Teach SSG a lesson

[HungarianRhapsody]

As with the vast majority of conspiracy theories, this fails the 'why the hell would they do that!' test on the basis of simple risk, reward.

It did exactly what they would have hoped. A bunch of people who tend to exploit fell for it and got banned and now people are (mostly) afraid to exploit. Finally. For the first time ever in DDO.

I'm not arguing with the results. It did exactly what they wanted it to do. It was just a really shady way to go about doing it.

[lronEnema]

It did exactly what they would have hoped. A bunch of people who tend to exploit fell for it and got banned and now people are (mostly) afraid to exploit. Finally. For the first time ever in DDO.

I'm not arguing with the results. It did exactly what they wanted it to do. It was just a really shady way to go about doing it.

Except that enticing more people to use the exploit would mean they banned a larger number of paying customers, plus the risk of some future ex SSG employee plastering it all over gaming sites.

Nope - they could have just banned people who were already using it and publicised what they were doing heavily. Would have had the same effect.

No reward with some risk - like I say, it fails at the first hurdle.

[Chai]

I don't believe that SSG put out an exploit honeypot because someone on the "other site" said they did. I believe that SSG put out an exploit honeypot because it's blatantly obvious that they did based on the timing and the fact that exploits are *rarely* shared in public on the "other site" and people ask for PMs instead.

It's certainly *possible* that someone happened to post public step by step instructions on how to do the specific exploit that they just started tracking a week earlier. That's pretty implausible, though.

So a bunch of people, who are **usually** overly careful about sharing the information to the point where they **rarely** share it publicly, saw one "honey pot" post, and simply abandoned all caution, reacting to it by logging into the game and repeatedly exploited it accumulating multiple past lives.

Seems legit.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Except that enticing more people to use the exploit would mean they banned a larger number of paying customers, plus the risk of some future ex SSG employee plastering it all over gaming sites.

Nope - they could have just banned people who were already using it and publicised what they were doing heavily. Would have had the same effect.

No reward with some risk - like I say, it fails at the first hurdle.

Hey, I have no problem with you not believing the thing that seems obvious to me. The timing on this is just not plausible as a coincidence when you consider how rarely real exploits are shared on the "other site".

[lronEnema]

Hey, I have no problem with you not believing the thing that seems obvious to me. The timing on this is just not plausible as a coincidence when you consider how rarely real exploits are shared on the "other site".

We're going have to agree to disagree on what we think is plausible.

[Memnir]

I just have to say that if there were step-by-step instructions* on how to perform this or any exploit, particularly if it was by an employee of the company**, and then they said not to do that particular set of actions it would be exploiting...


How stupid do you have to be to actually use that exploit? I mean, yeah - it's shady and entrapment-ie. But still... how patently and irredeemably stupid do you have to be to actually engage in the exploit? Can you not see the trap laid out? It's not even hidden. And yet, you just walk into it not expecting the trap to go off? Do these people see a speed-trap on the side of the road and speed up, thinking "Hey, I've been speeding for years and not been pulled over. I'm sure that cop isn't going to pull me over either because it hasn't happened yet,"?

Even if the employee didn't explicitly state, "Hey, don't do this - it's an exploit." you have to think that if an employee is saying it... the company itself likely knows about the whole affair. And if the company knows, then they're likely cooking up a way of dealing with it, and those who abuse it. Again, walking into a pit after somebody says "Here is a pit," - it's a pretty head-scratching thing to have done on the part of the person who fell in.

Really. If, in fact, this whole thing happened the way it's said to have happened*** - I cannot feel sorry for the folks who got caught red-handed - even if they were handed the red paint. It's just dumb.


* I don't doubt it, I just haven't seen it.
**Again, I didn't see it - but enough folks have said it happened, and I don't doubt it.
***Phrasing for effect only, it happened.

[HungarianRhapsody]

So a bunch of people, who are **usually** overly careful about sharing the information to the point where they **rarely** share it publicly, saw one "honey pot" post, and simply abandoned all caution, reacting to it by logging into the game and repeatedly exploited it accumulating multiple past lives.

Seems legit.

Given SSG/Turbine's track record of ignoring people who have exploited, it seems reasonable to me. One of the (several) reasons why I didn't bother with that exploit is that it smelled fishy to me. Other reasons are that I can't be bothered and that I generally think using things that are so blatantly abusive is un-fun. The primary reason why people don't tend to share exploits is that Turbine will (sometimes) fix them when it is brought to their attention. Like the no-ML Wondrous Items from Shadowfell that lasted for a while until they were publicly posted and then Turbine finally fixed them.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I just have to say that if there were step-by-step instructions* on how to perform this or any exploit, particularly if it was by an employee of the company**, and then they said not to do that particular set of actions it would be exploiting...


How stupid do you have to be to actually use that exploit? I mean, yeah - it's shady and entrapment-ie. But still... how patently and irredeemably stupid do you have to be to actually engage in the exploit? Can you not see the trap laid out? It's not even hidden. And yet, you just walk into it not expecting the trap to go off? Do these people see a speed-trap on the side of the road and speed up, thinking "Hey, I've been speeding for years and not been pulled over. I'm sure that cop isn't going to pull me over either because it hasn't happened yet,"?

