U38 Balance Changes

[Saekee]

Fully writing out our exact methods is a rabbit hole we're not planning to dive down here. It'd be super long, and doubtlessly discounted as flawed. <snip> (We know it's flawed; our build ecosystem combined with our item ecosystem is so complex, a purely flawless system that accounted for every variable possible would be... massive.) We aimed for a bould either end up with a strong example of what our data isn't accounting for, or a really decent Live character. Potentially both. Either way, I'm confident enough in this to play one.

Did you try a PSWF Void Strike Henshin? Effective in mid epics so after an ER respec.

Monks are best as shintaos in heroics no matter what changes come due to the diversity of mob types and the simplicity of wraps—rust monsters, oozes, slimes, skellies—and the faster attack speed of wraps. Maybe use staves in epics once the better crit profiles can be used which for pure monks anyway will not happen until level 12+ with IC: bludgeon.

It is a similar issue with assassins—you are not an assassin until level 12 and the weapons of choice are lousy until knife spec. So an assassin can use the low hanging TA staff speed boost and use staves until 12. Henshin lacks this early boost but can use wraps.

[PermaBanned]

So, you didn't realise that the Vistani knife fighter tree was going to be focused around...knives?

Can't blame them, really. How long could Arcane Archer work for crossbows & throwers? How long did Adrenaline specify Melee but work for ranged before they just called it WAI?

[Seikojin]

Some deep mechanical changes. I hope there is an extra week of lamannia build time to get hundreds of person-hours on each night and get some dps tests. Hopefully all my characters can copy over this time so I have the gear and build available there instead of having to build it up. Takes a good solid 8 hours to rebuild a multi tr character on lamannia. And that is just eating hearts, using resets, and levelling at the guide.

[MaeveTuohy]

I'm to late to the party here and have only read the first post, but...

... are you sure about this? A quick bit of arithmetic tells me that my Monk will gain 15MP from the changes. Also, RL handwraps are not my main weapon of choice, since, despite their reported base ratings, they don't come close to what I normally use.

Which handwraps do you use?

[Grace_ana]

I appreciate your taking the time to respond, so nothing I say here should be taken as unappreciative or bashing. I just don't think we are on the same page and would like to get to the same page. Anything that sounds snarky or whatever should be attributed to simple text reading.

Fully writing out our exact methods is a rabbit hole we're not planning to dive down here. It'd be super long, and doubtlessly discounted as flawed. (We know it's flawed; our build ecosystem combined with our item ecosystem is so complex, a purely flawless system that accounted for every variable possible would be... massive.) We aimed for a baseline on as even a footing as we could get, to tell us what the builds were capable of. Other factors (like personal defenses, enemy defenses, fortification, etc) were accounted for in weighing the impact of these changes, even if their impact on the actual test was intentionally diminished.

I understand perfectly not wanting to get into every little detail of the testing, but I think some information would go a long ways towards two things: helping players understand the disparity between what you are seeing and what we are seeing, and helping devs understand (through player comments) their concerns. Testing under controlled conditions will certainly get you data, but depending on the tests it frankly might not be as useful as you think.

I could be wrong, but what I gleaned from what you said is that it is not an actual combat scenario, and that you accounted for other factors in some hand-wavy external way. Again, I understand why you would want to isolate certain data, but then it would take a lot more testing to, say, compare it in combat, make some internal changes, test in combat again, etc. You can't say something is based on hard data when only some of it on based on data and the rest is based on assumptions and estimations. As an example, we ran Baba last night. We had two very well-specced monks in our group doing a lot of DPS. They also had to be rezzed several times because they can't do much against things like Niac's. Other toons did less DPS while all were alive, but overall may have done more because they stayed alive. One was shintao and one was henshin - one of three henshins I know at end game.

