Balancing Spell DCs for Reaper

[slarden]

At the end of the day... the DCs and Spell Pen available to players will continue to increase. What I'm suggesting level sets Reaper mode once-and-for-all despite whatever other power creep is introduced into the game. Any old content you run on R10 will feel similar to a DC caster with "no-fail" DCs as the newest content where the caster has achieved the same thing. The newer quests will have mob stats inflated for the new numbers and so the traditional DC and Spell Pen checks will serve as the gatekeeper for a time... but again... the powercreep train will keep on a chugging along and eventually the same thing will happen to Reaper as happened with Hard and Elite.

Do you not understand monsters already get significant save boosts in R10? Charms and CC are easier to land than necromancy but also have reduced durations.

[karatemack]

Do you not understand monsters already get significant save boosts in R10? Charms and CC are easier to land than necromancy but also have reduced durations.

Yes, and eventually those will be surpassed by power creep. Again, what is the reasonable balance?

Should there be "no fail" DCs? If not... where should it cap out? 60% chance of success? 70? 80?

[Tilomere]

If the mob has X% damage reduction from ranged, instant kill and charm spells should be saved against at a minimum of X% of the time. Cut the mana cost by X% as well. Have negative level and stat damage be subject to the same X% reduction. Then you can drop epic ward. Boom, everyone is working off the same X% penalty in a simpler, easier to understand system that is continuous from 1-30.

How is it helpful for build variety or game balance when a bow gets reduced 75% and charms and instant kills are reduced 0%?


---------------------------------------------

How about we make it so that mobs have a 50% chance to take 0 damage every time you hit them. Or heals to fail 50% of the time.

Sold!

The reaper damage and self healing penalties are way worse than this ... for melee, ranged, dps casters, and healers.

[J1NG]

Yes, and eventually those will be surpassed by power creep. Again, what is the reasonable balance?

Should there be "no fail" DCs? If not... where should it cap out? 60% chance of success? 70? 80?

Should be whatever it is now. Because Reaper scales with content it is being run in. So if the base content is sufficiently tough (through design, not simply inflated numbers), then R1 alone will be tough, much less R10. It's just our devs haven't tried to make it more interesting through design is all.

So no change necessary.

Because otherwise you simply open up another can of worms, where my con dumped, wis based wizard will be doing the same damage or CC as a Triple Completionist in R10. All in the name of "balance". Because why shouldn't my character be able to contribute at R10? Just because you spent hundreds if not thousands of hours in game developing your character, shouldn't make it more effective vs my newly created and poorly designed character. "Balance" requires it goes both ways after all.

J1NG

[slarden]

Yes, and eventually those will be surpassed by power creep. Again, what is the reasonable balance?

Should there be "no fail" DCs? If not... where should it cap out? 60% chance of success? 70? 80?

Why don't you show us how your necromancy DCs are working in 10 skull Fresh-Baked Dreams. I don't think you are going to be anywhere near 100%.

As for power creep, sure power creep has always made older content easier for all builds. New content has always been introduced that is more difficult than the last content as well. That is the way it works in this game.

Overall I think you are trying to fix a 10 skull problem that doesn't exist.

[karatemack]

Overall I think you are trying to fix a 10 skull problem that doesn't exist.

No, I was thinking about all of the Reaper difficulties. You seem content to only discuss Reaper 10. I hope one day you make it there.

Also, your lack of discussion around the DC mechanic in general is telling. Would be interested to hear your thought though...

[slarden]

No, I was thinking about all of the Reaper difficulties. You seem content to only discuss Reaper 10. I hope one day you make it there.

Also, your lack of discussion around the DC mechanic in general is telling. Would be interested to hear your thought though...

You hope one day I make it there lol. I've run well over 100 reaper 10 quests and while that isn't my focus and many have run much more than me, I know enough about 10 skull to debunk your 100% success theory. The reason they added reaper difficulty is for people that surpassed elite and there are 10 skulls levels of reaper,

As I said I think the mechanic itself is fine. It's one of the few builds in the game that requires significant effort to build and play it properly. It would be shame if that got taken away with your suggestions. They already ruined assassin.

For me I prefer 3ish skull and sometimes push it higher and sometimes join a 10 skull run. Excluding champs and reapers with immunities, I am still not 100% in Ravenloft within 1 of the theoretical max DC. My DCs works really and the build is very effective 3 skulll, but even at 3 skull on a highly optimized casting character my spell pen and DC fails. That is before you count the reapers and champs.

