

I had considered switching out the cleaves for natural fighting but everything natural fighting gives are not unique stats - you can find them somwehere else. All other combat feats give something that is either difficult or impossible to find elsewhere. You can't replace cleaves. I'm not sure even with the doublestrike the feats are worth it for a hybrid who will be spamming cleaves and using spells. I'd grab them on a rage bear, or a a pure melee wolf though. Probably.

[Silverleafeon]

Race ~ any possibly one with self-heals

Stats ~ push Int, good Con, some Wis, some Cha

Class Order?

Wizard 12 -> Arch Mage tier 5/core 12
Favored Soul 4 -> +8 force crit chance
Druid 4 -> +8 force crit chance


Heroic Feats ~

Maximize
Empower
Enlarge
Quicken
Mental Toughness
Improved Mental Toughness
Heighten / Skill Focus (Spellcraft)


Epic Feats ~

21) Well Spring of Power
24) Master of Knowledge
26ED) Epic Spellpower (Force)
27) Ruin
28ED) Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft) / Hellball
29ED) Arcane Pulse
30) Great Ruin
30L) Scion of the Plane of Fire



Epic Destiny Shirdai?




Enhancements

Season's Herald Tree --> 22 points for tier four Wax and Wane
Angel of Vengeance Tree --> 24 points for tier four Smiting & Intense Faith
Archmage Tree --> 34 points for Arcane Blast & Arcane Supremacy

[unbongwah]

Couple of ideas for specific alts of mine. First, WIS-based melee wolf / caster hybrid:

Druid 20
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight




Stats
               34pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        14       +2       4: WIS
Dexterity       10       +3       8: WIS
Constitution    16       +2      12: WIS
Intelligence     8       +2      16: WIS
Wisdom          18       +2      20: WIS
Charisma         8       +2      24: WIS
                                 28: WIS


Feats


 1        : Quicken Spell
 1 PDK    : Maximize Spell
 3        : Precision
 6        : Martial Weapon: Falchion
 9        : Empower Spell
12        : Improved Critical: Slashing
15        : Heighten Spell OR Empower Healing Spell
18        : Spell Focus: Evocation
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Burst of Glacial Wrath
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Mass Frog
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Intensify Spell OR Empower Healing Spell
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Fire


 2 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Wolf
 5 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Bear
 8 Druid  : Wild Shape 2: Winter Wolf
11 Druid  : Wild Shape 2: Dire Bear
13 Druid  : Wild Shape 3: Water Elemental
17 Druid  : Wild Shape 3: Fire Elemental

Listed tomes are what I think are on this particular alt. PDK just for the extra feat and to start at level 15. Specced to use falchions, obviously.

Enhancements: 41 NW / 31 SH (Storm of Vengeance SLA) / 6 NP (defensive stance) / 1 PDK (Melee Power Boost) with 1 AP filler.

Next: HO STR build

HO Wolf
Druid 20
True Neutral Half-Orc




Stats
               28pt     32pt     34pt     36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     ----     ----     ----     --------
Strength        20       20       20       20       +2       4: STR
Dexterity        8        8        8        8       +2       8: STR
Constitution    14       16       15       16       +2      12: STR
Intelligence    12       12       14       14       +2      16: STR
Wisdom           8        8        8        8       +2      20: STR
Charisma         6        6        6        6       +2      24: STR
                                                            28: STR


Feats


 1        : Power Attack
 3        : Cleave
 6        : Martial Weapon: Falchion
 9        : Quicken Spell
12        : Improved Critical: Slashing
15        : Great Cleave
18        : Natural Fighting
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Natural Fighting
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: First Blood OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Natural Fighting
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea OR Plane of Water


 2 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Wolf
 5 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Bear
 8 Druid  : Wild Shape 2: Winter Wolf
11 Druid  : Wild Shape 2: Dire Bear
13 Druid  : Wild Shape 3: Water Elemental
17 Druid  : Wild Shape 3: Fire Elemental

Again specced for falchions, though I'd actually use SOS for heroics - yay, 10th anniversary party gift! Did anyone test if Orcish Rage by itself triggers Rage of the Beast bonuses?


Enhancements: 41 NW / 18 HO (Brutality) / 13 NP / 8 Harper

[elvesunited]

Couple of ideas for specific alts of mine. Next: HO STR build

HO Wolf
Druid 20
True Neutral Half-Orc




Stats
               28pt     32pt     34pt     36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     ----     ----     ----     --------
Strength        20       20       20       20       +2       4: STR
Dexterity        8        8        8        8       +2       8: STR
Constitution    14       16       15       16       +2      12: STR
Intelligence    12       12       14       14       +2      16: STR
Wisdom           8        8        8        8       +2      20: STR
Charisma         6        6        6        6       +2      24: STR
                                                            28: STR


Feats


 1        : Power Attack
 3        : Cleave
 6        : Martial Weapon: Falchion
 9        : Quicken Spell
12        : Improved Critical: Slashing
15        : Great Cleave
18        : Natural Fighting
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Natural Fighting
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: First Blood OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Natural Fighting
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea OR Plane of Water


 2 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Wolf
 5 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Bear
 8 Druid  : Wild Shape 2: Winter Wolf
11 Druid  : Wild Shape 2: Dire Bear
13 Druid  : Wild Shape 3: Water Elemental
17 Druid  : Wild Shape 3: Fire Elemental

Again specced for falchions, though I'd actually use SOS for heroics - yay, 10th anniversary party gift! Did anyone test if Orcish Rage by itself triggers Rage of the Beast bonuses?


Enhancements: 41 NW / 18 HO (Brutality) / 13 NP / 8 Harper

Similar what I came up with.

Enhancements: 41 NW / 20 HO (Brutality / Raging Crush ) / 11 NP / 8 Harper
I also took Natural fighting instead of cleave and great cleave feats.
( I am curious why you are taking intelligence and dumping wisdom )

1) Currently all NW attacks ( alpha strike, throat strike, go for kill, and ghost pack ) all strike multiple targets. Not sure if this is WAI for two of them.

2) while the spell point cost right now is double the description for NW attacks ( and prohibitive for a melee attack clicky ) I don't think that is WAI. If spell point cost is fixed to match description then they fall into sustainable DPS territory.

3) combined with cheap to cast wolf innate spells ( takedown and baiting bite ) and the half-orc crushing blow the hot bar is going get pretty full.

4) And at +1 Tactics, +4 double strike, +4 PRR, +4 melee power the Natural Fighting feats are no longer so easy to ignore.

[Maelodic]

Couple of ideas for specific alts of mine. First, WIS-based melee wolf / caster hybrid:

Druid 20
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight

You take Falcion proficiency- why not go half elf with Fighter dilly for the effective same amount of feats and then opens you up to weapons like SoS and Carnifex while leveling- and then gives you freedom to use whatever weapon you want at endgame? I know you lose out on the damage boost but IMO it's worth it.

Enhancements: 41 NW / 31 SH (Storm of Vengeance SLA) / 6 NP (defensive stance)

I've considered this split - do you think the storm/SLAs will make up for losing the Cleave line?