Lammania Druid Update

[edrein]

I'll admit it's been ages since I've used the bear spells as their original implementation was very 'meh' at best. That being said after messing around with the new abilities and changes, I like most of them.

Save one Enhancement change. Savage Roar is clearly supposed to replace the current Reaving Roar. And I honestly think it's a good change. That is until I actually cast Roar and saw what the spell does. 50% hate gen is fine if you're tanking. It's even fine if it was a temporary buff when you're trying to DPS. But at 20 minutes duration I'd never want to try and use Savage Roar when I know I'm about to increase my aggro by a noticeable amount as a bear DPS.

Is there any way we could get Savage Roar changed to either function like Reaving Roar in a manner of speaking? I'd prefer that once you get three stacks of Killer Instincts it could automatically proc the Roar. This way the same mechanical idea plays the same without punishing bears that aren't trying to be hate tanks.

If that's too much, might I suggest making a secondary version of the defensive stance in the tree that is instead focused for DPS bears/bearbarians, let the secondary stance prevent any form of hate gen effects from druid spells/abilities.

[Pilgrim1]

I'll admit it's been ages since I've used the bear spells as their original implementation was very 'meh' at best. That being said after messing around with the new abilities and changes, I like most of them.

Save one Enhancement change. Savage Roar is clearly supposed to replace the current Reaving Roar. And I honestly think it's a good change. That is until I actually cast Roar and saw what the spell does. 50% hate gen is fine if you're tanking. It's even fine if it was a temporary buff when you're trying to DPS. But at 20 minutes duration I'd never want to try and use Savage Roar when I know I'm about to increase my aggro by a noticeable amount as a bear DPS.

You can drop bear form and re-enter it. That clears all form specific buffs.

[edrein]

You can drop bear form and re-enter it. That clears all form specific buffs.

That's hardly an effective work around. And I certainly wouldn't do that with the frequency I would be casting roar in combat for the stun/damage.

[Iriale]

If it had the same radius as a symbol I would be fine with that. Otherwise, except maybe in special circumstances, I still don't see a good reason to slot the spell. When you encounter 5-10 mobs at a time typically in quests, a slow casting single target snare isn't going to be very useful with a small radius and mobs saving in the 6 second time. For rangers you aren't going to be taking any feats (not that there is really any space to do it anyways) and there really isn't any enhancements to boost the DC. Raising it to 6 seconds and lowering the sp cost just isn't attractive enough for me unless there can be some real changes. Ah well, maybe next ranger pass.

I asked repeatedly in the previous thread that Torc improved the casting of Snare, because it is slow and uncomfortable. I did not think their effects were bad, but their casting, which should be analogous to Hold Person. It's perfect that it only affects one objective (although if in the future devs create a version Snare mass lv 9, it would be great, druids don't have so many high level spells). But my problem with the spell is that it is little practical to cast in combat

No one else seconded my request, so it was ignored. My English is not good either. Please, also ask for an improvement to the cast of Snare. A change in this sense is more necessary than in its effects.

[Iriale]

Druid Pass - The following changes are up on Lammania. This is not the "entire" pass, but a lions share of it. Some spells have yet to be modified such as call lightning and storm of vengeance.

Good changes in general. I love the removing of death penalty for pets, now the pet at least will be used.

6. Specific Spell Changes

Ty for the changes. Only two requests: snare needs more an improvement in his casting than his effects. Please, try using it in combat. It is slow and uncomfortable of cast.

I can't test if Creeping cold and Greater creeping remove Niac's or not. Can u test this, please? (old bug this)

Nature's Wellspring: The effects of your shillelagh are doubled. +1 max caster level in your active season

I suggest you to swap beguile and the x2 shillelagh of Nature's Wellspring. This effect (x2 shillelagh) is only useful in the first 3 levels for a druid caster, and should be easily accessible to a melee druid. Level 6 is too late for this effect to be useful. At level 6 a druid caster is full caster, and it is a bit late for a melee druid that needs invest first in melee trees. Beguile not always work, but it will be fine as core paired with the +1 max caster level in the active season

6. Hierophant: You are wise and skilled in the art of wielding divine magic to summon aid and change the world around you. +2 Wisdom +2 Con +10 Universal spell power. Your Conjuration and Evocation spells gain +1 DC, +1 caster level and +1 max caster level. (update – decreased wis/con bonus and mass caster levels)