If SSG thinks it's too powerful they can put more death immune, enchantment immune, illusion immune creatures in the game. I haven't seen any compelling reason to make a change - it seems like a few people that want casters nerfed for reasons.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Should be whatever it is now. Because Reaper scales with content it is being run in. So if the base content is sufficiently tough (through design, not simply inflated numbers), then R1 alone will be tough, much less R10. It's just our devs haven't tried to make it more interesting through design is all.

So no change necessary.

Because otherwise you simply open up another can of worms, where my con dumped, wis based wizard will be doing the same damage or CC as a Triple Completionist in R10. All in the name of "balance". Because why shouldn't my character be able to contribute at R10? Just because you spent hundreds if not thousands of hours in game developing your character, shouldn't make it more effective vs my newly created and poorly designed character. "Balance" requires it goes both ways after all.

J1NG

+1 right on. This whole discussion is about how you can hamstring skilled players to make the game more even across the board for players, no matter their skill, so that everyone can participate in content. What does it matter if you have a min/maxxed caster that you've spent 2 years getting PLs and gear on? You're gonna face mobs that have an auto 50% save chance.

[karatemack]

+1 right on. This whole discussion is about how you can hamstring skilled players to make the game more even across the board for players, no matter their skill, so that everyone can participate in content. What does it matter if you have a min/maxxed caster that you've spent 2 years getting PLs and gear on? You're gonna face mobs that have an auto 50% save chance.

The power creep from other sources have outpaced the DCs you gained from PLs. Spell Pen is on it's way right behind there too. You still haven't answered my question. Should DCs be balanced so that a D20 roll matters? Should that be a long-term goal? Forget what I'm suggesting... just wondering what your thoughts are on DC casting in general.

Again, you miss the point. It's becoming more and more evident that that's on purpose. Those with a DC lower than yours will still have less of a % chance to land the spell. The normal DC and Spell Pen checks still apply. The only thing this would change is that the intended impact of the roll of a D20 would remain (in Reaper) despite additional layers of powercreep which are added in the future.

I'm sorry your ability to run R10 is so easily threatened (and you do seem really sensitive about this). Perhaps you need to reconsider putting yourself in the "skilled players" group. This is why they should have never implemented nanny Reaper mode. Then the snowflakes wouldn't complain when their training wheels come off. (we are still doing hyperbole, right?)

[fmalfeas]

If the mob has X% damage reduction from ranged, instant kill and charm spells should be saved against at a minimum of X% of the time. Cut the mana cost by X% as well. Have negative level and stat damage be subject to the same X% reduction. Then you can drop epic ward. Boom, everyone is working off the same X% penalty in a simpler, easier to understand system that is continuous from 1-30.

How is it helpful for build variety or game balance when a bow gets reduced 75% and charms and instant kills are reduced 0%?


---------------------------------------------




Sold!

The reaper damage and self healing penalties are way worse than this ... for melee, ranged, dps casters, and healers.

Or that 80 SP nuke not only has to deal with bloated saves, the damage is reduced anyway on mobs with even more HP.

Build diversity? Evoker isn't exactly high on the list of options, even though in tabletop, it's /the/ most sought after for combat. I've done Evoker Archmage several times, always hoping for it to be better than last time, and it never is. Anything over H or EH becomes nothing but a SP sink where contribution is **** due to spells that don't scale well, and bloated HP. *glares at the giant in Tracker's Trap*

[slarden]

The power creep from other sources have outpaced the DCs you gained from PLs. Spell Pen is on it's way right behind there too. You still haven't answered my question. Should DCs be balanced so that a D20 roll matters? Should that be a long-term goal? Forget what I'm suggesting... just wondering what your thoughts are on DC casting in general.

Again, you miss the point. It's becoming more and more evident that that's on purpose. Those with a DC lower than yours will still have less of a % chance to land the spell. The normal DC and Spell Pen checks still apply. The only thing this would change is that the intended impact of the roll of a D20 would remain (in Reaper) despite additional layers of powercreep which are added in the future.

Your assumption that D20 roll doesn't matter is what is false here in a game with 4 basic difficulties and 10 reaper skull levels. Obviously the more accomplished the player the more difficulties where they are highly effective. Your proposal would make the game worse in my opinion.

I'm sorry your ability to run R10 is so easily threatened (and you do seem really sensitive about this).

My assessment is comments like this indicate emotions are impacting your posts much more than the person you are commenting on.

Perhaps you need to reconsider putting yourself in the "skilled players" group.

Do comments like this make you feel better?

