Druid Update Preview V.2

[Garix]

Anger of the Noon Day Sun (updated)
Creatures affected who were resistant to fire now take full damage

Mantle of Ice (updated)
Creatures affected who were immune to cold now take full damage

Is this correct? Or are they both meant to be the same? Either Immune or Resistant.

[the_dark_one]

The overall looks not bad, except for a few things.

How about to give druid animals a own shield mastery feat/enhanchement without combatstyle? That they still get a bonus to prr/mrr and ac when they use a shield?
Otherwise shields like Dethek Runestone are more worthless in animal shape. The nature defense stance in the bear tree is really nice, but a feat which gives extra bonuses to the armor while using a shield would be good too, especially for pure druid bear tanks.


I totaly agree to recommend a Herald capstone, with:
+4 Wis
+2 CL/MCL

[Avocado]

Mantle of Ice (updated)
Creatures affected who were immune to cold now take full damage
10% attack speed slow
25% movement speed slow
-4 to fort saves


)[/INDENT]

Is this a typo or is mantle on the icy soul still going to give -4 to reflex and fort saves, or just fort now? Please keep it as both Essentially my driud earthquake dc will drop by 4 with this change. Not cool if that is the case. Druids have about 2 spells, finger and saltray, that use fortitude saves and finger of death has little support from druid trees. Reflex on other hand affects: earthquake, call lightning, call lightning strom, storm of vengence, sunburst, sunbeam, flamestrike, and wall of fire. So i lose 4 dc's to all of those spells. PLEASE LET THIS BE A TYPO.

[Qhualor]

Yes the changes apply. No it probably won't really help your ranger much except in early heroics. We might look at removing the first saving throw which means you could at least get a 6 second CC out of it even if your DC is garbage.

On a side note we made split warlock and druid howls of terror into their own versions (probably change one of their names) so they can pursue different spell schools

I could see a dexterity saving throw against snare and than a strength check every 6 seconds to get free. It doesn't feel right to just remove the first save. What would help too is if the area of the snare is wider. When you cast it, it looks like a dot. Upping the DC could also help, but a couple years ago on Lama I posted a video of my ranger that put all feats, enhancements, etc on my level 30 that should boost spells like Snare and was still worthless. The video shows me running around casting Snare and Spike Growth in GH wilderness and you could see the DW symbols over the mobs heads every time they ran through them. Only in low level content on my level 30 pure ranger did Snare work, like the mobs in Searing Heights. I can try digging it up later if you like.

[Torc]

I can't remember if this was answered in the first thread: do we still take the Improved Critical Blunt weapons feat for animal forms (unarmed); or do we take the Imp Crit feat which matches the weapon type we're using?

EDIT: Headman's Chop currently applies in wolf / bear form with an axe equipped; will that still be the case?
Oh well, so much for my bear / Eldritch Knight AC tank ideas.
Disappointed that Natural Fighting isn't getting any buffs to wolf form. Particularly since endgame builds can exceed 100% doublestrike while temp-boosted.

For bear form, will bonuses to glancing blows from other Enhancements apply as well (e.g., Frenzied Berserker's Mad Munitions)?
I don't see a crit range bonus in either Nature tree; will crit range bonuses from other trees (e.g., Kensei's Keen Edge) apply to animal forms? For that matter, would Strike with No Thought apply to wolf / bear form if someone did e.g. druid 9 / fighter 6?

Can you make it so stacks decay one at a time like e.g. Killer? Currently on live they expire all at once when the timer runs out, making Fatal Harrier a lot more of a pain to sustain than other stacking bonuses.

Will Divine Crusader's doublestrike bonuses apply to animal forms? If so, Zeal of the Righteous easily pushes you past 100%.

A simple stopgap: make Nature's Warrior action boost a selector between Doublestrike or Melee Power Boost. So those with static doublestrike of over 70% can decide which is better for them.

Also: historically wolf / bear builds could benefit from doublestrike bonuses from Wind stance and Shield Mastery feats, going all the way back to initial release, IIRC. Will either / both still work post-update?

1. Improved Crit will work based on the weapon your holding.

2. Head man's chop - Yes. Passive bonuses to weapons will always work. At least that is our working assumption right now. There are a few attack speed based abilities that do it in a way that is specific to the animations of the style. They will not work and be flagged specifically in their description.

3. Bear Glancing blows can benefit from bonuses from any source.

4. There is no crit range bonus in the tree. That's currently on purpose to encourage multi classing.

5. Zeal - Yeah... and we could easily move the natural weapon fighting to melee power. It's just at the amounts we'd give it would be considered a nerf to anyone not running hot on double strike so that's why we've been leaving it alone for now. We're not really against changing it. We'll see how it goes. The action boost selector suggestion is a good one.