For the sake of sanity-testing what I'm claiming, I took some time today to scrap together a pretty basic Henshin Mystic character internally (where the changes here are already complete). 32 point build Human Monk. Zero past lives, zero consumeables, zero tomes, named (but probably sub-optimal) gear layout. Cakewalked through Elite content at-level, held up well in low Reapers solo until a particularly nasty Champion got in my way. Soloing on Heroic was a bit tougher than Epic due to lack of immediately-available healing, but there are plenty of avenues around that for a character that wasn't cooked up in 20 minutes.

Everyone can cakewalk through elite heroic. That's not a test, really. I can cakewalk on heroic through elite content on my shuriken build, and everyone knows low-level (before the good stuff) shuri is not fun to level. I can do the same on a shiradi build. I don't even really ever gear other than what I pick up along the way until a lvl 10 set of CC gear, and that's because I run reaper, not elite. Before reaper I didn't even bother with the crafted gear.

I'm not an elite best-of-the-best player. My point is that rolling something up and playing it in heroics with no one in a group to compare it to is not a very good test at all. There was no scaling, either.

Henshin Mystic is, almost certianly, not the best THF build in practice. There are a lot of factors that could easily be pushing other builds ahead. It lacks specific bonuses to Glancing Blows, it doesn't have the overweighted Critical profiles that weapons in other builds have. It is possible to build a really terrible Henshin Mystic build. But built well, they are not nearly as bad off as a lot of posts here make them sound. It will still be possible to build a very viable Henshin Mystic after these changes. As I've said a few times in this thread, we're hoping to do a closer examination of THF after U38. A re-examination of Henshin Mystic would be a part of that. If we've truly missed the mark here, it'll be a good chance to address that. But anecdotal evidence isn't outweighing what we're observing here, which is that even post-changes, Henshin Mystics are going to be fine.

Nearly anything can be "viable." All that means is that they can push their way through heroics and eventually cap. That doesn't make them good or even one of the best builds (#7 by your OP). I think this is where we are really having a disconnect - we don't know what your goals or standards are, and they don't seem to be the same as the players', so we are trying to figure it out. And it's not for any nefarious "save my build" reasons, because frankly hardly anyone plays a henshin. It's because we are getting a bit tired of the seesaw, and I would imagine you guys would be too since it takes dev time to rebalance constantly. We would rather nail it down before it hits live.

All that said: I'm going to go LR one of my Live characters into a Henshin Mystic now. I should either end up with a strong example of what our data isn't accounting for, or a really decent Live character. Potentially both. Either way, I'm confident enough in this to play one.

I think you should TR it instead. I think you should join some of our groups that play low reaper in heroics and elite/low reaper while leveling. And I think you should play it all the way up to get a good idea of what it is comparatively before it changes on live. The changes to MP will make henshin leveling way too painful, and it will cripple them later as well.

[Synthetic]

Did you try a PSWF Void Strike Henshin? Effective in mid epics so after an ER respec.

Monks are best as shintaos in heroics no matter what changes come due to the diversity of mob types and the simplicity of wraps—rust monsters, oozes, slimes, skellies—and the faster attack speed of wraps. Maybe use staves in epics once the better crit profiles can be used which for pure monks anyway will not happen until level 12+ with IC: bludgeon.

.

I think the crit profiles are the same between a staff and wraps now. Since wraps are weapons now, they gain the same benefits from LD pulverizer as staves, and standard wraps/staves are 20/x2. So, in their generic testing they should end up with the same crit profile if you include enhancements the base +1 bonuses to range and multiplier are the same. Wraps gain extra chance from violence begets violence, and staves get extra multiplier while standing in cauldron, which would appear to benefit wraps more then staves. Wraps also gain extra bonuses - faster attack speed, off hand strikes with full stat, weird WW benefits, extra dice from monk levels, and over all better dps benefits from the supporting enhancement tree, which also has CC, and defensive benefits. Staves get more damage from PA and 1.5 stat bonus, and some extra strikes for modest benefits, which puts them behind wraps in all but low levels when PA damage bonus can be a big benefit.

[unbongwah]

I think the crit profiles are the same between a staff and wraps now.

