20 Monk: Shintao (reaper-optimized)

[Vish]

Because he got deleted.
That's permanent death.
Don't show your face around here kinDa thing.

Ask those guys at omni how they build their monks

[Symbiont]

There is something really wrong with those screenshots. Even with the same gear, same feats, same enhancement, same PLs I would not reach those values.

I still want to see a breakdown of that INT, and with the rogue PL active I can't reach 150 hide like the ss. The only stat I can reach is DEX, because I am running an elf, but using crumblings atm and the gear you said you are using do not include insightful dexterity, so that's 7.

Intelligence Breakdown:
12 (Creation)
+7 (Tome)
+4 (Racial Completionist and Drow/Gnome intelligence racial PLs)
+2 (Profane Well-Rounded)
+2 (Ship Buff)
+19 (Intelligence)
+2 (Festive Intelligence)
+9 (Insightful Intelligence)
+4 (Quality Intelligence)
+5 (Touch the Void Dragon)
+2 (Long Lasting Elixir of Supreme Ability)
= 68 Intelligence

+7 (Sentient Weapon; seven different intelligence filigrees slotted as a weapon swap prior to KTA)
+2 (Reaper Helm)
+5 (Dire Thaumaturge)
+2 (Yugoloth Potions)
= 84 Potential Intelligence

As for the hide bonus, I don't remember the exact bonuses I had going, but there was an influx of self-buffs I used; most of which that raised skills. Assuming you have identical gear, Greater Heroism clickies/potions, Elite Spider Cult Mask (cosmetic clickie, +1 to all skills), Sneak of Shadows, the Shadowdancer Twist of Fate (Stealthy, +6 Hide) and so forth, your hide should be pretty close to this amount. Even if it hovers around 130-140, the difference in damage is almost negligible.

By the way, how are you getting 20 points from AC from armor? I use the same armor, same feats, same enh, and I get a bunch less (have to log in to see exactly, but I'm 100% sure it's not 20). Someone might think that value is exactly the same you get from epic mage armor... one might think things.

I genuinely can't pinpoint the source of the +20 Armor Bonus. Rest assured that I do not run Epic Mage Armor, though Tenser's Transformation may have something to do with this, as the armor specifies +14 Armor Bonus standing, and Tenser's provides a +6 Alchemical bonus. Whether or not this is incorporated directly into the Armor Bonus is what I'm unsure of, but this isn't an attempt to bloat numbers to inconsistent values for eye-candy.

49% dodge huh?

This is actually a mistake through my negligence; this should be 46%. Prior to taking a screenshot of enhancements, I was experimenting with a plethora of allocations. The screenshot of dodge was during a setup where I had Embrace the Void x3 (Henshin Mystic, +3 dodge cap) instead of Quick Strike. As I had already reincarnated out of the life by the time I realized that this was slightly off, I just disregarded it, as I didn't want to TR back to it to fix a 3% graphical error. You should normally be running 43% outside of reaper; the extra 3% is coming from Capstone + Tier 5s in Grim Barricade.

How are you getting 20.8[W] on your wrap? You show you have +150 to hit in the picture of the Duality in your inv, but in your videos you are with +150 on sneak attack, what means you actual to-hit is about 130. Confirmed by, one of your screenshots in the sheet wich is also showing +130 and your videos.

There was a bug that allowed glamored weapons and items to retain set bonuses. Pain and Suffering set added +2[W]; it reasonably stands at 17.75[W], as I also had Combat Brute active. The screenshot of the handwrap damage statistics was during combat, without any extra-rare super-short cookies or buffs active. With all Advancing Blow stacks accumulated, all relative and consistent buffs active simultaneously, and while beating a boss, that is the + to-hit you can expect the weapon to achieve.

The videos show inconsistent values, as the attack bonus fluctuates in two-digit amounts while fighting; so I decided to screenshot the weapon's potential profile versus bosses - where everything and anything incorporated into landing strikes versus high-value targets was at its pinnacle. It may have been more reasonable to screenshot the standing profile of the weapon (I might put standing and fully-buffed side-by-side in the next spreadsheet), but I don't believe in showing a standing value when it can be buffed to something much higher during combat, as you aren't "just standing" during an end fight.

241 PRR without quality PRR and insightful PRR. Even counting maxxed grim barricade, I don't think I could get that (counting mists, max past lives. Breakdown please.

