U38 Balance Changes

[grandeibra]

Here some suggestion to end most of OP builds and bring some more balance to the game:

Make master blitz work and unbridled fury only with melee or have a lessened effect when not in melee. Before start crying like a baby because I said that take a look at other ED and see that a lot of tier 6 is bound to some fighting style that renders it useless or impossible to use if you are not in the right class and fighting style.

Make manyshot a ranger only feat at lvl 9. Just like endless fusilade is for Artificer and 10k star is for monk, manyshot should be for rangers.

...........


I have never used a build that takes advantage of those OP possibilities I always distanced myself from it, as a matter of fact I have never run a multiclass toon cause I am against it.

Imo you're missing (choosing to miss) one of the most fun, most key, most awesome parts of D&D and DDO: diversity, endless options, finding synergy, making both fun flavor builds and unique builds that are good or even great. That is not exploiting (in the negative connotation of the word) - it is using the system for what it is made to be used for!

Granted in some cases I believe the capstone is too weak (pure toons should be viable too) but pigeon-holing what various EDs should be makes the game less fun due to less interesting options. So a big ole NO! on all your suggestions. Don't limit options, just tweak em so truly OP stuff is brought down a tad.


And btw ranger is not equal to ranged. The are not. The word ranger does not have anything directly to do with ranged combat. A ranger has to do with being out on the range, being a tracker, outdoorsman in general in DnD lore. I believe 90%+ of all people misunderstand or misconstrue the words to be the same (maybe partly also due to DDO choosing the arrow symbol for ranger class). So limiting manyshot to ONLY the ranger class is beyond silly imo. There is NOTHING that says a ranger should be more of an expert at using bows than a fighter (the master of arms incl bows) or several other classes, or elves who are experts at bows among other things. Rangers get both twf and ranged feats for a reason.

Official first sentence of what the ranger is from wizards of the coast:

Though a ranger might make a living as a hunter, a guide, or a tracker, a ranger’s true calling is to defend the outskirts of civilization from the ravages of monsters and humanoid hordes that press in from the wild.

[Lanadazia]

No. You have to have a monk level to get to the stance feats. You can take them as feat choices at the appropriate character levels, after taking monk, at that point. That's WAI.

thats exactly my point. it just requires character level, not monk level. other stuff requires you to be x level of a specific class to be a ble to take it, not so for these powerful monk stances. they have to be the most powerful heroic feat available, and it doesn't really require your build to be based on monk, just a 2 level splash for evasion will do. thats cheesy.
its not a good choice to leave it like that fluff-wise nor game-design-wise.
these skill should be acquired through training - reflected in a higher monk level needed to take them.

if some of the core strenghts of a class can be taken, by just taking 2 levels and then abandon that class.. srsly, thats silly.
it won't work for any other class. i cannot cast grade 6 arcane spells for taking 2 levels of wizard. i cannot get deep into the fighter specialization trees without the proper fighter levels.
you get my point? only monk stances are an exception for no reason at all.
if this was a gimmick'y feat - so what. but builds are based around these greater stances, because they're so good.
its getting abused.

[grandeibra]

thats exactly my point. it just requires character level, not monk level. other stuff requires you to be x level of a specific class to be a ble to take it, not so for these powerful monk stances. they have to be the most powerful heroic feat available, and it doesn't really require your build to be based on monk, just a 2 level splash for evasion will do. thats cheesy.
its not a good choice to leave it like that fluff-wise nor game-design-wise.
these skill should be acquired through training - reflected in a higher monk level needed to take them.

if some of the core strenghts of a class can be taken, by just taking 2 levels and then abandon that class.. srsly, thats silly.
it won't work for any other class. i cannot cast grade 6 arcane spells for taking 2 levels of wizard. i cannot get deep into the fighter specialization trees without the proper fighter levels.
you get my point? only monk stances are an exception for no reason at all.
if this was a gimmick'y feat - so what. but builds are based around these greater stances, because they're so good.
its getting abused.

GMoF takes 3 feats to get to on a Monk2 splash. I have that on one toon and I like it. BUT it's nowhere near the most powerful heroic feat available. There are many other 3-feat combos that generate far more dps AND don't require you to be in the max50MRR robe.

