Remove MRR Armor Caps

[Carpone]

Best way to kill punk uber monks?

This MRR issue is not limited to monks. Sorcerers and wizards are just as affected by it. SSG has repeatedly stated they are trying to make melee more viable compared to ranged.

[grandeibra]

This is a solution I have suggested in the past; and it is one I still support. MRR multiplier based on armor type.

Agreed. Seems a simple and reasonable solution.

This is a false statement. A character with 1000 HP can survive an additional 220 physical damage whenever they equip an item of 22 prr, regardless of what their current PRR is.

...it's not about me explaining to you how prr works...

Let me explain. A 200 dollar interest in one year on a 1,000 investment is great. A 200 dollar interest on a 1,000,000 investment sucks. Hence the 200 dollar has diminished returns, as in relative returns, which is what the term stems from and is used for in econ/production/banking etc. The nominal value/yield is not what is noticeable, the relative yield is. A toon that gets killed in 10 hits and wants to increase that to 11 needs a drastically higher increase in PRR if his base PRR already is 200 vs 0, hence diminished returns. Another example: If a toon can choose between say 10% ghostly or 20PRR the decision is greatly affected by whether he has a lot of PRR before or not. Your discussion about nominal increase being equal, while technically true, is not what the other poster was discussing, nor very interesting, nor the common definition of diminishing returns.

For true non-diminishing returns a formula like DamageEffect = IncomingDamage * 0.99^PRR would suffice. Not saying that is better, I actually like the diminishing returns formula that is used.

And yes you are completely right about the 1-PRR type formula being the inverse of diminishing returns (like the other poster said - not sure why you brought that up since he hadn't mentioned it). The dodge formula in DDO follows this type of return. a 1% increase in dodge for a geared monk with 45% dodge is almost twice as valuable as a 1% increase for a toon with 0. But the nominal increase is the same 1%, just as in the diminishing returns example of PRR.

[Kriogen]

This MRR issue is not limited to monks. Sorcerers and wizards are just as affected by it. SSG has repeatedly stated they are trying to make melee more viable compared to ranged.

Sorcerer and wizard can put on armor and/or shield. It's not free, you need to invest, but its doable. Sorc/wizzy can fix this MRR cap problem, if they want to.

Monks can't. To be centered, for many monks perks to work, you can not have any armor or shield.

Sorc/wizzy already have a solution, no change is required. Solution is there, you just have to use it.

So only monks are left ... it's about monks.

[grandeibra]

So only monks are left ... it's about monks.

Not true. Of course monks are most heavily affected but for example:

builds that have ways to get dodge over the cap for non-cloth armor take a loss when going armor, regardless of whether they are monks or not.

builds who use A Dance of Flowers for the juicy 1.5w effect, regardless of whether they are monks or not, lose that if they armor up.

There is no way for either to rectify the loss of abilities unless they stay in cloth armor. And yes I do have a non-monk toon that runs in cloth precisely for these two even though she is not a monk. There are other similar examples as well.

And btw - I am fine with lower MRR (or PRR or both) in cloth of some kind, be it hard capped (typically not a wise solution due to power creep over time) or some negative factor for lighter rather than heavier armor.

[SirValentine]

Yes it has, it cost more items slots to raise it (cost) vs a diminishing return...

Due to the way the game actually works, it certainly makes sense to look at it as diminishing returns, but there's no use arguing with the people saying the opposite. They have their close-minded view, where, if you apply weird math to imaginary things (often called something like "virtual hit points"), then, presto, it's not really diminishing. The fact that the imaginary things aren't what we're dealing with in-game seems to be beyond them, or willfully ignored by them. (It's especially funny if someone wants to claim PRR gives you non-diminishing virtual HP in a thread about magic damage.)

[unbongwah]

So only monks are left ... it's about monks.

FYI, Swashbucklers and pure Tempests need to wear light armor to gain full DPS benefits of their respective trees. They have higher MRR cap than pajama wearers, of course, but it's still an issue for them too.

Rogues are obviously geared towards light armor as well, but I don't think any of their DPS enhancements are based on armor; it has to do with their defensive benefits (i.e., Imp Evasion, Light Armor Mastery, etc.).

[Severlin]

MRR is intended to be an alternative to Evasion, and the highest levels are reserved for armor types that cannot obtain Evasion, even from a two level splash. We don't want players to be able to layer Evasion with high levels of MRR.

That said, one thing we have planned is to continue to add increases to Maximum MRR to caster sets and to the highest cores of caster trees.

Sev~

[Arkat]

MRR is intended to be an alternative to Evasion, and the highest levels are reserved for armor types that cannot obtain Evasion, even from a two level splash. We don't want players to be able to layer Evasion with high levels of MRR.

That said, one thing we have planned is to continue to add increases to Maximum MRR to caster sets and to the highest cores of caster trees.

Sev~

Is evasion not working against wisp lightning attacks in the Baba raid intended? How about evasion not working against the lightning strikes in RSO? How about other magic attacks (not counting magic missles, chain missles, etc.) that are not evadeable in certain high-end content?

If you want to make it hard for monks to avoid certain magic damage, fine. I get it. Just don't negate our class features to do it. Keep the MRR cap low but let us use our Evasion.