PRR Breakdown:
36 (Past Lives)
+50 (Physical Sheltering)
+20 (Iron Skin)
+20 (Improved Combat Expertise)
+20 (Adherent of the Mists*)
+9 (Henshin Mystic cores)
+30 (Master's Blitz Resistance)
+7 (Mythic and Reaper gear bonuses)
+2 (Champion Hunter Chrisms)
+21 (Grim Barricade) <- at this time, Tier 4 of Reaper's Bulwark gave +3 PRR instead of +6
+2 (Prowess: Dexterity [Rare])
+2 (Prowess: Critical Confirmation [Rare])
+3 (Prowess: PRR [Rare])
+2 (Prowess: Attack and Damage [Rare])
+5 (Prowess: 2-Piece Set)
+2 (Sucker Punch: Attack and Damage [Rare])
+10 (Long Lasting Elixir of PRR +10) <- unethical bonus
= 241 Physical Resistance Rating

*Adherent of the Mists and the PRR +10 potion are the only inconsistent values on this breakdown. At the time, you could occupy a cosmetic slot to fill the last item required to benefit from the bonus; while literally everyone was doing this at this time, it is still an inconsistent value. The aasimar version I currently run can sustain overall higher stats in Improved Combat Expertise - PRR in particular (at 256) - than this half-orc version, but it lacks helpless amplification.

How are you getting 50 MRR without MRR item not even augment?

This is both another mistake through my negligence and one severe flaw in the build I absolutely disliked; I forgot to list the +16 augment, but even so, the sustainable MRR does not meet the cap (although the deficit is not extremely major, assuming you have all the PLs), and this was offset only by using Long Lasting Elixirs of MRR +10 (store-bought).

MRR Breakdown:
9 (Deep Gnome PLs)
9 (Warlock PLs)
7 (Reaper and Mythic gear bonuses)
16 (Augment)
2 (Champion Hunter Chrism)
2 (Prowess: PRR [Rare])
= 45 Magical Resistance Rating
+10 (Long Lasting Elixir of MRR)
= 50 Magical Resistance Rating (monk-cap)

A lot of these inconsistencies are why I ultimately switched to Aasimar with Protector Bond - a lot of these flaws were offset. I also received a massive DC boost, much more HP (to replace Opposition for slotting Adherent), and a wealth of self-sustainability. In future spreadsheets, I'll include breakdowns alongside the statistics in the form of notes, with the exclusion of temporary values.

I mean you come on here posting outrageous numbers
Then you and your buddies get deleted
I would say that's suspicious
Like, not to be believed suspicious

The only "not-to-be-believed-suspicious" accounts for +20 PRR and +2[W]. This is an almost negligible difference, and the revised version of this build (which is superior to this half-orc, but not on spreadsheet) outperforms this build without those values. Gearing and optimizing to this extent allows you to output numbers that almost everyone believes to be unattainable.

Because he got deleted.
That's permanent death.
Don't show your face around here kinDa thing.

My character was restored. Since the exploit that got a numerous amount of characters "deleted" is well-known now, I'll make a few points about it. While this in no way excuses the fact that I took advantage of it, I did precisely 4 lives (3 gnome/1 EPL) with saga XP. This is nowhere as malicious as what many others have done; and the characters were transferred to a subsidiary server to have the according lives rolled-back, followed by restoration.

[Ellihor]

Thank you for response and sincerity about bugs. That's great news that you're back btw

[airbornerangers]

any chance you would post new and better build currently in use with and ap spread also? please please pretty please?

[Symbiont]

any chance you would post new and better build currently in use with and ap spread also? please please pretty please?

Most likely. If I post it at all, it'll be in around a month.

[Amideus]

How would a 16/3/1 Monk, Fighter, Favored Soul feel?

You would get the +4 from Aasamir via bonus wisdom and Fallen Bond.
You would get +3 from Fighter Tactics, and you could also get 15 PRR/MRR and +3 saves from Stalwart Stance instead of the 10 PRR/MRR and +3% health from Meditation at War.
And you would get the Wisdom to damage and DCs from Divine Will.