I don't know what's the best named staff these days, but remember there's a few with expanded crit profiles. E.g., Henshin using Bone Crusher should be 13-18/x4 19-20/x6 with all relevant bonuses in LD; 19-20/x7 if in Fire stance. Whereas Duality is 16-18/x3 19-20/x5 if I'm adding right (excluding Violence Begets Violence). So you can definitely have a staff with a better crit threat range than handwraps, though obviously I don't expect that to make up for all the other DPS advantages of handwraps. Otherwise SSG wouldn't be trying to nerf Shintao builds so hard by nuking Henshin.

[Sorcerio]

Is anything going to be done to address the first 1-2 hits not landing for handwraps? I thought that might be fixed when the movement/hitbox adjustment was made, but still the first punch or two in a sequence are whiffs without even making an attack roll.

[Vish]

All that said: I'm going to go LR one of my Live characters into a Henshin Mystic now. I should either end up with a strong example of what our data isn't accounting for, or a really decent Live character. Potentially both. Either way, I'm confident enough in this to play one.

Steel,
Check out my theory crafting the celestial monk,
In monk forum
First half is henshin monk with barovian staff,
Second half is duality Shintao
It has numbers for heroic and epic completionist build
What I run

And on henshin vs Shintao dps
The question lies in the w
6.5 vs 16.5
So Shintao is so far ahead it's in orbit
Even with a 1d6+6 vs 1d6+3,
The x3 w difference is all she wrote
Good luck fixing that
They would have to nerf monk adds to zero in the cores

[PermaBanned]

I don't know what's the best named staff these days, but remember there's a few with expanded crit profiles. E.g., Henshin using Bone Crusher should be 13-18/x4 19-20/x6 with all relevant bonuses in LD; 19-20/x7 if in Fire stance. Whereas Duality is 16-18/x3 19-20/x5 if I'm adding right (excluding Violence Begets Violence). So you can definitely have a staff with a better crit threat range than handwraps, though obviously I don't expect that to make up for all the other DPS advantages of handwraps. Otherwise SSG wouldn't be trying to nerf Shintao builds so hard by nuking Henshin.

But which Crit profile do you think the Devs' baseline tests are using? The basic 20/x2 w/maybe the relevant static Henshin & Shinto bonuses, or what your describing? Edit: Keeping in mind the baselines don't use gear

[Kodwraith]

3) These builds do do reapers. I regularly carry pugs through r6.

Being one of the people Poppy's led through a PUG r6 (and I have a lot of fun doing it, thanks for leading), the fact my monk can keep up with him at all when using Duality is a pretty good indication it needs nerfing.

For perspective, all I do is play unarmed monk and AA. After I lucked into a duality it was so completely obvious it needed adjustment I'm surprised it took this long. The damage increase is insane. I kill the dummy in one hit.

For the MP adjustment in the tree, you mainly need a bit LESS, and it needs to be higher. It's an interesting challenge.

One wya to look at his is to look at the decision of a level 20 unarmed monk for AP allocation. Henshin is a bit of an odd duck in that there's nothing in there for a wrap monk EXCEPT the melee power. So if that's gone/attentuated, what's the alternative.

IMHO, leaving the 18/20 cores with large amounts of MP for non-staff builds would make an actual tradeoff choice between NS and Henshin as a secondary tree for wrap monks.

Example: The required basic AP setup for wrap monks is 42 Shintao, 11 Ninja. No wrap monk runs anythign less than this. If you put 8 into Harper for dmg/DCs, that leaves 19 unallocated.

19 into Henshin would not give core 4, whereas putting 19 into NS would give core 4 but not 5 without pulling 1 point off harper. But why on earth would you now put 19 into henshin for 9 MP?

I'd strongly argue that leaving at least a lot of MP in core 5 of HM would at least mean that a 31 point investment into Henshin would at least do something useful. Otherwise, the ONLY rational allocation of AP for an unarmed monk is 42Shintao/8Harper/30 Ninja or 42/7/31. There would be literally no other rational allocation on a pure wrap monk.