Then the snowflakes wouldn't complain when their training wheels come off. (we are still doing hyperbole, right?)

You are asserting there is a problem with DC casting but you've brought absolutely no proof. What % a 105 necro DC works at various skull levels in specific quests for example. You keep referring to this no-fail situation, yet you can't define what DC makes you no-fail in what content and what skull levels. Clearly your assertion is false at 10 skull. They implemented reapers and champions with immunities. They can implement more things like this if they view it as a problem, but you still haven't proven there is an actual problem. You just want casting nerfed.

[PermaBanned]

Should DCs be balanced so that a D20 roll matters? Should that be a long-term goal?

No they should not, nor should it be a long term goal. They have ballooned and bloated well past relevance of the D20. It's unfortunate, but it's damage done & water under the bridge. I'm much more concerned with and interested in their maintaining D&D feel and flavor than paper rules.

(Adherence to both flavor & rules would've been ideal, but put in a position to choose... flavor wins.)

[Tilomere]

Any veteran that runs mid to high skulls has the gear, past lives, and game knowledge to learn and make use of any ability in the game. But if they pick certain ones, they get nerfed up to 90%. If they pick others, they don't get nerfed at all.

Is that really a choice? Your defending that position? Really?

[noinfo]

You are asserting there is a problem with DC casting but you've brought absolutely no proof. What % a 105 necro DC works at various skull levels in specific quests for example. You keep referring to this no-fail situation, yet you can't define what DC makes you no-fail in what content and what skull levels. Clearly your assertion is false at 10 skull. They implemented reapers and champions with immunities. They can implement more things like this if they view it as a problem, but you still haven't proven there is an actual problem. You just want casting nerfed.

And here is the underlying issue.

Caster CD were nerfed ages ago particulary in the range of instakill based spells.
I can say that my wizard has no room to improve his dc's gear or past lifes and while he is extremely effective in any reaper especially 10 skulls I don't have the sense of 100 or 95% on all mobs at all and would question how his TR main is achieving these no fails all the time and what DC's he is achieving.

[noinfo]

Open door, see room full of mobs > cast mass suggestion to get stuff to tank for you, then necro DC cast.

Open door, see room full of mobs + champions > cast mass suggestion to get stuff to tank for you, then necro DC cast.

Open door, see room full of mobs + champions + reapers > cast mass suggestion to get stuff to tank for you, then necro DC cast.

"Tactics"

Lolz the reaper caster builds don't even bother calculating DCs for anything but enchantment and necro.

There are no tactics. There are no 8 school casters picking through spells to find the right one to target the weak save. That's all BS. No one bothers checking to see what type of champion it is. If it is immune to mass suggestion, necro will kill it 95% of the time, if the charmed mobs don't kill it first.

Cause charms last a long time in level 30+ reapers.
And of course there are the mobs that are mind immune or mob diversity let alone champs

I would love to see the application of those tactics and how often a ranged mob would just turn and 1 shot you.

[Tilomere]

I would love to see the application of those "tactics."

I'm doing racials, so here is my character on live just experimenting while developing what is quite literally a godly racial build:



"Tactics"

I'm mid build change, and have to recraft some armor, but here it is. Instead of mass charm, Tilo only has single target. Instead of necro, Tilo has turn undead - mighty turning for AoE instant killing undead, and holy retribution for AoE instant killing the living, constructs, and undead missed by turn. Instead of mass hold, Tilo only has command SLA.

Paladins don't get necro or mass spells, so you sorta have to make do with what fits. Tilo does however have a Holy Sword of Shadows, ridiculous saves, UMD with W&S Mastery, HAMP, PRR, MRR, HP, healing, AC, resists, spell points, and neg level immunity. Or will have it all again once I craft stuffs. And a fair strength if I felt like hitting divine might and actually swinging for damage. But that's just a silly idea even on a paladin.

It's not tactics, it's strategy. Hit A, then hit B. Tactics is hitting C, D, E, or F and changing up the game plan on the fly. The mass hold, mass suggestion/charm, and tentacles spells prevent tactics. They hit so many targets there isn't enough active mobs left to make you need to decide quickly if you are going to hit C, D, E, or F on the fly. Even repeat use of a single charm spell in heroics is all you need to reduce enough active mobs so you don't need tactics. The remaining mobs would have to charge the player and not fight it out as you watch to create a situation that required tactics.

Tilo can clear reaper dungeons playing with abilities from 1 level of warlock that would destroy Tilo playing instead with the 14 levels of paladin. That's not balance.