Comparing to casting grade 6 arcane spells is, to use your words, silly. There's a gazillion core monk stuff, including wrap dps, instakills and various defenses, that you miss out on if you take just 2 levels. It's a tradeoff. Just like 2 lvls of pally, just like 2 levels of rogue, 6 lvls of fighter etc. Charm of the game. IF, like for a while, a too large portion of toons runs around with one specific splash (like the devs claimed with the pally 2 when not capped for max saves benefit from cha) then sure adjustments may be relevant. I don't see that situation at all when it comes to Monk2. Do you?

[Darius1680]

I would be 100% totally sold on any and all changes you want to make if eldritch cone/wave shape get nerfed spell power coefficients in heroics.

Right now a warlock in upper heroics is equal to any 2 melee characters, monks included.

Monks do so much more damage than warlocks it's like warlocks aren't doing any damage at all.

[Rykka]

Hey, SteelStar here. I'm here today to talk about a few upcoming changes you'll see in Update 38's first Lamannia, currently targeted for next week.


We've put quite a bit of time lately into gathering DPS data. This is in part to evaluate where builds are when on an even footing, to find outliers (both high and low), evaluate why they're outliers, and bring those in as necessary. This, in turn allows us to better balance groups - We can better make overall Melee buffs if we don't have 1-2 builds doing triple the damage of the other 98% of Melee builds. We'll talk a little about our tests, then outline the changes coming.


Testing an extensive number of builds (over 40) in terms of DPS: A pure 20 Monk, using Handwraps, with most of its points in Shintao and the rest in Henshin, did significantly, unquestionably more damage than any other build we tested. It was not close. More than 30% above anyone else. Far below that, the #2 build had most of its levels in Monk, the #3 was another pure Monk, and #4 had a significant number of Monk levels as well. The #7 build in terms of raw DPS was 20 Monk Henshin Mystic using a Quarterstaff. No Monk builds we tried ranked below that.


In addition, the process of this balance check helped us identify a bug where characters who were Two Weapon Fighting (as well as those using Handwraps) were receiving Doublestrikes, Offhand Attacks, and Offhand Doublestrikes at a far lower rate than intended while moving. We've now fixed that internally. For comparison, most fighting styles deal similar damage numbers while moving vs. standing still; TWF on Live deals about 40% less damage while moving because of this bug. With Update 38, Two Weapon Fighting damage will be roughly the same when standing or moving, as it is for other styles.


Based on the above, we're confident that an adjustment is needed. We understand that Melees are not in the strongest place in the top-end meta right now; we aren't trying to kick Melee when it's down. Rather, we're trying to bring the Melee outliers in, so we can better balance Melee as a group. Consider this some first steps that will allow us to better make other ones down the road (such as improving Melee Defense).

Handwraps
You've likely seen some threads by now about Duality, the Raid Handwraps from Ravenloft. We'd initially given Ravenloft handwraps damage dice akin to two-handed weapons in the pack. We'd had some reasons for it at the time, but we missed the mark on this one (especially with Handwraps benefitting disproportionately well from the increases in internal damage dice) . We're planning on dropping their dice from [1d6+6] to [1d6+3]. (In addition, the Legendary Morninglord and Nightmother handwraps will drop from [1d6+4] to [1d6+2].) Duality will still be the strongest handwraps, and likely stronger than most other weapons out there - But not by as much.


Henshin Mystic
Second, Henshin Mystic currently gets 75 Melee Power in its tree. This is a lot more than other trees get, and it's pretty evenly distributed through its cores. We're of the opinion that this makes both Pure Monks and Monk splashes disproportionately strong (especially given the other benefits of being a Monk), and are planning to alter it from (10/10/10/10/10/25) to (3/3/3/3/3/15). The net effect on Henshin Mystic builds is that their DPS falls in line with most other Two Handed Fighting builds. (We're hoping to do a little further analysis of Two Handed Fighting in general after U38.)


Vistani Weapon Versatility
During our DPS testing we took a look at how this ability impacts builds. We've come to the conclusion that, ultimately, this ability is detrimental to game balance and our ability to make adjustments differently among Melee and Ranged builds. We're planning to make it apply only to Daggers and Throwing Daggers, as it was in our earliest drafts of that ability.