I really don't like the +2 Wisdom +2 Con, should be +4 Wis, +0 CON

Autumn Leaves: Toggle ability: Leaves always seem to blow around the druid. Grants feather fall, +2 dodge and 5% proc chance on anyone hitting you in melee to be knocked down by a blast of air. Costs: 15 SP Lasts until death or toggled off AP COST: 1

Love this. Very flavorous

Spring Resurgence: Fill an ally with the vitality of spring. When that ally falls below 50% hit points, that ally and any other allies near him are healed by 20d6
positive energy, and receive a +2 primal bonus to attack rolls. (Lasts 5 minutes or until triggered.) (Activation Cost: [8/6/4] Spell Points.)
Cooldown: [8/4/2] seconds) AP COST: 1 (new – lowered cooldown to make buffing party easier)

ty for the lower cooldown!

Strength of the Solstice: +1 to the save DC's of your Evocation and Conjuration spells AP COST: 2

In tier 4. Very nice, ty

Crown of Summer: A target of your choice is filled with the light and vitality of summer. That target gains a 15% enhancement bonus to Healing Amplification, and 10 melee power and 5 ranged power. (Activation Cost: 1 Spell Point. Cooldown: 6 seconds) Only one target can have the crown at a time. AP COST: 1

mmm have u lowered the healing amplification, or it is a text oversight? (It was raised when the healing amplification changes)

Master of the Elements: Gain 5/10/15 spell power in your season. Passive rank 3: If the character has 17 druid levels they gain anger of the noonday sun or mantle of icy when changing in the appropriate elemental form. This effect costs 8 spells points when it occurs.

Flavorous, like it

Word of Balance: Spell Like Ability: Word of Balance (Cost: [12/9/6] SP. Cooldown: [20/15/10] seconds) AP COST: 1 Requires: Salt Ray (will fix bug with this spell getting blocked by spell resistance)

ty for removing the spell resistance. Seriously. Word of balance is a very thematic spell for druid.

Armor of Winter: Gain 8 times your wisdom in temporary Hit points that lasts 60 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds, Sp Cost: 12) AP COST: 2 (new – moved spell power and allow it to work in any elemental form/season)

Wow! This is great

I can't test in game until Saturday, but I am dying for see this in game. Very good changes, ty, Torc

[unbongwah]

Ghost Wolf: Requires wolf form. Activate, gain 35% incorporeal defense for 20 seconds, Cooldown 60 seconds. SP Cost: 15 Passive: Gain ghost touch while in wolf form to your melee attacks AP COST: 2

Is this supposed to display a buff icon when used? Because it appears to activate properly, but there's no buff icon to tell you it's running. I only tested in the dojo, so I don't know if you're actually getting 35% incorporeal.

[Silverleafeon]

Forgot to check D&D lore first.

Never mind, imperfect brainstorming.

I do not want to go against D&D lore.



;;;;;;




[QUOTE=Iriale;6078287Good changes in general. I love the removing of death penalty for pets, now the pet at least will be used.

[color=red]+1 Yes, fire and forget philosophy will make Pets more welcome.
I know a good player who casts SM 6 before entering high reaper rooms just for cannon fodder.[/color]


I can't test if Creeping cold and Greater creeping remove Niac's or not. Can u test this, please? (old bug this)

Please do test.


I suggest you to swap beguile and the x2 shillelagh of Nature's Wellspring. This effect (x2 shillelagh) is only useful in the first 3 levels for a druid caster, and should be easily accessible to a melee druid. Level 6 is too late for this effect to be useful. At level 6 a druid caster is full caster, and it is a bit late for a melee druid that needs invest first in melee trees. Beguile not always work, but it will be fine as core paired with the +1 max caster level in the active season

This seems very reasonable and logical.
I would be agreeable to this change.


I really don't like the +2 Wisdom +2 Con, should be +4 Wis, +0 CON

I prefer +4 Wis as well, but this will lead to Wizard and Sorcerer Capstones becoming +4 int and +4 cha.
But that could be a good thing to promote pure builds.


mmm have u lowered the healing amplification, or it is a text oversight? (It was raised when the healing amplification changes)

Yes, it is 30 on live, it even says so in the buff bar.


ty for removing the spell resistance. Seriously. Word of balance is a very thematic spell for druid.

Indeed, thank you!

[Iriale]

[color=red]I would like to suggest reviewing all Druid Transmutation Spells to see if any need moving to Evocation or Conjuration.
{Note that it is obvious the original designers had some fears of Druid being over powerful and spread the Schools improperly.}

I feel that this will address any concerns over the removal of Transmutation Bonuses to the Season's Herald tree.


