Summons Rant

[Elvejon]

I am sure some people feel the way I do, and Most do not for good reason. But this is something I want to get off my chest. I really want summons to be good.

Almost any spell is viable in some way, rather it be glitter dust or polar ray, spells carry on to higher levels with higher dc's implemented in them so they they don't stay useless. Arguably, the stat buff spells even have their uses until you get a dedicated item for their respectable stats.

Then we see Summon Monster Spell. I guarantee this is by far the most useless spell in the game. Do not confuse this us completely useless; but it definitely takes last place in what spells to put you in spell slots.

I have been on DDO since 2006, on and off. And no point throughout DDO's history has summons been a viable part of the game. It's even shunned by the community because the AI will mess up runs sometimes. (EDIT: There was the Great Dense Earth Elemental incident, but that was a bug that got fixed)
Even CHARM has more uses even with the AI problems, especially on Reaper 10 now. I am glad Charm finally has a place to help now, but sad summons still remain dirt poor excuses as spells.

Let me give a run down on Summon Monster.
At best, heroics is the only time you'll use it. The only good one is Earth Elemental solely because he has CC to actually help. The epic summons (Although I haven't tried the dryad yet) are almost unplayable themselves, EVEN with the feats that buff them. And they are pretty much only good on hard or lower, maybe elite, and possibly on reaper but I doubt it.

Even if you get Argument Summoning, Buff them with the stat spells, make them as hardy and tanky as possible they still fall flat completely that you might as well cast a damage spell of almost any kind with a better feat.
Now don't get more wrong about pets. the Skeleton Knight, maybe the defender and maybe the wolf are almost close to viability but not quite there. I wish the pet mechanics or something at least similar to Summon Monster would happen.

Rather that thing be Conjuration Bonus increase their Challenge Rating, Let the caster level decide same level for monster, or even allowing it take the pet slot completely would make this spell bearable.

And don't get me started on the Grand Summoner Epic Feat. Idk who decided to not only make that feat untwistable, but make it virtually the same as argument summon with a couple more buffs would make it worth it that high is beyond me; summons continue to be nigh worthless but to make it a tad bit stronger you need to be a magi.

Their is so much potential in the spell, like if I could summon a scorpion that inflicts con damage, need a pocket healer like the Eladrin Bralani, Need the single target earth grab? Earth ele. Need a badass demon warrior with a crossbow? Orthon. Want a swinging club wielded by the fiendish troll himself, at your level?; or maybe change it up and instead of slowly healing troll, you want the orge that gives itself haste and stuns itself? And you could add more to the summon list by adding a real beholder to counter casters.

I see so much potential in summon monster, but I feel it will never be implemented. I read somewhere that the devs were thinking about changing it further, but I do not see the point if you don't implement any Iota of leveling purpose, or purpose to the summon itself. I hate to see a new style of play being ignored, and wanted by some players.

That's it for my rant, I know some people will say why bother with summons in begin with, or something along those lines. It's more that it fun seeing a creature you summon help you in combat in some way. I had a PM wiz that Melee'd a lot and being next to the skele bro while i heal him with my aura and him doing like 100 possible double strike damage was cool. I only wish I had more options to it and a spell that the dev's themselves worked on not gone to waste like it has.

[thedip]

The elder dryad is very nice, it gives out quite good damage and is resilient as well - casting a nice long lasting death ward in addition to healing isn't too shabby either.

Summons are not useless by any stretch of the imagination. A lot of mobs will charge straight for the summoned creature and rail on it - even after it is long dead. This gives the caster plenty of time to do what he/she wants.

As a dps spell it isn't necessarily great, although a celestial dog at low level is an excellent addition to any party - given the choice between a 1st level magic missile and a celestial dog - I'll take the dog anytime.

[Tianie]

I agree, I would love to see work on summons/pets. I would even like a new tree/feats, that everyone gets for free, or as a pastlife reward. To add more flavor to the game.

[Memnir]

It would be nice - but I almost feel like terrible summons are a DDO tradition at this point.



That said, it really would be nice.

[Elvejon]

It would be nice - but I almost feel like terrible summons are a DDO tradition at this point.

Haha. After 12 years yeah id say so.

[Drelak]

I use the lvl 10 scarecrow on EN. It doesn't really do damage, but survives quite long.
That is because it has CR 10. My summoned hezrou had lover CR.

Please at least consider increasing summon CR:s.

[Mofus]

Agreed, can we look into this when doing the Druid pass, as they have summon spells like the rest of the casters in game.