[Qhualor]

Is anything going to be done to address the first 1-2 hits not landing for handwraps? I thought that might be fixed when the movement/hitbox adjustment was made, but still the first punch or two in a sequence are whiffs without even making an attack roll.

I have this same problem on my 2WF Tempest ranger. It's not all the time, but I would guess maybe half the time. I assumed it was bugged attack rolls. I see it a lot too when attacking breakables.

[guzzlr]

Will we be getting a way to spec monks out of our builds when the change hits? Not saying there isn't benefit to having a level of monk at times, but I would have choosen a different class without the MP gravy.

Also, don't nerf staff builds... nerf the MP for other weapons if necessary, but not the staff.

Thanks.

[chrysahor]

I'd strongly argue that leaving at least a lot of MP in core 5 of HM would at least mean that a 31 point investment into Henshin would at least do something useful. Otherwise, the ONLY rational allocation of AP for an unarmed monk is 42Shintao/8Harper/30 Ninja or 42/7/31. There would be literally no other rational allocation on a pure wrap monk.

or grab vistani action boost, deflect arrows, quick draw and +5 doublestrike on main and offhand. You can also invest more heavily into racial.

[TakerOfSouls]

As a melee player this enrages me to my core.

Instead of adressing the MASSIVE disparity in endgame performance between the average ranged build and the average melee build, you instead decide to nerf the only build that competes with a furythrower, IN ADDITION to killing the Blitzing melee power thrower which at least added some build diversity.

If these changed go through, there will be LITERALLY no reason to play melee in anything above reaper 2. Melees are now once again outdpsed, AND have lower survivability than a thrower, because you actually have to put yourself at risk to kill stuff by going close to the enemy. Throwers get more HP, have almost the same dodge, and basically the same PRR as a monk melee ALREADY, while having far greater burst dps, and only slightly less single target, non bursting dps.

Instead of adressing the dominance of ranged builds which has been going on for years and years, you target a build that has been on top for exactly 3 months, while some verison of a bursting furyshotter has reigned king for SIX WHOLE YEARS.

With this change all you do is make furythrowers the only dps build you should even consider bringing to a R2< raid. Why bother doing the same, of worse dps than a ranged build when you're taking a far greater risk to actually dish out damage.

What you should have done is make monks the new standard, and bring the other melee classes up to where they hold their own. At that point there would actually be a point to melees. With these changes, we once again have no purpose, and are simply outclassed in the highest difficulty. We all get oneshot in R4+ raids anyways, may as well put 200000000000000000000000 miles between me and the mob so they don't even get the chance to one shot us am I right?

I knew this would happen, simply because I can always assume you will do the exact opposite of what is good for game balance. Turns I was right AGAIN.

This change is trash, it does nothing to fix the real problem - the power imbalance between ranged and melee.

[ccd1977]

So, let me understand this. I currently am running a level 6 monk. I dont have any special Ravenloft hand wraps or any greensteel. I am enjoying OK dps with a pure wise based monk. If I am correct, I am getting a massive hit to pretty much make this a gimp build.

thanks for the update and balance BUT I will not play a gimped build that I have invest hours in. I want a 20+ heart to reroll and get out of this build. Its not a **** build either so this is a problem.

Monk used to be gimped over 2 years ago. I stopped playing a monk because of that. Then the monk gets a much needed update and its now fun again. Then another gimp pass is made and I am stuck with this? Naw.

[Xipify]

They have done research. 40 different melee builds would seem adequate. You cannot continually raise the caliber of other classes to achieve balance most especially with this extreme. 30% is significant. When they are closer together, to fine tune, you might actually raise some classes but I can't see 30%.