Epic Destiny Boosts
With the above changes, we're planning on making the following changes to Epic Destiny Cores. This is not meant to solve the inherent issues in a lot of these Destinies; only to make them slightly more appealing, and to introduce a minor Melee buff into Epic.

• Fatesinger :
  
  • Current: +4 MP per core
  • New: +10 MP per core
  
  
• Grandmaster of Flowers :
  
  • Current: +4 MP per core
  • New: +10 MP per core
  
  
• Legendary Dreadnought :
  
  • Current: +3 MP per core
  • New: Unchanged . Another spike in our DPS testing showed that, with few exceptions, most Melee builds are best served by being in Legendary Dreadnought. It does not need the help; it should remain competitive, even with these changes.
  
  
• Shadowdancer :
  
  • Current: +4 MP per core
  • New: +10 MP per core
  
  
• Fury of the Wild :
  
  • Current: +3 MP per core
  • New: +6 MP per core
  
  
• Primal Avatar :
  
  • Current: +4 MP per core
  • New: +10 MP per core . Bear in mind that this is targeted for the same release as the Druid pass, where Tree Form glitching is planned to be fixed.
  
  
• Divine Crusader :
  
  • Current: +2 MP per core
  • New: +3 MP per core
  
  
• Unyielding Sentinel :
  
  • Current: +4 MP per core
  • New: +5 MP per core

---
As said above, these changes are a step. They aren't meant to address issues with Melee Defenses, Ranged/Magic DPS (short of the Vistani change), or anything beyond trying to make a more balanced Melee ecosystem. We have the above changes completed internally, and have been running comparison tests. The essential impact so far seems to be:

• Standing Handwrap Monk DPS falls fairly dramatically, but they're still in the top end of Single-Target Melee DPS. Just not by as much - they're a LOT closer to other builds.
• Conversely, Moving Handwrap Monk DPS rises somewhat, as the bugfix to TWF outpaces the other DPS-reducing changes.
• Misc. Monk builds drop somewhat, depending on their level of previous investment into Henshin cores.
• Most TWF builds now deal about 40% more damage while moving due to the bugfix, but otherwise remain about where they are.
• Henshin Mystic's DPS falls fairly dramatically, to about where other Two Handed Fighting builds currently are. (Two Handed Fighting builds are, themselves, a little bit below most SWF/TWF builds in terms of Single Target DPS, but Glancing Blow damage should put them right in the mix with other builds in overall damage; as I said above, we're hoping to examine THF a little closer in the future.)
• Some Destinies are a little more competitive for Melees.

Yes more melee DPS through MP on something other than Legendary Dread looks good. At the very least, leveling through them won't completely suck.

Fixing your broken wolf and tree rules is overdue. Congrats on that.

I'm indifferent on throwers.
Vistani RP only working on thrown knives makes it a flavor thing. If you have an issue with thrown shuriken being way better than any other thrown weapons, either remove the feat Shuriken Expertise or make it work with ALL thrown weapons. But the vistani mp to rp is just a substitute for harper burst damage and doesn't fix anything if it is removed. my opinion anyways.

Regarding Henshin MP, it's OP on non-staff builds only. I'd move the full bonus to the Lvl 20 capstone for the sad sacks that want to beat on a dragon or demigod with a stick.

Monks that fist their enemies to death will still OP builds that use real weapons, 'cause 20w(1d6) is way better than 8.25(1d8). But it won't be as embarrassing to offer up a khopesh tempest for melee DPS instead of a dude that just punches stuff.