6. Shield mastery which is treated as a combat style will currently not work in the current plan while you are in bear/wolf form.

[Ahwaric]

Not the first time I've heard Beguile doesn't have much appeal. It wouldn't surprise if something else replaced it, though we're pretty booked up on space so it'll be a tier 1 whatever it is. We've heard requests to save spell pen or the wand & scroll enhancements which may take it's place if something new doesn't happen.
-T

Actually, I quite like Beguille. It is a nice twist to the class, and useful even for melee druids. More than anything that involves wild empathy tbh (btw, it would be great to finally get some use for it which is not a waste of time)
I think beguile is just slightly too limited now. I understand it not applying to bosses, but why only apply to one enemy per second? Especially as it can add 0 stacks? If it could apply to all mobs affected by aoe spell, it would be great. If you really must keep 1 enemy per second, add minimum 1 stack for tier 2&3.
And please, do not replace it with spell Pen. It is useless for druids (1 spell affected, right?).

Also, as I asked in the previous thread, why remove all transmutation bonuses for druids? We will get -2 to transmutation DC compared to current situation, and It is hardly game breaking as it is. Even if it would be coupled with +DC do evocation (as it was) and Conjuration (new).
Removing transmutation hurts water druids more then fire ones - unless that is your plan, I do not think it is a good idea.

EDIT: I meant wild empathy when writing about useless things, not wilderness lore (fixed above). Wilderness lore is used more and more, which I love.

[Torc]

Would this affect NPCs as well? It’s already frustrating when my low-strength caster fails the save; getting locked down for a minute with no save would be quite punishing.

Tis a good point. We do have a separate duration for players on CCs so we can likely make it shorter. Still, we'll keep that in mind when we work on it.

[edrein]

2. Head man's chop - Yes. Passive bonuses to weapons will always work. At least that is our working assumption right now. There are a few attack speed based abilities that do it in a way that is specific to the animations of the style. They will not work and be flagged specifically in their description.

3. Bear Glancing blows can benefit from bonuses from any source.

4. There is no crit range bonus in the tree. That's currently on purpose to encourage multi classing.

6. Shield mastery which is treated as a combat style will currently not work in the current plan while you are in bear/wolf form.

2. This includes effects like Bleeding Cuts from Vistani?

3. Except this excludes THF which is the bulk of glancing blow beneficiaries. Please consider tucking a smidge of glancing blow based bonuses within the bear tree.

4. So punish the pure to promote the mutt? Not a fan of this logic since it first crept up. Please consider giving atleast 18 core threat range bonuses for both bears and wolves.

6. I can get not giving us the doublestrike bonuses. But missing out on the PRR and AC is rough. In your opinion why should I equip Dethek Runestone over going Two Hander for the 1.5 stat bonus? In particular for the case of wolves over bears. Why give up evasion for practically no benefit? (Albeit we all know a pure druid's evasion would be speculative at best.)

[Tom116]

4. There is no crit range bonus in the tree. That's currently on purpose to encourage multi classing.

5. Zeal - Yeah... and we could easily move the natural weapon fighting to melee power. It's just at the amounts we'd give it would be considered a nerf to anyone not running hot on double strike so that's why we've been leaving it alone for now. We're not really against changing it. We'll see how it goes. The action boost selector suggestion is a good one.

Could you not have said that you wanted to encourage multiclass as the reasoning instead of the claim that "they aren't a melee class"? That argument made no sense at all when you give the same bonuses to clerics and bards. I still disagree with the decision, but now at least you have a reasoning that makes sense.

Glad to hear the doublestrike message got through. Action boost sounds good (Y)

[Torc]

Anger of the Noon Day Sun (updated)
Creatures affected who were resistant to fire now take full damage

Mantle of Ice (updated)
Creatures affected who were immune to cold now take full damage

Is this correct? Or are they both meant to be the same? Either Immune or Resistant.

If the monster takes less than full damage they will now take full damage. (I'll clarify that in the first post)

[Vorachtin]

Bear had potential, not being able to use a shield and gain benefits from, killed it.

Altho if you want to make a barbarian that attacks slower and cast spells I guess you would dig it.

Druid will be a good trap class for new players after this pass, but will remain sub-optimal. Which is unfortunate.

[Tom116]

Bear had potential, not being able to use a shield and gain benefits from, killed it.