Entangle
Quench
Snare
Spike Growth
Ice Flowers
Harrowing Pack

all those spells are transmutacion in pnp, Silver. I don't think that is needed to change their school. there is lore reasons for transmutation school. For example, web create a web, but with snare you make a snare that functions as a magic trap from any supple vine, a thong, or a rope (aka, change a thing, it is a transmutation)

[SirValentine]

I would like to suggest reviewing all Druid Transmutation Spells to see if any need moving to Evocation or Conjuration.
{Note that it is obvious the original designers had some fears of Druid being over powerful and spread the Schools improperly.}

I feel that this will address any concerns over the removal of Transmutation Bonuses to the Season's Herald tree.

Transmutation is not Evocation. That's not "improper".

I do not feel that ignoring lore and nerfing an entire spell school completely out of existence would be an appropriate way to address the proposed nerf to it's DCs.

If they're not over-performing, then just don't nerf them at all!

[edrein]

After testing for myself, I have to agree wolf single target damage is straight down the dumps now. However, I noticed a small faint glimmer of hope when I used Double Daggers from Vistani and did infact give myself offhand strikes.

Please for the love of all that's good and holy, make the wolf version of Natural Fighting provide 10% offhand chance similar to the 10% glancing blows. Base wolves will get to 30%, multiclassed/vistani-pures will get to 50% maximum. This is a solid compromise to the now neutered single target damage equation for wolves.

[edrein]

Additionally is a technical limitation the reason we cannot have shield bash procs (effectively functioning as offhand strikes) for wildshapes? Given the internal 1 second CD, I don't really see how this could be an OP situation.

Overall; I feel like you took a step in the right direction by using weapon stats. Although there are some funny interactions caused by that (such as Volcano Slash/other Legendary Dreadnaught weapon attacks working but non-animated attacks such as Vistani's rapid Attack don't work) and a slight bad spot.

As I've stated in my list of bugs and issues, currently shield mastery is working and applying it's benefits. Is this intentional and a repeal against the initial stance against this per our feedback?

Might I suggest allowing Shield Bashes to work if technically possible? The reason for this is from both a DPS and utility perspective. Shield's aren't very DPS oriented and infact they required the Vistani treatment in the form of Vanguard to bring up their DPS value for Sword and Board builds. From the utility side of things almost every update post Thunderforged has included a wooden or druid compatible shield most of which include Bashing enchantments. This gives more life and use to shields for druids. Shields are no longer a sort of secondary wasteful option for DPS druids. Unless Shield Mastery is intentionally working with animal forms. Then there isn't a massive DPS loss for defense gain.

However, as things stand. From my playback and tinkering. I see absolutely no reason to forgo using a two handed weapon on any animal form druid, even tanks if Shield Mastery is nixed. Gaining 1.5x your stat to damage is just too delicious to give up even on a tank.

Currently Dethek Runestone, which was my only example of not losing DPS by forgoing a two hander, is not providing the +2W it's supposed to. This is literally the only shield as is that isn't a liability for druids.

There is no DPS-oriented orb in the game, and you cannot slot a Dragon's Edged thunderforged orb on a druid due to druidic oath.

So currently the only option if Shield Mastery is not WAI is to use a two hander.

I formally suggest the following options:
1. Allow shield bashes.
2. Allow offhand magical effects on equipment to apply to the mainhand while wildshaped, similar to throwers using an offhand for procs.
3. Allow Shield Mastery to work with animal forms.

[Kza]

Plz be Sure uptime on t5 hitpoints really is 60s. Its lower right now, like 30s.

Plz add transmutation dc at all places there you have + Evo and con.

Plz change capstone to +4 + 0

——//
I think druid casters will be really fun and good! But absolutely not
Op. Warlocks way stronger solo. Clerics and souls on par for groups.

Serms like druids will be in a nice spot! :-)

(This only as a caster druid and in my perspective skulls 1-5)

(Did any test If you get heavy armor prof in ele form btw?)

[edrein]

Not entirely druid exclusive, but I figure I should repost this here as well.


Not sure if this is the proper place to make the suggestion, but given the bleed through with the systems changes in general. Might I make a suggestion for new Legendary feats?

Scion of Shavarath:

• You gain +2 Healing Hands charges if you are an Aasimar.
• Add 2d20 Evil damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
• Gain; Blade Barrier SLA.