Even if the employee didn't explicitly state, "Hey, don't do this - it's an exploit." you have to think that if an employee is saying it... the company itself likely knows about the whole affair. And if the company knows, then they're likely cooking up a way of dealing with it, and those who abuse it.

Really. If, in fact, this whole thing happened the way it's said to have happened*** - I cannot feel sorry for the folks who got caught red-handed - even if they were handed the red paint. It's just dumb.


* I don't doubt it, I just haven't seen it.
**Again, I didn't see it - but enough folks have said it happened, and I don't doubt it.
***Phrasing for effect only, it happened.

I don't feel at all sorry for the folks that this happened to. I just also think that it was a terrible idea for SSG to do and I think that it was deeply unethical and yes, I really do expect SSG to have higher ethical standards than the people of the "other forums" and exploiters/cheaters in general.

None of this should be taken as an excuse for the dumb and unethical people who got banned and/or had their main characters deleted. I'm fully capable of laughing at them while also castigating SSG for SSG's unethical behavior.

[Memnir]

I don't feel at all sorry for the folks that this happened to. I just also think that it was a terrible idea for SSG to do and I think that it was deeply unethical and yes, I really do expect SSG to have higher ethical standards than the people of the "other forums" and exploiters/cheaters in general.

None of this should be taken as an excuse for the dumb and unethical people who got banned and/or had their main characters deleted. I'm fully capable of laughing at them while also castigating SSG for SSG's unethical behavior.

Agreed. I do see the non-content side of SSG in a different light now, and believe me - it's not a positive one. It's shady as hell.

But still... it's a very Wile E. Coyote way of thinking to follow the blueprint and then to get angry over/be confused when the whole thing blows up in your face.

[Chai]

Given SSG/Turbine's track record of ignoring people who have exploited, it seems reasonable to me. One of the (several) reasons why I didn't bother with that exploit is that it smelled fishy to me. Other reasons are that I can't be bothered and that I generally think using things that are so blatantly abusive is un-fun. The primary reason why people don't tend to share exploits is that Turbine will (sometimes) fix them when it is brought to their attention. Like the no-ML Wondrous Items from Shadowfell that lasted for a while until they were publicly posted and then Turbine finally fixed them.

But it didnt seem fishy to anyone else in the entire sub-community who shares exploits in PMs due to feeling the general need to be overly careful? They just all saw the same "honey pot" post, did a complete 180, and threw caution to the wind?

Now some SSG employee or associate is twirling their mustache in their secret lair marveling at how they were able to destabilize an entire overly careful community with one "honey pot" post.

Seems legit.

[HungarianRhapsody]

But it didnt seem fishy to anyone else in the entire sub-community who shares exploits in PMs due to feeling the general need to be overly careful? They just all saw the same "honey pot" post, did a complete 180, and threw caution to the wind?

Now some SSG employee or associate is twirling their mustache in their secret lair marveling at how they were able to destabilize an entire overly careful community with one "honey pot" post.

Seems legit.

Have you been to the "other forums"? That is not what I'd call an "overly cautious" community.

There are a small number of people in that community who know about some exploits and share them with specific friends, but overall, most of the people on the "other site" don't get to find out about the exploits because most of the people there are not "overly cautious" by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, stay out of the Politics and Religion section there because that's even worse than the comments section on a political youtube video. If you can deal with the **** jokes and the occasional trolls, most of the folks there are decent people. Just like most places that I've seen.

Also, I'm surprised that as many people got nabbed by that as happened. I don't think that most people fell for it, but even a modest percentage of such a big crowd is still going to get big numbers.

Last thought for the day - I don't think that anyone at SSG is twirling their moustaches and cackling evilly. I think that whoever at SSG decided this was a good idea thinks that they're a crusader for justice and honor and is downright proud of what they did. They managed to nab a decent number of exploiters. Good for them. I think that they could have done the same thing without actively putting out bait, but that's a discussion for another day.

[Renvar]

PM sent

I got the PM. It looks like confirmation bias to me.

You believe they did it, so you went looking for facts to support that theory. When you didn't have facts you just assumed they exist without any actual evidence.

[lLockehart]

This discussion has brewed so much for what is relatively simple.

The main problem is the permanent deletion of a character or account which should only be enforced in the most severe offenses such has continuous harassment, hurting others by exploits/griefing etc. This is much more common and acceptable in PvP games since you're actively cheating and hurting other players.

Should players who cheated their way into exp saga be perma banned here? of course not. Not only is it unwise as it is very dodgy since DDO brings in a truckload of bugs and potential exploits each update coupled with its super low playerbase. These players who cheated are most likely long term with a good deal of money already spent on the game.

No one was hurt by this exploit and neither did SSG lost money out of it since they sell digital goods like Otto boxes and such: Fix the exploit > ban the cheaters for X time > rollback what you think it's necessary and there you go, problem fixed. People will keep buying your digital goods again that by the way, are in serious need of a value update.