But, since I'm taking advantage of it, it's not like I care if it ever gets balanced. I'm just here to point it out. It seems DC caster players forget sometimes that melee suck in reaper relative to casters or ranged.

[noinfo]

I'm doing racials, so here is my character on live just experimenting while developing what is quite literally a godly racial build:



"Tactics"

I'm mid build change, and have to recraft some armor, but here it is. Instead of mass charm, Tilo only has single target. Instead of necro, Tilo has turn undead - mighty turning for AoE instant killing undead, and holy retribution for AoE instant killing the living, constructs, and undead missed by turn. Instead of mass hold, Tilo only has command SLA.

Paladins don't get necro or mass spells, so you sorta have to make do with what fits. Tilo does however have a Holy Sword of Shadows, ridiculous saves, UMD with W&S Mastery, HAMP, PRR, MRR, HP, healing, AC, resists, spell points, and neg level immunity. Or will have it all again once I craft stuffs. And a fair strength if I felt like hitting divine might and actually swinging for damage. But that's just a silly idea even on a paladin.

It's not tactics, it's strategy. Hit A, then hit B. Tactics is hitting C, D, E, or F and changing up the game plan on the fly. The mass hold, mass suggestion/charm, and tentacles spells prevent tactics. They hit so many targets there isn't enough active mobs left to make you need to decide quickly if you are going to hit C, D, E, or F on the fly. Even repeat use of a single charm spell in heroics is all you need to reduce enough active mobs so you don't need tactics.

Tilo can clear reaper dungeons playing with abilities from 1 level of warlock that would destroy Tilo playing instead with the 14 levels of paladin. That's not balance.

But, since I'm taking advantage of it, it's not like I care if it ever gets balanced. I'm just here to point it out. It seems DC caster players forget sometimes that melee suck in reaper relative to casters or ranged.

Sorry have not read your post, I just looked at 3 skulls on heroic. Come back later.

[Wizza]

Sorry have not read your post, I just looked at 3 skulls on heroic. Come back later.

Majority of the people asking for these changes are people who either have never played Reaper, or play low skulls TR 24/7.

[slarden]

Sorry have not read your post, I just looked at 3 skulls on heroic. Come back later.

Yes this is exactly it and even in heroic content it depends what you are running and tilo is running an easy quest targeting will save which is typically the lowest save on average - I believe by design. If you are running newer heroic content some of that is quite a bit harder and monster stats are much stronger.

So the entire argument of the OP and others is wrong. Because when they talk about D20 not mattering, it does and always has. eGH is an example where it didn't matter in some quests because you could not bypass many saves in that chain so you had to respec for shiradi and spam mm and cm to get nerve venom procs.

The only thing that is worth looking at is whether charmed enemies should have the same penalties all allies have, but I don't even see that as being a big priority and the downside of such a change is it would kill charms in reaper entirely.

And I don't mean to criticize Tilomire with this comment, but his build strategy won't work at level 30 in legendary quests and the build would be a burden to the party as he went up skull levels. I am skeptical the build would work well in newer heroic content, but that is just speculation.

There are many builds that work for 3 skull heroic leveling. For 3 skull heroic, it's generally quicker to blast through the quest with straight up power vs. using 10 skull tactics like enlarged charms and safe spots.

In the history of this game turn undead has always been godly at heroic levels and will saves have always been easy to hit. This is not a news flash.

[karatemack]

I can say that my wizard has no room to improve his dc's gear or past lifes and while he is extremely effective in any reaper especially 10 skulls I don't have the sense of 100 or 95% on all mobs at all and would question how his TR main is achieving these no fails all the time and what DC's he is achieving.

This is a strawman position I didn't argue for. Go back and re-read the OP and let me know where I did and I will correct it.

You are asserting there is a problem with DC casting but you've brought absolutely no proof. What % a 105 necro DC works at various skull levels in specific quests for example. You keep referring to this no-fail situation, yet you can't define what DC makes you no-fail in what content and what skull levels. Clearly your assertion is false at 10 skull. They implemented reapers and champions with immunities. They can implement more things like this if they view it as a problem, but you still haven't proven there is an actual problem. You just want casting nerfed.

Again, my view is R1-R10. You are fixated on R10 exclusively. Define the range you like, level set it there.

Power creep will continue to get introduced into the game. It doesn't matter what the % effectiveness is at this moment... over time they will eventually become no fail and we will wind up needing a new ultra challenge mode. You may be happy with blanket immunities as a "solution" to this, but many are not and have asked for better.