Scion of Irian:

• You gain +2 Healing Hands charges if you are an Aasimar.
• Add 1d20 Light damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)
• Melee, ranged, and offensive spell damage have a chance to proc a burst of blinding light. (Similar to Brazen Brilliance on Echo of The Sunsword.)

Scion of Lamannia:

• You gain +1W when in a wildshape form.
• Druid Mantle spells are doubled in effect.
• Melee, ranged, and offensive spell damage deal 1d10 random elemental damage and have a chance to proc an AoE burst of random elemental damage. (Scales with the appropriate Spell Power)

Additionally a level 24 Master feat for Shapeshifting would be nice as well.

Master of Wildshapes:

• You gain +1W when in a wildshape form.
• If you are in a bear form; gain the effects of +20 PRR and MRR, +10 natural armor, and +15 melee power.
• If you are in a wolf form; gain the effects of +2 sneak attack die, +10 reflex saves, and improved deception effect on attacks.

[SerPounce]

I guess Lamania is down now?

All of the SP costs and cooldowns of the animal attacks need to be looked at.

Right now animal druids are hemorrhaging SP like a sorcerer and they don't have the pool for it. Essence of nature isn't close to enough to make up for it (and doesn't work on bear at all). I'd like to see the animal attacks being more or less "revenue neutral" with the temp SP and the bulk of your modest SP pool at your disposal for "real spells."

The cool downs are really long also. Jaws of winter is a centerpiece for the wolf, but the cooldown is prohibitive. CD should be no longer than 12 seconds which would put it in line with other tactics. Same with Alpha Strike: Why does the druid cleave cost SP and have over twice the CD as a regular cleave? 5 second CD max (I would go 3 or 4;it is a T5 ability after all. Supreme cleave is T3 and has a 3 second CD), and either no or very low SP. You can have it share a CD with cleave or great cleave if you don't want to many cleaves available.

[SerPounce]

However, as things stand. From my playback and tinkering. I see absolutely no reason to forgo using a two handed weapon on any animal form druid, even tanks if Shield Mastery is nixed. Gaining 1.5x your stat to damage is just too delicious to give up even on a tank.

Yup, with the current implementation you need to use a 2 hander if melee DPS is something you want to do at all. As I said in the other thread, if 2 handers aren't going to be the only viable option then the off hand has to contribute DPS in some way (like through shield mastery feats and LSM destiny ability). An extra slot for a few standard gear attributes doesn't make up for the DPS unless DPS is a very low priority for your build.

Now maybe that's by design. If you want to DPS you have to invest in a martial feat, and you don't get your off hand slot. I don't think that's a terrible design decision, but it is a bit of a newb trap since druids don't come with proficiency in the weapons they ought to be using.

*Note, I don't want the balance here to be individual items like the runestone shield. That's just one shield in a rarely run raid. Basic system mechanics shouldn't' be balanced with individual obscure items.

[edrein]

Yup, with the current implementation you need to use a 2 hander if melee DPS is something you want to do at all. As I said in the other thread, if 2 handers aren't going to be the only viable option then the off hand has to contribute DPS in some way (like through shield mastery feats and LSM destiny ability). An extra slot for a few standard gear attributes doesn't make up for the DPS unless DPS is a very low priority for your build.

Now maybe that's by design. If you want to DPS you have to invest in a martial feat, and you don't get your off hand slot. I don't think that's a terrible design decision, but it is a bit of a newb trap since druids don't come with proficiency in the weapons they ought to be using.

*Note, I don't want the balance here to be individual items like the runestone shield. That's just one shield in a rarely run raid. Basic system mechanics shouldn't' be balanced with individual obscure items.

My referencing to Dethek Runestone is mostly because as it stands, it's the only shield in the game that isn't a direct 100% DPS loss for an animal druid. But when it comes to druids I hate to say it; they do in fact have to balance mechanics around individual obscure items simply because druids have gotten very unique ones that could easily break balance. No one seems to be bringing up items such as Hide of the Fallen. Sure on live it's only +10 damage, but that's base damage before multipliers. With the new system using actual weapon die, that's a rather noticable (albeit not nearly enough) bump in dps. I was testing it on Lamannia and kept silent about it since most folk forgot the cloak existed. It was only a good 30-40 damage difference on non-crits, but every little bit helps.

Now whether or not the devs want to facelift these individual druid-based items is up to them. But they do have to be considered in the equation, and I almost certainly feel as if the devs keep track of this. It's probably one of the major reasons they refuse to buff the majority on the account of the obscure.