You would have to use a feat slot to get Grandmaster of Forms, but you're also getting an extra feat from Fighter levels to balance that out potentially. So you're losing Touch of the Void Dragon which is a temporary 2-5 wisdom which could be 1-4 DC and 1W for the more reliable +3 DC at all times and potential for more saves and PRR/MRR.

Just a thought. Aasamir definitely seems like the winner for DCs now, giving +5 overall with FvS instead of the +3 dwarves gave from their tactics.

[noobodyfool]

Wow Just Wow

[adrian69]

There have been a numerous amount of statements regarding the disadvantages of melee in high-skull reaper; after exponential mob and difficulty scaling, the base hits taken from generic mobs are colossal enough to absolutely annihilate a traditionalist character. Having to stand toe-to-toe with these mobs, while penetrating a plethora of damage-mitigating factors (AC, DR, etc) to physically inflict damage, is overwhelming. The sheer amount of reaper-related (and champion) abilities are numerous enough to vaporize anyone at a second's notice; the slightest deviation of attention, the slightest inconsistency in your optimization, the unluckiest (and most common) pulls of enemies all frequently result in your becoming of a soul stone. With the meta supposedly favoring those in the back-lines, and the stereotype for melee nearly desolate because of this; how could a melee possibly not only survive - but effectively perform - versus adversaries of this caliber? The solution is as effective as it is momentous: overpower your opponents with a build that is as devastatingly destructive as it is invulnerable.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...l1U/edit#gid=0

General Overview:

• HP (in Reaper): 2,500+
• Sustainable Dire Charge DC: 115
• Sustainable Jade/Shintao DC: 112
• Sustainable Stunning Fist DC: 108
• Physical Resistance Rating (PRR): 241; 70.67% damage mitigation
• Magical Resistance Rating (MRR): 50; 33.33% damage mitigation (monk cap)
• Dodge: 49%
• Incorporeal Miss Chance: 25%
• Armor Class: 226 (81% defense chance at level)
• +30% Passive Movement Speed and Abundant Steps
• Fortitude Save: 110
• Reflex Save: 110
• Will Save: 87
• Standing Doublestrike: 66.91%
• Fully-buffed Doublestrike: 103.91%
• Melee Power: 326
• Healing Amplification: 191

In this spreadsheet, every single item, everything taken during level progression, the DCs of every ability, and every aspect of performance is listed and elaborated upon in meticulous detail; this class, with the allocation of abilities and enhancements showcased in the file above, incorporates a maelstrom of abilities to debilitate and dismember anything unfortunate enough to stand in your hitbox, with an arsenal of primary and emergency CC (crowd-control) utilities to ensure that whatever you are attacking is too overcome to fight back. This build specializes in raw damage, with a truly scary amount of helpless amplification - while honing its ability to bring mobs to a helpless state. Numerous videos of the monk's performance in reaper are shown, and any questions/concerns are welcome!

The only thing the recent monk nerf did was reduced Henshin melee power, killed the bug, and lowered the di on the Duality, right? Am I missing anything? This build wasn't affected much, right?

[Kodwraith]

The only thing the recent monk nerf did was reduced Henshin melee power, killed the bug, and lowered the di on the Duality, right? Am I missing anything? This build wasn't affected much, right?

Correct. I run something similar but with a lot less gear and the changes were not that noticeable. I kill things marginally less quickly but it's pretty marginal. Of course, If I'm standing next to Astrican, everything is already dead before I get there.

The other change, was it also dumped a bunch of melee power in GMoF (+50 vs +15 (iirc) previously), so if for some reason you were running in GMoF previously, you saw a huge boost. For some quests where it's hard to maintain a blitz, GMoF might be more competitive now. You'd get less crit profile, but better saves, and melee power equivalent to a 2/3rds charged blitz. The GMoF AoE trip might make it worthwhile.

[Alled78]

How would a 16/3/1 Monk, Fighter, Favored Soul feel?

You would get the +4 from Aasamir via bonus wisdom and Fallen Bond.
You would get +3 from Fighter Tactics, and you could also get 15 PRR/MRR and +3 saves from Stalwart Stance instead of the 10 PRR/MRR and +3% health from Meditation at War.
And you would get the Wisdom to damage and DCs from Divine Will.

You would have to use a feat slot to get Grandmaster of Forms, but you're also getting an extra feat from Fighter levels to balance that out potentially. So you're losing Touch of the Void Dragon which is a temporary 2-5 wisdom which could be 1-4 DC and 1W for the more reliable +3 DC at all times and potential for more saves and PRR/MRR.

