U38 Balance Changes

[Soleran100]

Slowest attack rate, but best burst DPS at ranged in the game.

Its not like DDO isnt chucked full of encounters where you fight 6-8 mobs waiting for you to attack, followed by downtime where you can recover cool downs without any incoming damage pressure.

Which would you make the benchmark, which then gets balanced around?

There are some greater ruin casters you should talk to also then.

Specifically, no you don't nerf the lowest dps with the highest burst...........that is actually the balance itself.

[chrysahor]

The problem though is basic archetype. Front line warriors are historically/mythically fodder or only excel in a setting where magic isn't available or is extremely limited. I just don't know this can be changed without making everything generic and nobody wants generic.

That’s a vey narrowed view and there is absolutely no reason for that, except intended design.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRDevastating_Critical
Is a d&d feat that doesn’t exist in ddo. There is no reason why melee can’t instakill (even AoE if you cleave on this), except design.

Vanilla Superman is low magic setting, yet physical prowess are able to go as far as reversing time. Magic is just that, something you justify by its “magical nature”. In a fantastical, non magical, setting you could imagine “melee” using fireball just by heating the air with fast hand movement...anime has plenty of these kind of things.

It would however be harder to justify a cosmetic change with physical prowess. A conjurer would summon clothes, an illusionist would make you believe he changed clothes...now the Flash would make you think he used magic while he actually went home, changed and got back before you could blink.

[gwonbush]

That’s a vey narrowed view and there is absolutely no reason for that, except intended design.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRDevastating_Critical
Is a d&d feat that doesn’t exist in ddo. There is no reason why melee can’t instakill (even AoE if you cleave on this), except design.

Technically, Devastating Critical does exist in DDO. It's in Legendary Dreadnaught and adds an addition +1 to your crit multiplier on a 19-20.

[Ballrus]

I agree, that is why I said there is no diversity in this game when 1 or 2 builds are being used to exhaustion.

It is hard to balance melee and caster/ranged builds, caster/range advantage mainly lies in being able to stay out of danger while damaging enemies if you remove that you removed their essence. Devs have to work to reduce their dps, it is an obvious trade off: If you want to avoid damage by staying in the back rows you will cause less damage just like a tank build should have less dps than a dps focus melee build.

I will repeat: Change the way the burst damage feats( 10k star, manyshot, unbridled fury, master blitz and zeal) interact with ranged weapons.

Endless fusilade works only with xbow, 10k star should work only with thrown (remove 10k star-zen archery interaction) and manyshot only with bow, it makes sense no matter what people say. Make manyshot available only to Rangers at level 9, the same way 10k star is essential for a nice thrower build and the only way to have it is being a monk, why not make the same with manyshot?

Have in mind that I love ranged builds and my favorite so far is Arcane Archer pure Druid, so I am playing against me by advocating manyhsot to become a lvl 9 ranger exclusive feat.

Melee class are the frontline in a battle, they are there to take all the damage. Playes must have in mind that high skull count is supposed to be challenging and it was brought to try to reinforce group play. If Devs increase defenses too much, reaper will become the new elite. A min/max toon might not work as well as in elite content, deal with it, you gotta be balanced, just like the group, with healer, CC specialist and melee for damage and defense. A glass canon won't last long in a hail storm.


I agree with the changes Devs are planning, it is a start. If it works, great. If it doesn't, I hope they come up with new ideas.

First: Do not allow ranged to use Fury of the Wild!
OR
Allow the melee attacks apply Stay frost, rainbow, nerve venom, etc.

Why not? If ranged attacks can use an melee ED, why melee can't use a ranged/caster ED?


And revamp movement:
Running backwards is now at 25% of total speed.
Strife speed at 50% of total speed.

[Ballrus]

First: Do not allow ranged to use Fury of the Wild!
OR
Allow the melee attacks apply Stay frost, rainbow, nerve venom, etc.

Why not? If ranged attacks can use an melee ED, why melee can't use a ranged/caster ED?


And revamp movement:
Running backwards is now at 25% of total speed.
Strife speed at 50% of total speed.

I would like to use Nerve Venom on cleaves, g cleaves, supreme cleaves, strike down, eldritch strike, eldritch tempest, lay waste...

[Kaboom2112]

I would like to use Nerve Venom on cleaves, g cleaves, supreme cleaves, strike down, eldritch strike, eldritch tempest, lay waste...

Since adrenaline works on ranged weapons I cannot refute your logic.

[Hawkwier]

Don't think the choice of Ed should be driven by MP so in principle balancing out MP seems the right thing to do.

EDs were around before MP in any case.