[AbyssalMage]

The vocal minority (which tends to get their way) can't handle an NPC being better than a player (which is what would need to happen because of poor AI). I've played enough MMO's and read even more forums to know that Summons in any game are "Dead on Arrival." Even when developers finally have enough courage to finally make a NPC summon useful, it never lasts long because of the whining, complaining, and outright attacks by this group of people.

There was talk about beefing up Summons back during U14, U15, or U16 (Forget which one specifically, but it was in conjunction with Druid and Primal Sphere that "buffed" summons) and they mentioned something on a podcast or live stream. The forums went wild that weekend and for the next week. Most people were hopeful that a change would have been put in place yet it never came to pass. Simply put, it will (probably) never happen until someone dares to "go against the grain."

[Kriogen]

It can be done. But even when devs do it, pets viable, very quickly they are forced to nerf them to the point that(pets) are pointless.

Pets will never be 100% viable, because if they would be, people would roll "Minion Master" and then go AFK farm quests, even raids. Well, if pets would be viable, then they must also be good for Boss Fight. But if this is the case, them "Minion Master" can call up pets, let pets attack Boss, and then hide somewhere where Boss can't hit you. As far as I know, thats a 'sploit. If you can hurt Boss, Boss must be able to hurt you back. If devs find out about this ... nerf bat time.

You can't have pets. They are either junk or 'sploit.

[FuzzyDuck81]

I like using summon monster 7 from the trinket in low levels on a TR, since they're pretty tough at that point, but otherwise I tend to use them more as a decoy than a significant force.

The epic dryad summon from primal avatar is pretty tasty though since she'll cast buffs including DW & healing spells (eg. regeneration, removes negs!) while not taking up a party slot like a hireling.

[Elvejon]

It can be done. But even when devs do it, pets viable, very quickly they are forced to nerf them to the point that(pets) are pointless.

Pets will never be 100% viable, because if they would be, people would roll "Minion Master" and then go AFK farm quests, even raids. Well, if pets would be viable, then they must also be good for Boss Fight. But if this is the case, them "Minion Master" can call up pets, let pets attack Boss, and then hide somewhere where Boss can't hit you. As far as I know, thats a 'sploit. If you can hurt Boss, Boss must be able to hurt you back. If devs find out about this ... nerf bat time.

You can't have pets. They are either junk or 'sploit.

I am conflicted because I agree and Disagree. I agree to the point that not one MMO has a single useful summon. I think WoW comes close.

I disagree that DDO will become and AFK farm when you become a minion master. First of all, as it is right now in the current state, to make your own monster powerful enough; that you summon, you sacrifice so much of your own power; and at most can have 2 (maybe 3-4 if you include hirelings and other things). Not only that, you actually have to move around and solve puzzles yourself still.

I personally think DDO has the greatest potential of creating a real minion master type trait. DDO is crazy enough to make it work. There are dungeons with enemies that dispel your link with your summon, so even if we had an option to summon a beholder, it has a chance to turn against you; and maybe with all the buffs you gave it.

Secondly, monster summons are fine as they are, but they arn't powerful enough to be worth it. What I was suggesting is make the summon monsters scalable in some way (and give greater options, like i could summon the level 1 dog and itll still be helpful in some way, rather it be given trip, improved trip or what). They will probably be not used just the same as always but if I want to summon a fiendish troll, I shouldn't see it die to a level 20 Kolbold because it's challenge rating just happened ot be dramatically higher. As a level 20 spellcaster with summons, and with arguments and conjuration focuses, i think I should have more options and be able to summon more powerful versions of the current summons.

To me that is a fair assessment, I never wanted them to be as powerful as players, I want them to be worth the summon if someone chooses to summon them. They will probably still be the most useless spells, but make it at least they can hold on their own for more then 3 seconds. and with all the buffing you can personally give them, they hold maybe 10 seconds and still do very little damage.

[fmalfeas]

I don't think it'd break things if pets were quite a lot better. EQ has really, really crude pet 'ai', and Magician and Necromancer have pets that can flat out tank non-raid bosses while doing serious damage, so long as they're healed with at least the level of care that a player tank would get. And Beastlord pets are almost as sturdy, and quite a lot more damaging.

As for 'must be able to hurt you back' tell that to every ranged character who climbs onto tiny ledges and rains death and misery from above.