[Rog]

I have been playing mojo as a monk since i built him when the class came out/
i join a r5 or r8 party people think i am a worthless asset in the party rarely do i get invited to these parties being A monk but
when i do i hold my own.
that being said if you think raid wraps are over powered go ahead nerf them.
as for not being inline with other melee classes play those other class's in high level reaper and watch them get many deaths and no kills.
high level reaper melee sucks. and yet i still play my pure monk with hand wraps.
if you nerf are hand wraps you will bring monks inline with other melee classes.
never run high level reaper or get invited to high level reaper because melee sucks and all they bring is a party drain.
please do not nerf hand-wraps high level reaper is dam hard for melee classes we need every edge we got to get into warlock party's.
even if you do when i finish my rtr grind clean up my iconic's mojomuscle will still be a ultimate completest pure breed deep gnome monk.
high level reaper needs tanks to keep the party in balance
i am building mojomuscle to be that tank.
nerfing handwraps nerfs my high level reaper tank build the entire server thinks i am high on crack it can never be done.
only thing good in high level reaper is a warlock or a caster build melee is dead.
dam you for nerfing handwraps.
mojomuscle

[chrysahor]

if some of the core strenghts of a class can be taken, by just taking 2 levels and then abandon that class.. srsly, thats silly.
it won't work for any other class. i cannot cast grade 6 arcane spells for taking 2 levels of wizard. i cannot get deep into the fighter specialization trees without the proper fighter levels.
you get my point? only monk stances are an exception for no reason at all.

Actually I can take ONE level of a casting class and open access to all the metamagic feats associated with it with my regular feats even if I don't take another other spellcasting class later on, powering epic SLA that way.

With respect to PRR, monk PRR is simply not equivalent to melees in armor for most of their lives, even with a full stack of PRR-PLs (which the armored folks get to enjoy too), and Improved Combat Expertise. In those commonly-played difficulties where insufficient damage absorption = getting one-shotted (since no one can get 100% dodge, even from the ED abilities that claim to provide it!), it means more deaths so less DPS. And don't forget the significantly higher base HP of other melee classes and the bonus con and HP that using armor and/or a shield in a defensive stance (fighter, pally) can give. **My point here isn't that that should change, but that it's reasonable to offset that defensive weakness with more (single-target) offense.**

What does melee in armor mean?
Monks are versatiles, you can adapt to a lot of situation. Their role ain't to be an unarmed kensei (which if centered also cannot get armored PRR nor higher than 50MRR). Melee just mean close combat, having to be at weapon range to attack. If you mean martial then it also means rogue...yet the comparison has to be monk vs the best case, foregoing anything else monks have to offer compared to them.

The "other melee" classes don't have super PRR on top of super HP.
Pally and fighters are the heavy guys, rogues, rangers, fvs, bards will be squishier. Barbs can have high hp but that also comes with a price.

Leveling isn't different either. It's not like monk are running at 50prr all the way to 29 then magically get +150prr at cap.

from lvl 2 a shintao can take ironskin for 20 PRR

For HEAVY armor the formula is PRR=2*BAB

It means that before level 10 even a fighter or a pally cannot catch up to it. Assuming they don't use frozen tunic for leveling purpose until then.
For lower BAB or lighter armor, it takes even more time.

The difference might come from the defensive stances, giving 25PRR when active, starting at level 3 for 6AP.
At that point a monk can invest the same amount into HM for 6 extra PRR (and atm 20MP). Earth stance at that point offers a meager PRR, but:

fighter: 3*2+25=31
monk: 20+6+3= 29 (+4% dodge)

LVL6:
fighter: 6*2+25=37
Monk= 20+6+8=34 (+6% dodge)

LVL: 12
fighter: 12*2+25=49
Monk: 20+6+12+10(meditation of war)= 48 (+6% dodge)

LVL16:
fighter: 16*2+25=57
Monk: 20+6+15+10=51 (+6% dodge and probably shadow veil)

The difference in PRR is so marginal, it's largely outweight by all the other defensive tools a shintao has in his bag of tricks.

That's against the toughest, not the rogues, not the bards, not the rangers, not the barbarians.
Shintao is the tanky tree of monks, and as demonstrated if they want they can go toe to toe with the toughest on his own turf.

Ninja is the one sacrificing all defense and healing for extra offense and still lags behind.

So if PRR is so much of a concern, shintao can keep up during the leveling process. Most decide NOT to concern themselves because it's not that much of an issue (especially with PL), and they prefer to reap the benefits from an other stance.