BUT there does need to be some more distinctive and interesting choices available nine choosing EDs. Getting Adrenaline to work on cleaves and double strike would be a start.

I'm not really in favour not adrenaline being melee only, but would thole it if the melee side of it could be sorted out.

[Chai]

There are some greater ruin casters you should talk to also then.

Yeah, at level 30. This shouldnt impact balance in levels 1-29.

Specifically, no you don't nerf the lowest dps with the highest burst...........that is actually the balance itself.

Im not asking for archery to be nerfed. Just when people behave like its so far behind, when it really isnt.

[Celender]

Here it goes some ideas to reduce ranged and melee ED interaction:

Adrenaline and unbridled fury wouldn't work with doubleshot multiplier (manyshot, 10k star) only 1 arrow/thrown/bolt per atack would benefit from the extra damage.

Master blitz: +3 RP per stack instead of +7. It just make sense, Legendary dreadnought core gives +4 MP against +3 RP.

Increase RP from shiradi and shadowdancer to +8RP per innate ability instead of +4.

[WNxDaCraw]

Vistani Weapon Versatility
During our DPS testing we took a look at how this ability impacts builds. We've come to the conclusion that, ultimately, this ability is detrimental to game balance and our ability to make adjustments differently among Melee and Ranged builds. We're planning to make it apply only to Daggers and Throwing Daggers, as it was in our earliest drafts of that ability.


ok can i get a refund on the Vistani package? that ability was the only reason for that tree.

[ccd1977]

This sums it up perfectly. Gimp the Ravenloft wraps not the monk. Adjust the problem not the character using them.

Problem:
Handwrap Monks are too OP at endgame with superwraps.

Solution:
Small nerf to superwraps. Don't touch Shinto Capstone Melee Power, don't adjust down the +Ws; just nerf Henshin Melee Power in every core from 1st to Capstone.

Yeap, makes sense to me...
/headdesk

I have read this thread and monk is my chosen class for last 7 years. Here is my summary on this subject.

1. Monks have fluctuated over these last 7 years from being the low end of playability to the high end. After last year's monk pass they went back to the higher end but not significantly. It seemed a reasonable pass where most monks found themselves useful in solo and groups again.

2. Ravenloft wraps and gears made the monks very high end DPS (mostly attributed to wraps but good synergy with filagrees like Prowess Set). I think that was the point of Ravenloft Gear for all melees was to make "end game" abilities supreme for those who work for the gear, filagrees, etc. Success! But the Duality were just over-performing compared to other melees. Both arguments are valid -- bring the other melees up with better gear or reduce the Duality wraps -- only the Devs know what they have in mind for future game challenges and to where they want there melees at.

3. It seems most testing and analysis (and videos of supreme monk DPS) is at level 30 with such gear. Where are the heroic videos or epic levels videos below 29 demonstrating such incredible DPS?

4. Therefore it appears to me Monks are performing but not over-performing from levels 1-28. Monks are competitive. Monks are happy again. Groups with monks are happy again. So why change what is working by nerfing the Henshin tree? This seems to swing the pendulum back again to make most monks struggle to shine (there will always be great players, with maxed out abilities and personal skills, that will make any class including monks highly successful, but I think the majority of monks are not maxed out nor are in the 1-2% of upper echelon players).

5. Therefore it mainly appears to be a level 29-30 issue and more of a gear issue. That should be the address of any Monk nerfs and related to Duality primarily I would think. Why impact monk at the majority of their career in levels 1-28 by cutting the Henshin MP cores which seem to have been part of a long ago reasonably successful pass? We saw an uptick of monks with the Pass (to be expected) and that tapered off to show they are not the one and only must play class for success in melee. And we saw a large uptick with Ravenloft, probably because of the oversuccess of Duality wraps. Even that though seems to be tapering in the number of monks I see in endgame from a month or two ago.

Alas many of my fellow monks and I tremble at seeing this Henshin core nerf that we will be reduced again to a loaf of bread that sometimes is nice with your meal. I won't get into the philosophy of whether monks should be highest DPS because of their squishy parts, etc. at this time (I did that earlier a bit in this thread anyway). But from reading this and experience suggests to me that the real issue is in moderating monks at end game and that came about because of gear primarily and that is where any adjustments should fall.

Thanks for listening to this thread devs!

[balvix]

Here it goes some ideas to reduce ranged and melee ED interaction:

Adrenaline and unbridled fury wouldn't work with doubleshot multiplier (manyshot, 10k star) only 1 arrow/thrown/bolt per atack would benefit from the extra damage.

Master blitz: +3 RP per stack instead of +7. It just make sense, Legendary dreadnought core gives +4 MP against +3 RP.