[Whitering]

I did 3 druid lives purely so my cats would be better. You are wrong about who makes the best summons though, the best summons are from an Aura Cleric. Because they can actually live through Epic Elite (well, level 25 or so, after that, no). Like I can run EE Devil Assault on an Aura Cleric and my bears and cats will live. Also, at low level it makes Rod's wand that much better.

Now, summons and hirelings more or less suck other than for utility (DDoor etc...). Larafay at one point would happily hold the ramp in CCove challenge up to level 18 no problemo. But I don't know what changed, summons port to you all over the map now, no matter what they are told to do and where to stay put, and then when a mob does show up, it gets to whale on them for a few seconds before they know what is happening, and that's if they are set on Aggro.

So, the AI sucketh, that doesn't help. And then, yes, you have to invest your entire character into summoning to make them at all even close to viable for EH, and that is not worth it, the sole exception for me has been as an Aura Cleric, where they can kind of live in EE in the right circumstances.

[PsychoBlonde]

It can be done. But even when devs do it, pets viable, very quickly they are forced to nerf them to the point that(pets) are pointless.

Pets will never be 100% viable, because if they would be, people would roll "Minion Master" and then go AFK farm quests, even raids. Well, if pets would be viable, then they must also be good for Boss Fight. But if this is the case, them "Minion Master" can call up pets, let pets attack Boss, and then hide somewhere where Boss can't hit you. As far as I know, thats a 'sploit. If you can hurt Boss, Boss must be able to hurt you back. If devs find out about this ... nerf bat time.

You can't have pets. They are either junk or 'sploit.

Actually, Diablo 3 has a whole pet class (Witch Doctor) that works quite well and is well-balanced with the other classes.

The summons don't really need to be able to kill particularly effectively. They do need to be able to stay alive reasonably well in order to DO damage. Currently, ANYTHING one-shots most summons.

Frankly, if someone wants to sit around for half an hour healing a summon while it slowly chews a boss to death, more power to them. The idea that you could "go afk" while even vastly improved summons complete a quest for you is laughable in this game.

[PsychoBlonde]

I did 3 druid lives purely so my cats would be better. You are wrong about who makes the best summons though, the best summons are from an Aura Cleric. Because they can actually live through Epic Elite (well, level 25 or so, after that, no). Like I can run EE Devil Assault on an Aura Cleric and my bears and cats will live. Also, at low level it makes Rod's wand that much better.

Now, summons and hirelings more or less suck other than for utility (DDoor etc...). Larafay at one point would happily hold the ramp in CCove challenge up to level 18 no problemo. But I don't know what changed, summons port to you all over the map now, no matter what they are told to do and where to stay put, and then when a mob does show up, it gets to whale on them for a few seconds before they know what is happening, and that's if they are set on Aggro.

So, the AI sucketh, that doesn't help. And then, yes, you have to invest your entire character into summoning to make them at all even close to viable for EH, and that is not worth it, the sole exception for me has been as an Aura Cleric, where they can kind of live in EE in the right circumstances.

When summons Do Something, they revert immediately to "chase my owner" instead of going back to their hold position flag. It's REALLY annoying. So, if you tell them "pull this lever!" while they're holding position, they pull the ladder, revert, and run toward you.

[Lonnbeimnech]

If they let us summon multiple mobs that would be enough to make them good.

[Annex]

Random thoughts:

My Wizard (with 20 Epic Past Life Feats) uses summons often and yes, they die quickly and accomplish little. At higher difficulties they basically act as momentary speed bumps for enemy monsters.

My Avatar regularly sacrifices Fiendish Spiders to assassinate Orange Bosses. Summons make great distractions for assassins.

The Elder Dryad offers useful spells and definitely contributes on Epic Normal and Epic Hard difficulties. In my experience, combined with a healing hire, she rarely goes down.

I very much like the idea of a new companion Trait Tree, available to all classes, allowing all characters to summon a useful 'pet' a la the Artificer Iron Defender of Pale Master Skeletal Knight.

The monster summoning items from various events and festivals (Snow Elemental from Risia Ice Games, Air Elemental from Crystal Cove, Shadow Gargoyle from Night Revels, etc.), break the rule of summons offering little utility. They make low level quests very easy.

I would like Wizards to gain another Skill Tree allowing them to summon and use familiars. I refuse to use the Pale Master Trait Tree but would very much enjoy a familiar like an owl or pseudo dragon.