Altho if you want to make a barbarian that attacks slower and cast spells I guess you would dig it.

Druid will be a good trap class for new players after this pass, but will remain sub-optimal. Which is unfortunate.

Eh, pure druid will be a good trap. +1 Multiplier puts them over the stinking heap of garbage that is Eldritch Knight, but below actual dps competitors. Somewhere around a non-Swashing Warchanter I'd say. I could see Drunks coming back after this though, with the insane amount of MP they gave henshin and wolf form being half decent. Would have to look at AP allocation to make up for the lack of critical threat range. Maybe dagger with vistani stuff?

[Silverleafeon]

If the monster takes less than full damage they will now take full damage. (I'll clarify that in the first post)

Seriously appreciated, thank you!

Now if you could figure out some way that we could use Meta-Magic Feats more universally instead of mostly on SLAs that would be very grand?
After all, we are spending a feat on them.

Maybe we could change them to be like this:


Empower Spell: you add +1 universal spell power per character level & +2 universal spell power per spell level & +1 universal spell power per caster level to the spell this applies to. This metamagic does not increase spell point cost. (Ditto for Empowered Healing).

Maximize Spell: you add +2 universal spell power per character level & +4 universal spell power per spell level & +2 universal spell power per caster level to the spell this applies to. This metamagic does not increase spell point cost. Requirement: Empowered Spell

Heighten Spell: you increase the spell level of this spell +2 up to the highest level that you can cast. This metamagic does not increase spell point cost.

Improved Heighten Spell:you increase the spell level of this spell to the highest level that you can cast. This metamagic does not increase spell point cost. Requirement: Heighten Spell.

Quicken: same as before but without increase spell cost. Requirement Mobile Spellcasting (or Combat Casting if you want).

Mobile Spellcasting same as before but without requirement of Combat Casting.

Intensify: you add +1 universal spell power per character level & +2 universal spell power per spell level & +1 universal spell power per caster level to the spell this applies to. This metamagic does not increase spell point cost. Requirement Maximize Spell.

Ect...


This does make Casters a bit more feat intensive, but allows a much wider range of magical choices, which could be very beneficial.
It also scales Metamagics much better into Epic and makes them a bit less powerful in heroic where Magic Users do very well from level 8 to 20 anyway.

If ultimately Max & Emp gave slightly less universal spell power but were widely used, the overall effect would be very nice for me.

[edrein]

Seriously appreciated, thank you!

Now if you could figure out some way that we could use Meta-Magic Feats more universally instead of mostly on SLAs that would be very grand?
After all, we are spending a feat on them.

Maybe we could change them to be like this:


Empower Spell: you add +1 universal spell power per character level & +2 universal spell power per spell level & +1 universal spell power per caster level to the spell this applies to. This metamagic does not increase spell point cost. (Ditto for Empowered Healing).

Maximize Spell: you add +2 universal spell power per character level & +4 universal spell power per spell level & +2 universal spell power per caster level to the spell this applies to. This metamagic does not increase spell point cost. Requirement: Empowered Spell

Heighten Spell: you increase the spell level of this spell +2 up to the highest level that you can cast. This metamagic does not increase spell point cost.

Improved Heighten Spell:you increase the spell level of this spell to the highest level that you can cast. This metamagic does not increase spell point cost. Requirement: Heighten Spell.

Quicken: same as before but without increase spell cost. Requirement Mobile Spellcasting (or Combat Casting if you want).

Mobile Spellcasting same as before but without requirement of Combat Casting.

Intensify: you add +1 universal spell power per character level & +2 universal spell power per spell level & +1 universal spell power per caster level to the spell this applies to. This metamagic does not increase spell point cost. Requirement Maximize Spell.

Ect...


This does make Casters a bit more feat intensive, but allows a much wider range of magical choices, which could be very beneficial.
It also scales Metamagics much better into Epic and makes them a bit less powerful in heroic where Magic Users do very well from level 8 to 20 anyway.

If ultimately Max & Emp gave slightly less universal spell power but were widely used, the overall effect would be very nice for me.

I'd argue this would end up benefiting Wizards and Artificers best, while penalizing Sorcerers and Druids who arguably need the most meta usage. The fact Wizzies and Arties get meta choices tax free is where the problem would lie. That's essentially a free "Unlimited Powah" option for them, where as Druids and Sorcs have to play a balancing act (same for Clerics and FVS.)

[Captain_Wizbang]

As I recall they don't have the animation department available for this pass at the moment.

.. Guess I should have read a little deeper for that. My bad.