If VKF is throwing all other weapons, except throwing dagger and knife, out of balance then just dump the thing. Wasting space on an entire tree that affects 2 weapons in the game seems a little ludicrous. Meh

[Warrax23]

So, let me understand this. I currently am running a level 6 monk. I dont have any special Ravenloft hand wraps or any greensteel. I am enjoying OK dps with a pure wise based monk. If I am correct, I am getting a massive hit to pretty much make this a gimp build.

thanks for the update and balance BUT I will not play a gimped build that I have invest hours in. I want a 20+ heart to reroll and get out of this build. Its not a **** build either so this is a problem.

Monk used to be gimped over 2 years ago. I stopped playing a monk because of that. Then the monk gets a much needed update and its now fun again. Then another gimp pass is made and I am stuck with this? Naw.

Fun doesn't make money, constant nerfs and forcing people to buy hearts and tr does. :P It happens to me everytime I come back to this game, sadly this time I spent a lot more money than I should have playing catchup. It's ok Paypal likes to side with it's customers.

[Tilomere]

30% is significant.

30% is nothing. Utility is worth more than 30%.
Tilo outkills most new players 20:1 on any class, or 2000%, and decently geared alts 10:1, or 1000%. That's significant.
-------------------

The real test of a build isn't a dummy that doesn't fight back. It's soloing reaper, since high performance is required by those of us who solo/pug reaper and equivalently solo it with pugs players that don't always contribute as much as they scale the dungeon.

For example, a barb is fine against a dummy, and more than 30% above a paladin due to supreme cleave, but the lack of AoE CC, instant kills, defense, and self-healing makes it not that great to level or lead groups with in heroic reaper. A paladin by contrast, is godly.

[Symbiont]

If these changed go through, there will be LITERALLY no reason to play melee in anything above reaper 2. Melees are now once again outdpsed, AND have lower survivability than a thrower, because you actually have to put yourself at risk to kill stuff by going close to the enemy. Throwers get more HP, have almost the same dodge, and basically the same PRR as a monk melee ALREADY, while having far greater burst dps, and only slightly less single target, non bursting dps.

Almost all of this is blatantly incorrect. Nearly every sufficiently optimized melee will eclipse all ranged builds in terms of dps; especially more so after the change to Weapon Versatility. Every melee optimized to this caliber will also have defense far superior to their ranged counterparts: when you specialize your character to perform in the conditions of reaper, you adopt a defense that can nullify as well as completely mitigate incoming damage to an extent that ranged could not hope to perform to; PRR/dodge/HP are far more abundant in melee enhancement trees, and as a class that can utilize a plethora of CC abilities with a fluidity of attacks in the midst of the fight, you control the tide of combat far more effectively than a ranged player. The multitude of aspects that amplify damage in a melee synergizes with debilitating attacks; action boosts increment helpless damage to an exponential level, and every melee has the ability to bring mobs to a helpless state more reliably than ranged - as well as most melee trees increasing overall helpless amplification: No Mercy (Thief Acrobat, Ninja Spy), Brutality (Half Orc), Bully (Ravager). On top of this, Prowess, now being almost entirely melee-exclusive, gives 100 Melee Power upon action-boost usage; this is 80 more than Deadly Rain, and this difference alone is greater than the majority of total ranged power sources throughout the enhancement trees of a ranged character.

With this change all you do is make furythrowers the only dps build you should even consider bringing to a R2< raid. Why bother doing the same, of worse dps than a ranged build when you're taking a far greater risk to actually dish out damage.

Let's take a look at the damage profile of bourgeois furyshotters:

14 Monk 6 Ranger

Longbow: [1d8] 20 x3
AA: [1d8] 20 x4
IC: Ranged: [1d8] 19-20 x4
Overwhelming Critical + Ultimate Sun Stance: [1d8] 19-20 x6
= 12 Critical Units

or

Shuriken: [1d2] 20 x2
IC: Thrown: [1d2] 19-20 x2
Overwhelming Critical + Ultimate Sun Stance: [1d2] 19-20 x4
= 8 Critical Units