Just a thought. Aasamir definitely seems like the winner for DCs now, giving +5 overall with FvS instead of the +3 dwarves gave from their tactics.

Main problem i n reaper is dps mobs immune to instantkill, so better focus the build for dps, leave instantkill to caster. I think 20 monk is far superior to any split.
With 16 monks u lose too much.

[adrian69]

Main problem i n reaper is dps mobs immune to instantkill, so better focus the build for dps, leave instantkill to caster. I think 20 monk is far superior to any split.
With 16 monks u lose too much.

I'll second that pure is better, especially if you're planning on using a DC build (exceptions to SF and Dire Charge of course). By not going pure you'll be down a DC every level or 2 depending on the ability. So basically by the time you pick Aasimar DCs up it's a wash. The only monk splash I'd consider would be 18/1 FvS/1 X. But then you're losing 25 melee power. You need to make sure you are getting at least than +9 to +12 Damage from DM:Wisdom to wash it out.

[slarden]

I'll second that pure is better, especially if you're planning on using a DC build (exceptions to SF and Dire Charge of course). By not going pure you'll be down a DC every level or 2 depending on the ability. So basically by the time you pick Aasimar DCs up it's a wash. The only monk splash I'd consider would be 18/1 FvS/1 X. But then you're losing 25 melee power. You need to make sure you are getting at least than +9 to +12 Damage from DM:Wisdom to wash it out.

I’ve been looking at either an 18/1 fvs/1 wizard or pure 20 Shintao. It seems the [2] W from the Shintao capstone is a huge reason to go pure, but does it stack with the [1]W from the 18 core or is it only a [1]W improvement?

[adrian69]

I’ve been looking at either an 18/1 fvs/1 wizard or pure 20 Shintao. It seems the [2] W from the Shintao capstone is a huge reason to go pure, but does it stack with the [1]W from the 18 core or is it only a [1]W improvement?

TBH, I have never checked to see which way it added. I always figured it was +3 total since SSG was trying to move away the confusing descriptions like this Turbine was good for.

20.8 seems to be what Symmbiot is getting with Duality if you can back engineer that.

I'm only 12 atm, but I can check at 20 in a couple of days and report back if I remember.

[Opensezame]

There have been a numerous amount of statements regarding the disadvantages of melee in high-skull reaper; after exponential mob and difficulty scaling, the base hits taken from generic mobs are colossal enough to absolutely annihilate a traditionalist character. Having to stand toe-to-toe with these mobs, while penetrating a plethora of damage-mitigating factors (AC, DR, etc) to physically inflict damage, is overwhelming. The sheer amount of reaper-related (and champion) abilities are numerous enough to vaporize anyone at a second's notice; the slightest deviation of attention, the slightest inconsistency in your optimization, the unluckiest (and most common) pulls of enemies all frequently result in your becoming of a soul stone. With the meta supposedly favoring those in the back-lines, and the stereotype for melee nearly desolate because of this; how could a melee possibly not only survive - but effectively perform - versus adversaries of this caliber? The solution is as effective as it is momentous: overpower your opponents with a build that is as devastatingly destructive as it is invulnerable.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...l1U/edit#gid=0

General Overview:

• HP (in Reaper): 2,500+
• Sustainable Dire Charge DC: 115
• Sustainable Jade/Shintao DC: 112
• Sustainable Stunning Fist DC: 108
• Physical Resistance Rating (PRR): 241; 70.67% damage mitigation
• Magical Resistance Rating (MRR): 50; 33.33% damage mitigation (monk cap)
• Dodge: 49%
• Incorporeal Miss Chance: 25%
• Armor Class: 226 (81% defense chance at level)
• +30% Passive Movement Speed and Abundant Steps
• Fortitude Save: 110
• Reflex Save: 110
• Will Save: 87
• Standing Doublestrike: 66.91%
• Fully-buffed Doublestrike: 103.91%
• Melee Power: 326
• Healing Amplification: 191

In this spreadsheet, every single item, everything taken during level progression, the DCs of every ability, and every aspect of performance is listed and elaborated upon in meticulous detail; this class, with the allocation of abilities and enhancements showcased in the file above, incorporates a maelstrom of abilities to debilitate and dismember anything unfortunate enough to stand in your hitbox, with an arsenal of primary and emergency CC (crowd-control) utilities to ensure that whatever you are attacking is too overcome to fight back. This build specializes in raw damage, with a truly scary amount of helpless amplification - while honing its ability to bring mobs to a helpless state. Numerous videos of the monk's performance in reaper are shown, and any questions/concerns are welcome!