In my example on shield bashes, Dethek Runestone doesn't have such. Nor does it have a nice crit profile or damage profile compared to say Devil's Defense, Terminus, or Best Defense for the sake of DPS. However assuming a druid snags up Improved Shield Bash for that base 20% chance, that's a small bump in their DPS.

It's not nearly as much as the bump Vistani's Double Daggers provides or Half Elf Tempest or Shintao's Deft Strikes. But you need to consider these sorts of things.

I think giving druids either or would help a lot. Shield Mastery line with all the amenities helps in making shields viable offhands. Allowing Shield Bashes on top of that helps with addressing the DPS issues.

Allowing Offhand for wolves also helps them greatly. 30% offhand via Natural Fighting line. Then let them pick up the rest via multiclassing or vistani, the same situation that bears find themselves in for Glancing Blow damage. It's a fair trade for removing the access and use of the direct combat styles. You remove the non-WAI/exploit nature and instead put down a solid basis for what can and will work. You reduce and remove a great deal of the original overperforming symptoms, no more 75% attack speed with 80-100% offhand and god know's how much doublestrike above a permanent 50%. Instead with the changes we've seen you won't have that original 18% doublestrike bonus. You'll get 30% offhand as a normal druid. If you want to hit 50% you slap on vistani, half elf, or multiclass. From there you have Perfect TWF for offhand doublestrike chance as well as Aasimar Scourge Pastlife.

You lose some of the original flavor, but you bridge the gap between the here and now and the future. If it's over performing then fix it later during the next round of melee balance passes.

[SerPounce]

Now whether or not the devs want to facelift these individual druid-based items is up to them. But they do have to be considered in the equation, and I almost certainly feel as if the devs keep trac

Sure, you have to consider the effects of items as they exist, but I don't understand why you would buff what's already the best druid shield as a way of making S&B more attractive for druids. If anything you would want to mitigate the effects of that particular item while making S&B more viable generally.

[SerPounce]

Another random note: Please consider adding nightshield to the druid spell list or adding some other form of magic missile immunity for quality of life purposes. You can't use wands or scrolls in animal form so it's going to be a real PitA to switch out of form and whip that shield wand every few minutes so you don't get pummeled by the absurd number of magic missiles that fly around in reaper.

[edrein]

Sure, you have to consider the effects of items as they exist, but I don't understand why you would buff what's already the best druid shield as a way of making S&B more attractive for druids. If anything you would want to mitigate the effects of that particular item while making S&B more viable generally.

That shield is only the best in slot if you're using the S&B with the intent to DPS. Let alone with the concept that Shield Mastery is going to remain working with druids.

If shield bashing is allowed, then over half of the named shields in epic levels become viable options for druids. Shields no longer become relegated to heal amp Wall of Woods, the rare Dethek Runestone (since no one runs the raid), or the odd cannith crafted gear.

If an offhand weapon's enchanted effects are enabled into your damage calculation, then suddenly carrying another weapon is viable and worthwhile beyond my earlier example of using Double Daggers from Vistani just to snag the 20% offhand proc.

I'd like to see Dethek Runestone buffed to provide a slight parity with other endgame items as far as the damage reduction is concerned, and I certainly want to see the +2W effect fixed for live. But I'm more hoping that I can convince the devs to try the shield bashes, offhand enchants, or any other option first hand. Or atleast explain why they've decided the road best traveled is to kill build diversity and force the two handed meta.

[elvesunited]

I managed "Essence of Shrike" with a wolf though I almost never cast "Jaws of Winter". ( To costly for +6W and an effect that would never go off) I believe that my crit range was 18-20. ( wolf criticals being broken ) So even with lower attack speed, loss of off hand attacks, and loss of doublestrike, Wolves should be able to compensate with higher crit ranges such as:

Falchion can get you 15-20. 14-20 if you multiclass and go Tier 5 Kensei.
You can also get auto-crit attacks from Kensei Tier 5 or Half-orc Tier 4.

Comparing a half-orc nature warrior two hander Vs a Vistani dagger and shield I found the half-orc two hander is doing about ( 9 + 2*W + 1/2 str bonus ) more points damage. The Vistani compensates with more defense. I suspect adding fighter levels and kensei could pump that even higher.

Ravenloft broke me. I will never again build a character without either the ability to cast a magic missile protection spell ( like Nightshield ) or the UMD to cast it from a scroll. ( and really it only takes one point of UMD and some items )

Alpha strike used to do more damage but they're nerfing it so it only does that level of damage if you are holding the equivalent of a legendary ravenloft weapon. It still doublestrikes which cleaves don't.