Use Magic Device and various items allow any class to call a summon so making them powerful would definitely skew difficulty. Yet, I very much like the idea of Druids and Wizards gaining useful summons. Perhaps those two classes merit more powerful versions of the Summon Monster spells. Greater Summon Monster would work like the existing spell but call forth a much more powerful being that takes up a party slot and contributes 0.5 dungeon scaling. Supreme Summon Monster would call forth a very powerful being, almost equivalent in power to a player character, but take up a party slot and contribute 1.0 to scaling. In this way, solo Druids and Wizards would gain the army of powerful companions they desire without goofing up group play and without making those two classes way more powerful than all the others.

[Elvejon]

Actually, Diablo 3 has a whole pet class (Witch Doctor) that works quite well and is well-balanced with the other classes.

The summons don't really need to be able to kill particularly effectively. They do need to be able to stay alive reasonably well in order to DO damage. Currently, ANYTHING one-shots most summons.

Frankly, if someone wants to sit around for half an hour healing a summon while it slowly chews a boss to death, more power to them. The idea that you could "go afk" while even vastly improved summons complete a quest for you is laughable in this game.

Glad someone understands what I am really getting at.

[mr420247]

If only summons only followed the same game mechanics as charms you would be in luck

[voxson5]

I am sure some people feel the way I do, and Most do not for good reason. But this is something I want to get off my chest. I really want summons to be good.

Almost any spell is viable in some way, rather it be glitter dust or polar ray, spells carry on to higher levels with higher dc's implemented in them so they they don't stay useless. Arguably, the stat buff spells even have their uses until you get a dedicated item for their respectable stats.

Then we see Summon Monster Spell. I guarantee this is by far the most useless spell in the game. Do not confuse this us completely useless; but it definitely takes last place in what spells to put you in spell slots.

I have been on DDO since 2006, on and off. And no point throughout DDO's history has summons been a viable part of the game. It's even shunned by the community because the AI will mess up runs sometimes. (EDIT: There was the Great Dense Earth Elemental incident, but that was a bug that got fixed)
Even CHARM has more uses even with the AI problems, especially on Reaper 10 now. I am glad Charm finally has a place to help now, but sad summons still remain dirt poor excuses as spells.

Let me give a run down on Summon Monster.
At best, heroics is the only time you'll use it. The only good one is Earth Elemental solely because he has CC to actually help. The epic summons (Although I haven't tried the dryad yet) are almost unplayable themselves, EVEN with the feats that buff them. And they are pretty much only good on hard or lower, maybe elite, and possibly on reaper but I doubt it.

Even if you get Argument Summoning, Buff them with the stat spells, make them as hardy and tanky as possible they still fall flat completely that you might as well cast a damage spell of almost any kind with a better feat.
Now don't get more wrong about pets. the Skeleton Knight, maybe the defender and maybe the wolf are almost close to viability but not quite there. I wish the pet mechanics or something at least similar to Summon Monster would happen.

Rather that thing be Conjuration Bonus increase their Challenge Rating, Let the caster level decide same level for monster, or even allowing it take the pet slot completely would make this spell bearable.

And don't get me started on the Grand Summoner Epic Feat. Idk who decided to not only make that feat untwistable, but make it virtually the same as argument summon with a couple more buffs would make it worth it that high is beyond me; summons continue to be nigh worthless but to make it a tad bit stronger you need to be a magi.

Their is so much potential in the spell, like if I could summon a scorpion that inflicts con damage, need a pocket healer like the Eladrin Bralani, Need the single target earth grab? Earth ele. Need a badass demon warrior with a crossbow? Orthon. Want a swinging club wielded by the fiendish troll himself, at your level?; or maybe change it up and instead of slowly healing troll, you want the orge that gives itself haste and stuns itself? And you could add more to the summon list by adding a real beholder to counter casters.

I see so much potential in summon monster, but I feel it will never be implemented. I read somewhere that the devs were thinking about changing it further, but I do not see the point if you don't implement any Iota of leveling purpose, or purpose to the summon itself. I hate to see a new style of play being ignored, and wanted by some players.

That's it for my rant, I know some people will say why bother with summons in begin with, or something along those lines. It's more that it fun seeing a creature you summon help you in combat in some way. I had a PM wiz that Melee'd a lot and being next to the skele bro while i heal him with my aura and him doing like 100 possible double strike damage was cool. I only wish I had more options to it and a spell that the dev's themselves worked on not gone to waste like it has.

Trying to brute force capability doesnt work, you need to think outside the box.

You've said you were around way back when, which means you were around when Ghoste was making short work of content with his shadowmage concept.

I still use summons per his teachings, to great effect.