While these builds focus on maximum possible burst damage that offsets the lack of critical threat and synergizes extremely well with the vast multiplier (longbow in particular), the stable damage outside of bursting dramatically falters outside of the multitude of abilities meant to amplify damage to the levels of burst they currently output. You are not bursting 100% of the time; outside of Unbridled Fury, and after your Adrenaline charges are either depleted or being reserved for the end-fight, your damage, with a bow's attack rate, is far less than any melee. Shuriken sustain a higher passive damage due to consistent projectiles/second, but lose Manyshot and critical profile compared to a longbow. These profiles, compared to any melee, pale in comparison:

8 Fighter 6 Monk 6 Cleric PDK Silvanus

Maul: [1d10] 20 x3
Kensei: [1d10] 19-20 x4
Silvanus: [1d10] 17-20 x4
Pulverizer: [1d10] 16-20 x4
IC: Bludgeoning: [1d10] 15-20 x4
Overwhelming Critical + Devestating Critical + Ultimate Sun Stance: [1d10] 15-20 x4 (+3 19-20)
= 24 Critical Units

Melee swing far faster, hit far harder, and sustain consistent damage far better than their ranged counterparts. The colossal amount of melee power synergized in tandem with a much faster attack rate and doublestrike value relays base damage far more effectively, and exquisitely increases overall damage through superior critical profile. This, with helpless scaling and CC-intensive abilities, make melee extremely effective front-line characters. The critical profile surplus is shared by almost every melee role. Centered khopesh-wielders sustain 16-20 x4 (+3 19-20), and almost every melee role hovers around 18+ Critical Units, while others can sustain a damage profile higher than even the showcased silvanus, with potential temporary buffs to increase threat/multiplier for situations in burst.

What you should have done is make monks the new standard, and bring the other melee classes up to where they hold their own. At that point there would actually be a point to melees. With these changes, we once again have no purpose, and are simply outclassed in the highest difficulty. We all get oneshot in R4+ raids anyways, may as well put 200000000000000000000000 miles between me and the mob so they don't even get the chance to one shot us am I right?

I half agree with this. Downscaling duality first and then bringing barbarians/paladins forward (at an endgame perspective) to make higher-end content more diverse amongst melees is, in my opinion, a good idea. However, "we all" don't get one-shot in R4 raids. Contrary to the point you've expressed above regarding the difference of PRR and defense between melee and ranged to be negligible; there's a far more cataclysmic gap in defense than most anticipate. Most ranged get one-shot in difficulties of that caliber due to this lapse in defense, while melee, incorporating more dodge percentage (stable 47% or higher) and overall PRR (200+ in reaper), with more effective health due to hit die and miscellaneous factors, accumulate enough of a defensive surplus to live through mob hits. You don't need to distance yourself from mobs to prevent them from hitting you. Utilize your Dire Charge, Stunning Blow, etc. Some mobs can't be stunned, but most of those mobs can be tripped. Adapt your abilities and attack sequence to the mobs you are fighting. A dedicated CC'er can do this for you, leaving you free to deal your damage without the fear of getting attacked by stray mobs. In terms of boss DPS, a tank or a well-geared hate-gen melee (you could fill this role) can pull this boss, receive attention from the healer, and power through the fight. Even despite all of this, do not forget what SteelStar indicated:

This is in part to evaluate where builds are when on an even footing, to find outliers (both high and low), evaluate why they're outliers, and bring those in as necessary. This, in turn allows us to better balance groups - We can better make overall Melee buffs if we don't have 1-2 builds doing triple the damage of the other 98% of Melee builds.

If a few steps backward are needed to bring everything forward, then by every indication, this is not the last of the changes we will see, nor is this the Armageddon of all melee; this is actually a landslide in the right direction. On top of this, the changes listed in the OP aren't necessarily set in stone (pun intended) to hit live. My guess, and personal suggestion, is that the MP from Henshin Mystic will probably be moved towards later cores and decreased slightly (probably like 0/5/10/10/20/25), rather than having the entire array of core enhancements slashed. I personally look forward to seeing these changes progress.