Earth stance is the shintao heavy armor, you're free not to use it, but then you're making the same choice than a kensei running in robe or light armor to benefit from enhancements that won't work in heavier armor. Or the choice of running a ranger instead of a fighter.
Then you cannot compare light/heavy with the same criteria. Paladins don't even have that kind of option, same way monks don't have the option of using a shield.

I have been playing mojo as a monk since i built him when the class came out/
i join a r5 or r8 party people think i am a worthless asset in the party rarely do i get invited to these parties being A monk but
when i do i hold my own.
that being said if you think raid wraps are over powered go ahead nerf them.
as for not being inline with other melee classes play those other class's in high level reaper and watch them get many deaths and no kills.
high level reaper melee sucks. and yet i still play my pure monk with hand wraps.
if you nerf are hand wraps you will bring monks inline with other melee classes.
never run high level reaper or get invited to high level reaper because melee sucks and all they bring is a party drain.
please do not nerf hand-wraps high level reaper is dam hard for melee classes we need every edge we got to get into warlock party's.
even if you do when i finish my rtr grind clean up my iconic's mojomuscle will still be a ultimate completest pure breed deep gnome monk.
high level reaper needs tanks to keep the party in balance
i am building mojomuscle to be that tank.
nerfing handwraps nerfs my high level reaper tank build the entire server thinks i am high on crack it can never be done.
only thing good in high level reaper is a warlock or a caster build melee is dead.
dam you for nerfing handwraps.
mojomuscle

If you are calling r5/8 high reaper I've run both heroic and epic high reaper, at level, undermanned with melee only party with no death.
Do you see a lot of warlocks trying to dps their way out in r10? I don't think so.

If you want ppl to stop thinking you're useless and start inviting you, change tactics, use QP, EiN, whatever.

I'm not saying melee is perfectly fine, but monks certainly aren't at the worst position.

[Paisheng]

I have read this thread and monk is my chosen class for last 7 years. Here is my summary on this subject.

1. Monks have fluctuated over these last 7 years from being the low end of playability to the high end. After last year's monk pass they went back to the higher end but not significantly. It seemed a reasonable pass where most monks found themselves useful in solo and groups again.

2. Ravenloft wraps and gears made the monks very high end DPS (mostly attributed to wraps but good synergy with filagrees like Prowess Set). I think that was the point of Ravenloft Gear for all melees was to make "end game" abilities supreme for those who work for the gear, filagrees, etc. Success! But the Duality were just over-performing compared to other melees. Both arguments are valid -- bring the other melees up with better gear or reduce the Duality wraps -- only the Devs know what they have in mind for future game challenges and to where they want there melees at.

3. It seems most testing and analysis (and videos of supreme monk DPS) is at level 30 with such gear. Where are the heroic videos or epic levels videos below 29 demonstrating such incredible DPS?

4. Therefore it appears to me Monks are performing but not over-performing from levels 1-28. Monks are competitive. Monks are happy again. Groups with monks are happy again. So why change what is working by nerfing the Henshin tree? This seems to swing the pendulum back again to make most monks struggle to shine (there will always be great players, with maxed out abilities and personal skills, that will make any class including monks highly successful, but I think the majority of monks are not maxed out nor are in the 1-2% of upper echelon players).

5. Therefore it mainly appears to be a level 29-30 issue and more of a gear issue. That should be the address of any Monk nerfs and related to Duality primarily I would think. Why impact monk at the majority of their career in levels 1-28 by cutting the Henshin MP cores which seem to have been part of a long ago reasonably successful pass? We saw an uptick of monks with the Pass (to be expected) and that tapered off to show they are not the one and only must play class for success in melee. And we saw a large uptick with Ravenloft, probably because of the oversuccess of Duality wraps. Even that though seems to be tapering in the number of monks I see in endgame from a month or two ago.

Alas many of my fellow monks and I tremble at seeing this Henshin core nerf that we will be reduced again to a loaf of bread that sometimes is nice with your meal. I won't get into the philosophy of whether monks should be highest DPS because of their squishy parts, etc. at this time (I did that earlier a bit in this thread anyway). But from reading this and experience suggests to me that the real issue is in moderating monks at end game and that came about because of gear primarily and that is where any adjustments should fall.

Thanks for listening to this thread devs!