Imagine banning players who benefited from the duping feast where everyone was running around with 99 stacks of RTB's... yeah. This is a farfetched analogy but it's almost as banning people who fall into a hole in the marketplace because some update bugged it out and now there's like, a chest with 500 AS's. yeah people will get that of course, everyone would know it's not WAI... so?

The saddest thing? It's that my best time playing this game was probably around then, when everyone had RTB's and interest in raids jumped immensely, at least on Orion. There was this swell guy with its character named 'Item' he prepared Raids that were rarely ran outside of guilds like Titan or Abbot. He would give RTB's to people who needed it along with some other players and everyone could learn the raids and help in succeeding them. The game most likely even benefited from it since players probably bought way more from the store or extra packs since they could now run raids. Yeah, if Item was permabanned back then or similar players that keep the game alive by their sheer community involvement... I wouldn't take it very well either.

[J-mann]

There is no such evidence of a honeypot trap. This is just a smokescreen by exploiters and exploiter sympathizers to try to justify the actions of the exploiters.

Even if it WAS a honeypot, which no evidence exists for, but assuming it was, there was nothing wrong or shady of ssg if they did. Police do this ALL the time, from bait cars to posing as drug dealers/hitmen/prostitutes/little kids on the internet, it is NOT entrapment. In order to be entrapment ssg wpuld have had to actively coerced, cajoled, or by other means make people change their normal behavior.

This is exactly like if the cops left a car in a parking lot with a tracker in it with the keys inside the vehicle... if you steal the vehicle the police did nothing to change your normal behavior you were just caught. So (not addressing you here but OTHER posters) stop defending your actions when you got caught red handed.

[Chai]

I believe that SSG put out an exploit honeypot because it's blatantly obvious that they did based on the timing and the fact that exploits are *rarely* shared in public on the "other site" and people ask for PMs instead.

Have you been to the "other forums"? That is not what I'd call an "overly cautious" community.

Seems legit.

[Seikojin]

Yep, but once again, the issue I'm on about here is whether you're actually identifying what you think you are identifying. I'm not taking about what should be done to people who have exploited, I'm talking about setting up a good process that may lead to a punishment.

Make a mistake specifying the report or processing the data from it and without any interaction with the customers you're straight at issuing bans, potentially by mistake, with no step in place to reduce the likelihood of people being wrongly punished. This process has clearly been designed with expedience as the primary concern, not fairness or with a safeguard to prevent customers from being treated badly if SSG gets it wrong.

It's kind of surprising to see people (not you, Cantor) defending a process where the subject is not allowed to give an account of themselves before guilt is decided and the punishment is applied. I can't imagine anyone here being happy if this was done to them by mistake, yet here they are endorsing it as fine for other people.

Use a better process, SSG. That's all I'm saying.

Thanks.

Actually, from my experience the 'Delete exploited things (duped items or character who use exploits to gain levels)' and dealing with fallout is less headache than building some process that forces bi-directional communication for every step. In my cases, exploiters got a temp ban, their characters were scrubbed for duped items and de-levelled for exploited exp gains. If they complained after their ban (the ban notice came with a legalese on breaching terms for exploiting directly or indirectly), then a CS rep would work with them. Notes on the internal system detailed what was done and why (id X attached to exp repeated, id Y attached to currency was repeated, etc)., so the CS rep had information they could use to craft responses or handle the incoming rage from the user.

Whereas other times, when step by step communication was done, users vitrol on the forums or public facing outlets became feverish. Since each step where progress was halted allowed far too much time for irritation to fester. Both about the ban time and the communication process.

Now, does this mean data mistakes can lead to inappropriate bans/actions? Yeah. However, it would be pretty easy to spot a bug in game code vs exploiting. A bug in game code would be a small cluster of failure. Exploiting, even for an hour, would be a yuge log of alternative facts.

[Knobull]

The longer this thread goes on, the more pathetic both sides of the argument seem to me.

Me, I just play DDO and skip all the grind. I buy content (adventure packs) and nothing else.

I think there is some perspective lacking here.

[HAL]

I'm saying that Chai is using terrible analogies and metaphors based on inaccurate comparisons and outright misstatements.

Except that's not actually what you said. What you said seems to be an argument that exploiting is simply a shade off from what the devs intended. I.e.: if your Mother spends money to feed and clothe you, it's not really that bad to simply take her money and buy things for yourself...

[HAL]

I don't misunderstand your position. I just disagree with it. It is NOT like stealing because it isn't a thing being taken from someone (like stealing a car or stealing money, etc). With stealing, a person has a thing and you take it and they no longer have that thing.

People always have this problem with understanding intellectual or digital property: "it's not a thing". But look what happened to Napster: they were wrong.

[HAL]

I kind of agree with this. I wish they had a 6 month back up they could have pulled from.

So you wish they would have spent money on this for the benefit of the cheaters rather than spend money on new content? I completely disagree.