Have you created a falconry version of this build yet?

[DrawingGuy]

Falconry is indeed the way to go for Monks now - especially for a DC build like I am. Unfortunately much of what you need is deep in the tree, forcing heavy investment. Though with the nerf to Henshin, and Ninja Spy not gaining too much advantage beyond a 12 AP dip (especially as No Mercy is overlapped anyways), this can be afforded.

As a pure Monk handwrap user, you want the 41 AP spend in Shintao. To get the DC advantage along with the WIS to attack/damage, you need a minimum of 21 into Falconry. This means 62 AP is locked, with 18 to play with.

This 18 is where decisions get tough:

I find two Ki Strikes to be very important. Knock on the Sky is 10% damage reduction, and Unbalancing Strike gives you Sneak Attack damage when you have aggro. Both are very important if you are the Monk tank as they are components of survival and DPS. Investing 11-12 AP into Ninja Spy will net me that along with dodge cap bonus for more survival and Shadow Veil for 15% more incorporeal (or 25% if you don't have a Ghostly item on). However, beyond survival boosts, Ninja Spy lost its second main reason for investment: we no longer need the DEX to hit/damage. With half the reason gone, I find myself leaning towards dumping Ninja Spy and debating between Unbalancing for SA damage and Knock for 10% damage reduction. If you run Ethereal, Unbalancing is clearly better, but Falconry provides some more reasons to go Astral Plane.

Going even deeper into Falconry provides several advantages. First is that Deadly Instinct (your DC move) is limited use, so you really want that at 2 or 3. No Mercy is a large DPS increase for trash killing, especially on a class that is quite good at CC. The cores, while nothing to write home about, are still great AP spends as they give +3 MP, PRR, and MRR for only 1 AP. Bird attacks are needed for Deadly Instinct maintenance, and have the potential to be additional CC. In short, you can quite easily spend your extra points in it.

There are, of course, still other spends I like:

- Aasimar cores and T5 bond -- 4+ AP depending on amount of racial PLs
- Vistani offers a cheap 25% neg resist along with PRR and MRR. Undead Favored Enemy stacks with Animal Favored Enemy for +4 to both. A little more can net you Haste Boost, Deflect Arrows, and Double Strike (including one of the few ways to increase offhand Doublestrike) -- 3-11 AP
- Henshin first core for 3 MP and PRR is still a good deal for 1AP, and Animal Stance is also worth the 2 AP -- 1-3 AP


Personally, this is how I plan on spending my AP:

41 Shintao
31 Falconry
4 Aasimar
3 Vistani
1 Henshin


The other debate that I mentioned is Ethereal or Astral Scion. Ethereal is by far the biggest DPS increase, but by going Astral you are not only boosting your Quivering Palm that needs every boost it can get, but your Falconry moves as well as assassination sources are harder to fit and rarer. Two more Helpless CCs is respectable, though albeit currently clunky due to bird attack delay. Really I think this will boil down to personal choice/situation: Is CC generally handled by casters in your party anyways? Ethereal will serve you better. Do you tend to just auto-attack anyways? Ethereal serves you better. You find yourself as the main form of CC in the party? That extra CC as well as more reliable QP can be more important, making Astral more worthwhile.

I currently don't have static parties, and often solo/pug, so I'll probably be taking Astral. Also not needing to invest in Hide is nice, though I'll just be wanting to fit Assassinate in its place if I can. We'll see if that lasts, or if the near double damage advantage of Ethereal over Astral (the math varies hugely depending on gear) calls me too hard. But I do like QP spam a lot, and it's fun when it is basically no-fail... wah

[unbongwah]

41 Shintao
31 Falconry
4 Aasimar
3 Vistani
1 Henshin

I haven't unlocked Falconry yet, but I was thinking 41 Shintao / 28 Falconry / 11 Ninja. Racial APs can go towards whatever. Shadow Veil is too good to pass up IMO and you also pick up Melee Power Boost along the way. Deadly Instinct + No Mercy + Expose Weakness + Coordinated Strike is 28 APs; if the latter proves less than useful due to the long CD, you can always shift that AP into Henshin.