[Applefritter]

I suspect I may be missing something relatively obvious but few, if any, posts in the thread so far mention the proposed henshin changes' impact on a stck multiclass. Build diversity is a major draw this game has over other MMO's. The proposed alterations would severely limit the viability of an already niche build - a monk stick multiclass - if 18/20 monk levels are required to attain the current power on both base damage output and the SLAs dependent on melee power in that tree. Non-shuri ninja spys (melee) will likely be in pretty poor shape as well. Though it would not help a melee ninja spy, the earlier proposition by another poster of retaining the MP values but making them quaterstaff specific (with or without reduced values for non-staves) would be a simple solution. Am I missing something obvious?

[Sunnie]

Henshin Mystic
Second, Henshin Mystic currently gets 75 Melee Power in its tree. This is a lot more than other trees get, and it's pretty evenly distributed through its cores. We're of the opinion that this makes both Pure Monks and Monk splashes disproportionately strong (especially given the other benefits of being a Monk), and are planning to alter it from (10/10/10/10/10/25) to (3/3/3/3/3/15). The net effect on Henshin Mystic builds is that their DPS falls in line with most other Two Handed Fighting builds. (We're hoping to do a little further analysis of Two Handed Fighting in general after U38.)

The net effect of this will be to leave monk q-staff builds eating the dust of everyone else.
With a critical profile of 20x2, q-staves NEED that melee power boost in order to keep up. I'm lucky enough to have an elemental bloom which I used from level 7 pretty much up until level 30 when I played a monk in Henshin using q-staves. I used that weapon for the simple reason that it has the best critical profile of all named q-staves. My damage using EB was good, but nowhere near top-tier. Of course I couldn't use it all the time because q-staves are the flimsiest of weapons. Once I got past level 10 I had to start using staves with far worse critical profiles for the most time, saving my best staff for boss fights, which lead to my damage output plummeting from "good" to "barely ok".

How about instead of nerfing stickbuilds you change the Henshin cores so they only grant that melee power if the character is wielding a q-staff? Or maybe backload it a bit to something like 5/5/10/10/15/30? Removing 60% of the melee power from Henshin Mystic is like chopping off a leg to treat a broken toe. It is not a good solution.

We all know this is about handwraps anyway. Fine, if unarmed monks are "overperforming" go ahead and work on that, but don't throw q-staves under the bus again when they just became playable. Not even good, just "barely good enough that a heroic and epic completionist can run low-level heroic 1-3 skull reaper". I've reincarnated into a warlock since I played that monk with a stick, it's not as fun, but at least I can tell I'm regularly contributing to the group and was able to run at reaper 4-5 during heroics.

[TrucidaHead]

This

Henshin Mystic
Second, Henshin Mystic currently gets 75 Melee Power in its tree. This is a lot more than other trees get, and it's pretty evenly distributed through its cores. We're of the opinion that this makes both Pure Monks and Monk splashes disproportionately strong (especially given the other benefits of being a Monk), and are planning to alter it from (10/10/10/10/10/25) to (3/3/3/3/3/15). The net effect on Henshin Mystic builds is that their DPS falls in line with most other Two Handed Fighting builds. (We're hoping to do a little further analysis of Two Handed Fighting in general after U38.)

+

Personally I always thought the MP from Henshin should be - if not exclusively for staves, then at least increased for them. Like maybe they get double MP from Henshin cores while using staves?

(3/3/3/3/3/15) with all weapons resulting in a (6/6/6/6/6/30) if using staves. (From 75(all) to 60(staves)/30(all)).

The total melee power could be reduced a little to fit in the "balance" idea, but whereas "double melee power with staves only".

cheers.

[Michaelaz2]

How many players have left the game because monks are OP ? How many have left because of unresolved bugs , poor GMs,Poor customer service, no phone support ? Theres your answer what needs fixed , instead of paying a dev to nerf monks, have him answer a phone and give support to customers who pay.

[JP457]

How many players have left the game because monks are OP ? How many have left because of unresolved bugs , poor GMs,Poor customer service, no phone support ? Theres your answer what needs fixed , instead of paying a dev to nerf monks, have him answer a phone and give support to customers who pay.