Increase RP from shiradi and shadowdancer to +8RP per innate ability instead of +4.

Good lord, you idiots have gone so far off subject that you have now entered Narnia. Stop talking about ranged, this topic is about the nerfs to monks + a few other odds and ends, not a discussion about nerfing or adjusting ranged. The only ranged items in this topic should be vistani and throwing. Going by the way this chat is headed we'll be talking about rollercoasters in Disneyland vs future world at Epcot center.

[Heathir]

Good lord, you idiots have gone so far off subject that you have now entered Narnia. Stop talking about ranged, this topic is about the nerfs to monks + a few other odds and ends, not a discussion about nerfing or adjusting ranged. The only ranged items in this topic should be vistani and throwing. Going by the way this chat is headed we'll be talking about rollercoasters in Disneyland vs future world at Epcot center.

They better not nerf DISNEY!!!!

[grandeibra]

Repeating for the 1000th time: DnD ship has sailed, my friend.

People love to praise diversity, endless option in DDO and still all u see is 2-3 builds been played over and over again, during my druids life I lost count how many people had asked me: "Are you doing gyngerpsice build?" or " Are you a CC focus or bear?" (FYI I did pure AA Druid), or when playing ranger: "Are you using white feather sniper build? and I can go on and on. Just look how many wl we have and how many monk based build we have, is that the diversity you want?

DDO has 14 classes, 11 races, 6 iconic, 36 class enhancement tree,11 racial enhancement tree, 2 universal enhancement tree. Unlimited multiclassing capabilities, 12 epic destines tree. That is enough option to make each character in this game diferent from each other. Can anyone do the math and see how many different options we have?

Once all classes are balanced then we will have true diversity.

You repeating your personal opinion doesn't make it a fact. on the server I play there are a gazillion different builds at endgame, even in upper reaper. Of course some builds are more common than others (and flavor of the month will always exist since many end-gamers are 100% min/maxers - and imo that is fine) but your "2-3 builds" is IMHO a vast exaggeration. And I'm not sure why you make that obvious exaggeration (just like my "gazillion") - to what effect I mean, what is your ambition with this line of reasoning?

Also got no idea what your "dnd ship has sailed" comment was about. Do you mean there's more diversity in DnD than DDO? I have no idea personally and don't find it relevant in any case since ddo is not dnd.

And no all classes will never be balanced since balance means different things to each and every single player. So it is a futile venture - (unless we're talking stuff like fixing the clearly ridiculous raid wraps to bring em more in line with other endgame gear). Btw I quite likely agree with your main opinions, about wanting diversity etc - we just seem to view the current situation quite differently

[valkrei]

I appreciate the effort for balance, I really do.
BUT, massively nerfing monk DPS while not addressing their low melee defense in reaper vs other classes is just mean.

Glass cannon? Nah, you're glass slingshot now.

He said they are still top DPS, don't be so dramatic.

[balvix]

They better not nerf DISNEY!!!!

Rofl

[valkrei]

Technically, Devastating Critical does exist in DDO. It's in Legendary Dreadnaught and adds an addition +1 to your crit multiplier on a 19-20.

I am sorry but how do you figure those are even remotely the same thing?

[Dalsheel]

Our tests were specifically done in a way where we could get a baseline for where the builds themselves sit, without specific gear altering that data.

So you're nerfing Duality without even testing it?

[Donny_b]

1. If the problem is underpowered quarterstaff builds, how will lessening the henshin tree melee power solve this? You will simply be digging them deeper into a grave. Make the difference of 10 to 3 (3 mp across all monk weapons, 10 mp exclusive to quarterstaves)

2. STOP PUTTING IMPROVED CRITICAL ENHANCEMENTS ON ENDGAME GEAR, ESPECIALLY RAID TIER. The free wraps you get are actually not very far behind in dps compared to duailty. It is incredibly dubious, knowing full well EVERYONE takes the feat.

3. GMOF dc is incredibly gimp. Please add at least 2/3 tactics bonus to the DC. I mean, even with 70 wisdom (EXTREMELY hard to achieve without pulling excessively from elsewhere) leaves a 70dc on GMOF moves. That barely touches epic elite mobs anywhere, let alone the new legendary dungeons.

[Kaboom2112]

3. GMOF dc is incredibly gimp. Please add at least 2/3 tactics bonus to the DC. I mean, even with 70 wisdom (EXTREMELY hard to achieve without pulling excessively from elsewhere) leaves a 70dc on GMOF moves. That barely touches epic elite mobs anywhere, let alone the new legendary dungeons.

Many ED DCs are gimp, Energy Burst and Dragon breath are pathetic as well.