[DrawingGuy]

In short, I can boil the decision of that 11 AP down to this:

Ignoring Ninja Spy, the 11 AP gains:
+ 1 WIS
+ 6 MP
+ 9 PRR
+ 6 MRR
+ 25% Neg Absorb
+ Ascendant Bond for either 10 MP + Vuln stacking + Fear Immunity or 10% HP + 3 saves + 10 PRR + 10 MRR
+ Divine Purpose or 40 Heal amp (or some mix thereof)

Getting Ninja Spy, you gain:
+ Short Sword useage
+ Extra shuri throw chance based on DEX
+ 1d6 SA
+ Shadow Veil for 15% more Incorporeal (or 25% if you don't slot ghostly)
+ Ki Strike (which I discuss earlier)
+ 2 dodge cap + 2 concentration + 2 Reflex or 20 MP action boost

For those that are not Aasimar, I'd certainly go the Ninja Spy route. For those that are Aasimar and have enough past lives for the cores but not enough for a cheap Ascendant Bond, again Ninja Spy. For those that are Aasimar, but not enough past lives for cores, I'd invest in the cores. A zero racial PL toon could do my split and either drop 3 AP off Falconry if the WIS isn't needed to be made even, or off Vistani. Or for players that do have all the past lives, which is the premise of this thread and is what the OP has, which again I favor my split. But, again, that can be seen as opinion. I've always been an advocate of Shadow Veil and the 11/12 Ninja Spy spend - I've been locked onto it for years, and wouldn't consider anyone wrong to continue to do so.


The 1 AP for a cleave/aoe blind/aoe 50% fort drop is indeed on a poor timer, though still nice as one of the opening moves. I'd definitely keep it on a 31 AP spend, but in a Ninja Spy spend, that goes against another tier of MP boost or dodge cap or Henshin core... though I'd probably drop one point off Deadly Instinct before I'd drop Coordinated Strike. I wouldn't go down to 1 point on DI as you can definitely get screwed by RNG with resets on a 30s timer, but should be pretty safe on a 1m timer. Though I will note that either the tool tip is wrong, or the move currently has lower than what it should DC, as it currently does not show Assassination bonuses in the tool tip DC. Haven't tested for real world DC though.

[Paisheng]

I haven't unlocked Falconry yet, but I was thinking 41 Shintao / 28 Falconry / 11 Ninja. Racial APs can go towards whatever. Shadow Veil is too good to pass up IMO and you also pick up Melee Power Boost along the way. Deadly Instinct + No Mercy + Expose Weakness + Coordinated Strike is 28 APs; if the latter proves less than useful due to the long CD, you can always shift that AP into Henshin.

I am enjoying this thread and picking up some good pointers on the different builds -- so thanks to all contributing.

However with the falconry tree, while there is still excellent viability doing a dex monk and utilizing much of the ninja tree, I think the strongest build for handwraps now lies in a wisdom based monk along with the falcronry tree. Here we achieve more DPS while clearly being able to max dcs for all the CC and QP -- especially with Deadly Instincts which not only boosts dc but can greatly increase damage.

Yes the investment in Falcronry is huge, as it should be I believe. I think the devs did right by making attainment more difficult than the dex monk.

Some notes from my experience in the tree.

Levels 1-4 are weaker as I invest 20 into wisdom with Aasimar and 15 dex and rest in Constitution. So I am a "weak" strength monk for these 4 levels. This is not too much of a problem (I can solo r4 through these levels) with my maxed out monk toon. I still prefer to get the haste boost out of vistani at level 2 and find this better dps than going to early with Falconry. I could get wisdom damage by level 3 but found not as effective as the haste. This all pays off then at level 5.

Level 5 and forward I build pretty much exclusively in falconry with the exception at 6 I will put 4 points to Aasimar to attain Ascendant Bond.

At level 12 I surprised myself by not switching over to Shintao tree and getting tier 5 enhancements. I found the tier 5 falconry a worthwhile trade off and quite fun. You get a 5xdmg that also heals you well with good heal amp, 10 melee power, a reliable instant death (yes on a slow timer) and of course maintain the tier 4 deadly instincts, coordinated strikes etc. I do not use the tier 2 and 3 bird strikes as these are too clunky and slow, and coordinated strikes is sufficient to reset Deadly Instincts if used properly at the beginning of most fights.