^^^THIS^^^

So much truth in that.

[Powerhungry]

WRONG

1. I know everyone's build in end game on Khyber. None of these builds run.
2. Because you chose to read my post in a way it was not intended as written: there are no bow builds that are comparable to thrower or crossbow builds for doing what they should do: damage.

If you want to make flavor builds of healers or CC that occasionally pop off a little damage with a bow, be my guest. That has nothing to do with any of my posts in this thread. This is borderline trolling.

on Argo I run an adrenaline/manyshot ranger and I usually lead kill counts in every group I run with. I ran Slavers on r3 with a top tier guild and their throwers - I barely managed to ninja a few kills from them. Entire groups of mobs were wiped in seconds. The red named ogre optional was dead in seconds (didn't even have time to phase out).

[Kaboom2112]

How many players have left the game because monks are OP ? How many have left because of unresolved bugs , poor GMs,Poor customer service, no phone support ? Theres your answer what needs fixed , instead of paying a dev to nerf monks, have him answer a phone and give support to customers who pay.

And none will leave because of these nerfs.

More reason to nerf monks more.

[Sebastrd]

And none will leave because of these nerfs.

More reason to nerf monks more.

Wrong. I specifically left over nerfs to a class. The only reason I'm still hanging around now is guildees that have become close friends.

[Kaboom2112]

Wrong. I specifically left over nerfs to a class. The only reason I'm still hanging around now is guildees that have become close friends.

Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I am willing to make.

[Celender]

Imo you're missing (choosing to miss) one of the most fun, most key, most awesome parts of D&D and DDO: diversity, endless options, finding synergy, making both fun flavor builds and unique builds that are good or even great. That is not exploiting (in the negative connotation of the word) - it is using the system for what it is made to be used for!

Granted in some cases I believe the capstone is too weak (pure toons should be viable too) but pigeon-holing what various EDs should be makes the game less fun due to less interesting options. So a big ole NO! on all your suggestions. Don't limit options, just tweak em so truly OP stuff is brought down a tad.


And btw ranger is not equal to ranged. The are not. The word ranger does not have anything directly to do with ranged combat. A ranger has to do with being out on the range, being a tracker, outdoorsman in general in DnD lore. I believe 90%+ of all people misunderstand or misconstrue the words to be the same (maybe partly also due to DDO choosing the arrow symbol for ranger class). So limiting manyshot to ONLY the ranger class is beyond silly imo. There is NOTHING that says a ranger should be more of an expert at using bows than a fighter (the master of arms incl bows) or several other classes, or elves who are experts at bows among other things. Rangers get both twf and ranged feats for a reason.

Official first sentence of what the ranger is from wizards of the coast:

Repeating for the 1000th time: DnD ship has sailed, my friend.

People love to praise diversity, endless option in DDO and still all u see is 2-3 builds been played over and over again, during my druids life I lost count how many people had asked me: "Are you doing gyngerpsice build?" or " Are you a CC focus or bear?" (FYI I did pure AA Druid), or when playing ranger: "Are you using white feather sniper build? and I can go on and on. Just look how many wl we have and how many monk based build we have, is that the diversity you want?

DDO has 14 classes, 11 races, 6 iconic, 36 class enhancement tree,11 racial enhancement tree, 2 universal enhancement tree. Unlimited multiclassing capabilities, 12 epic destines tree. That is enough option to make each character in this game diferent from each other. Can anyone do the math and see how many different options we have?

Once all classes are balanced then we will have true diversity.

[CaptainPurge]

I would be 100% totally sold on any and all changes you want to make if eldritch cone/wave shape get nerfed spell power coefficients in heroics.

Right now a warlock in upper heroics is equal to any 2 melee characters, monks included.

That's upper heroics vs large mobs grouped up and especially older quests and weak HP critters. Single target cone still doesn't do much DPS you know that. What kind of a messy power curve do you want to bring here because it changes at low level and at 20.

It only took 16 pages to derail into nerf lock, lol.

[mr420247]

Well since all last year they hammered all the TS ES DPS

And es was so not even deserving the DPS nerfs the only tree they can nerf

Is SE or charms either or both