[Tilomere]

If bear form gets an AoE stun on a 2 second cool down at level 4, I'm sure I'll be able to wing the rest and make it work. Heh.

[SerPounce]

The following druid innate animal spells will now work regardless of rage, feeblemind, quell or anti magic. Additional Changes listed per ability

Maul & Great Maul

Take Down
-DC: 11 + Highest of Str/wis + Trip mods + Half Druid level

Pack Pressence

Baiting Bite
-DC: You use your spot score for the bluff role. This is still considered a bluff skill check.

Shred
-DC 13 + Highest of Str/wis + Sunder mods + Half Druid level

Harrowing Pack

Rising Fury

Cold Breath
-Damage Die reduced to 1d4+1 from 1d6
-Reflex save removed

Tenacious Pack

Tremor
-DC: 16 + Highest of Str/wis + Trip mods + Half Druid level

Jaws of Winter
-DC: 17 + Highest of Str/wis + Stun mods + Half Druid level
-Dropped from spell book level 7 to 6.

Relentless assault

Howl of Terror
-Changed to Transmutation School

Unstoppable

Snow Slide *
-DC: 19 + Highest of Str/wis + Stun mods + Half Druid level

*SO* happy to see this! This is really great improvements. My my only suggestions is shred, like other updated sunder effects, shred needs something other than an AC drop. Probably a fortification hit, but it could be vulnerability, or a percentage AC drop, or whatever. A 4 AC drop is nothing in the current system.

What's the asterisk after snowslide for?

[edrein]

Thanks for the other part of the reply, but please don't make statements like this. You aren't SSG, no offense.

As for the entire druids pass we see far. I foresee a new *FotM OP build/class that will be only slightly less op than warlocks.*

*which means the players will love it*

That part of the reply was literally based upon their own words in the original Update Thread, but alrighty.

[Kza]

I like that the capstone is tuned down (so multi is an option). But ... not that the dc:s is tuned down and the + in casterlvl/maxcaster lvl is downtuned.

othervise Changes are Lovely and fun- totally awesome and uniqe Changes to noonday/icy mantle!

But when i look at my current warlock with all pastlives and around 55 reaperpoints. I really Think he is stronger in all aspects of game solo and stronger in all except heal others in Group if i should tr him into a druid again..

Suggestion : buff core 12 and 18. Give one +1dc to evo conj and transmutation and other +1/+1 caster lvl/ max caster lvl.
rechange mantle so it help earthquake dc again.
And add + transmutaion dc to capstone. (mass frog is awesome and a druidspell imho)


The druidcaster is awesomely fun, but the lure of Power makes me atleast go darkside (warlock), and from my Point of view warlock still totally outclass druid even after this. They need a bit more!

(I only talk around druid as caster dps/cc/healer)

[Drag-]

4. There is no crit range bonus in the tree. That's currently on purpose to encourage multi classing.

5. Zeal - Yeah... and we could easily move the natural weapon fighting to melee power. It's just at the amounts we'd give it would be considered a nerf to anyone not running hot on double strike so that's why we've been leaving it alone for now. We're not really against changing it. We'll see how it goes. The action boost selector suggestion is a good one.

6. Shield mastery which is treated as a combat style will currently not work in the current plan while you are in bear/wolf form.

4. So we are encouraged to multi class to grab the crit range? That is a pretty deep splash to grab crit range and pretty much goes against what you said earlier about how you snowslide out then charge back in to maintain the higher melee power, but whatever. Also if we multiclass for crit range we either need "splash" into barb for crit rage or fighter for tier 5 kensai. This kinda kills the whole revamping of the tree if we arent even encouraged to get tier 5 in natures warrior.

5. Is "running hot" on doublestrike not a normal thing to build towards as a melee? I understand that if you are just doing a build for a life or for fun that you might not max out on doublestrike and benefit greatly from Zeal but if you build a good endgame build and plan good gear as well you are going to be "running hot" on doublestrike. If you plan around characters not having that high doublestrike, characters that are ready to try a endgame build will try a different class because why build a druid when your doublestrike will be wasted when you could just build a monk and not have your doublestrike wasted.

6. Its been mentioned before but if this is the case then Bears are going to have a very hard tanking because you are cutting off half the benefits of using a shield.

Is there any plan for perfect natural fighting?

Also will you be changing the level you can take natural fighting? Currently you can take all other combat styles at level 1 but you have to wait til level 9 for natural fighting. This means that for any pure druid level 9-18 feats are going to be Natural Fighting, Improved Crit, Natural Fighting, Natural Fighting. No variance at all.