Finally at level 18 will I switch to a Shintao monk -- still maintaining my deadly instincts in falconry and haste in vistani.

At level 20 I can reclaim the 8 points in vistani as the LD destiny provides haste boost. I tried once to pull points for ninja core 3 incorporeality but felt I was losing some of the power and flavor of coordinated strikes, etc. in the falconry tree. So while I tr'd and did not do too many quests yet in Epics with falconry I am nonetheless leaning to dropping it altogether and investing 42 Shintao 4 in Aasimar (possibly 6 for the extra heal amp) and 31 in falconry -- leaving me a few points (3) to randomly play with such as henshin or aasimar like noted for the extra heal amp).

Overall I am pleased that falconry gives some new flavor to monks and making them one of the best hand wrap builds and especially for making Quivering Palm much more viable in high reaper with the Deadly Instincts boost (with a high wisdom -- say around 86 or so -- one is talking about a +20 to the dc. No longer one has to invest points into intel and intel gear to achieve probably 1/2 that bonus on the know the angles enhancment. So approximating a +10 better dc than what was achievable before.

This will lead us to talking about all the new gear opportunities available as one does not have to stretch it to cover dexterity and intelligence like we once did. Breath of relief.

Cheers to the devs along with my fellow monk lovers.

[DrawingGuy]

The Ninja Spy investment is not for the DEX to attack/damage as WIS would be main stat and you would be taking the WIS options from the Falconry tree. If you look at my breakdown, you can see plenty of reason to put points into Ninja Spy beyond the DEX. However losing that reason is indeed a big part of why I forgo it in my suggested splits.

I do question the dropping of tier 2 and 3 bird attacks. Yes, they are indeed too clunky - the bird should attack at the start of your attack rather than after, and I hope they change that - but they are CC and resets. I'll need to have some playtime before I know if they're too clunky in active play (after all, that is why I don't bother with Kukan-Do), but I find it interesting you find a 1 minute timer skill as sufficient, as it could quite easily have an unlucky run that runs your charges out. Though it's true you should be generally fine. The other concern is the maintenance of Expose Weakness. If you can maintain both Expose Weakness and Deadly Instincts with just Coordinated Strikes, it definitely puts a capper on the other two until they are made less clunky.

For now, I'll reserve my suggestions to what I provided until I have some real testing under my belt.

[Paisheng]

Drawing Guy - your insights are always stellar and I think we are mainly in agreement -- or will be -- once you experience the clunkiness of the early bird attacks (including have to select a target for it to go off vs just being in proximity and firing off the clickie like on Coordinated Strikes.

Yes I agree ninja tree has other viable options besides dex attack/dmg particularly core 3. However it does mean sacrificing some benefits of tier four from Falconry and/or the Aasimar final buff on hp or melee power, etc.

I am not a huge proponent of Exposed Weakness as it is just 10 secs -- so it is true that you cannot maintain that with coordinated strikes (10 secs of every minute). However you can maintain Deadly Strikes as I believe from experience the Coordinated strikes resets some where between 20%-33% of the time. Thus pretty guaranteed by odds every 3-5 clicks (minutes) you can reset Deadly on average. This has always carried me at least to the next shrine. Even on the conservative side that gives you about 14 minutes of deadly strike between shrines. Of course if it is already off and you are not fighting you can save time to not click it til the next fight starts.

But if you want to maintain almost 30 secs of that minute or so with the fort reduction then the other bird attacks are handy to have available. Of course as you know all bird timers go off for 4 1/2 seconds so there will be actually be like 30 secs of 70 seconds. I like leading with the coordinated strikes which sets of the blindess, tearing effect and 10 secs of fort -- hold for the bird -- and then whirlwind the mob. Holding for the 2 secs or so for the bird to go off is the most difficult part. I tend to whirlwind to quickly .....but that is clearly a personal issue .

On whole the Devs have made us make hard choices -- even Henshin tree had some good lower fruit -- but I am liking the expression of flavor in falconry and finding the give/take from other trees an equitable compensation in terms of effects both defensibly and offensively.