[Mindos]

MRR is intended to be an alternative to Evasion, and the highest levels are reserved for armor types that cannot obtain Evasion, even from a two level splash. We don't want players to be able to layer Evasion with high levels of MRR.

That said, one thing we have planned is to continue to add increases to Maximum MRR to caster sets and to the highest cores of caster trees.

Sev~

There you go people, there's your Producer's Letter! Y'all happy, now?

[Severlin]

FYI the Producer's Letter is on its way. It is in the review stage.

Sev~

[Dragavon]

MRR is intended to be an alternative to Evasion, and the highest levels are reserved for armor types that cannot obtain Evasion, even from a two level splash. We don't want players to be able to layer Evasion with high levels of MRR.

That said, one thing we have planned is to continue to add increases to Maximum MRR to caster sets and to the highest cores of caster trees.

Sev~

A while ago I asked Cordovan on the livestream about the bug with evasion not working on spells like cyclonic blast. His reply was that it was not a priority to fix, as so few mobs had it. Then come Ravenloft and all of a sudden lots of mobs have cyclonic blast.

Can you at least fix things that are not working with evasion as it should? And tell Cordovan to adjust his attitude a little, sometimes he does come across as a little arrogant.

[HastyPudding]

That said, one thing we have planned is to continue to add increases to Maximum MRR to caster sets and to the highest cores of caster trees.

Sev~

It's about time. I've long said that spellcasters (arcanes in particular) would and should know how to defend against magic-based attacks and offenses, if for any other reason than simply knowing their craft. Since we don't have spell mantles or counterspells and globes of invulnerability have very situational uses, we have to make do with MRR.

[Caarb]

MRR is intended to be an alternative to Evasion, and the highest levels are reserved for armor types that cannot obtain Evasion, even from a two level splash. We don't want players to be able to layer Evasion with high levels of MRR.

That said, one thing we have planned is to continue to add increases to Maximum MRR to caster sets and to the highest cores of caster trees.

Sev~

Can you at least add MRR cap to Deep Gnome and Warlock past lives and Dodge Cap to Shadarkai so completing the past lives will benefit all builds and not just ones that don't hit the hard caps. PS I also agree that hard caps are not a good idea and would prefer to have a multiplier based on armor type.

[LT218]

MRR is intended to be an alternative to Evasion, and the highest levels are reserved for armor types that cannot obtain Evasion, even from a two level splash. We don't want players to be able to layer Evasion with high levels of MRR.

That said, one thing we have planned is to continue to add increases to Maximum MRR to caster sets and to the highest cores of caster trees.

Sev~

This is another shining example of SSG not understanding their own game very well.

Claiming evasion is the alternative to high MRR caps is all well and good until, as mentioned in many places on these forums, you give monsters all a bunch of non-evadable spells and abilities, which you've done recently.

But I'm sure you knew that multiple spells and spell like abilities are broken with regard to evasion before you posted this, right? Maybe you should take a look at Cyclonic Blast (bugged?), all the un-evadable DoTs Baba Lysaga and champion mobs use, etc., etc. and realize that at this point in DDO, evasion with a 50 MRR cap doesn't even come close to cutting it.

As an example, on LH Baba Lysaga, her dots are hitting for 400+ per tic when stacked up on a toon with evasion, a 90+ reflex save, epic reflexes, and 50 MRR... on LH. If evasion were a viable alternative to high MRR, those dots would have never landed on a toon in an LH raid when said toon is built and geared for reaper.

[Niminae]

This is a false statement.

You might want to be more careful about attributing your quotes. Because when you only do it for the first quote you convey the impression that every quote following is from the same person.

And that is not the case in your post.

[Hephaestas]

No. This will homogenize tank stats and make there no reason to be running heavy armor weights. Everyone will be in max dodge, high mrr, prr builds. You will break ddo. They arent arbitrary, they make sense. They added them so people with evasion cant mitigate no evadable damage well. This would only work if they they gave higher armor weight and shields more mrr bonus and it would have to be a lot.

i love my light armor but you hit the nail on the head here. Lifting the one penalty holding back high dodge and evasion builds would be opening to flood gates for the death of heavys. I still feel like theres not enough reason to go heavy armor in todays game - doing this would kill it.

MRR is intended to be an alternative to Evasion, and the highest levels are reserved for armor types that cannot obtain Evasion, even from a two level splash. We don't want players to be able to layer Evasion with high levels of MRR.

nuff said^

[Tyrande]

This is another shining example of SSG not understanding their own game very well.

Claiming evasion is the alternative to high MRR caps is all well and good until, as mentioned in many places on these forums, you give monsters all a bunch of non-evadable spells and abilities, which you've done recently.

But I'm sure you knew that multiple spells and spell like abilities are broken with regard to evasion before you posted this, right? Maybe you should take a look at Cyclonic Blast (bugged?), all the un-evadable DoTs Baba Lysaga and champion mobs use, etc., etc. and realize that at this point in DDO, evasion with a 50 MRR cap doesn't even come close to cutting it.

As an example, on LH Baba Lysaga, her dots are hitting for 400+ per tic when stacked up on a toon with evasion, a 90+ reflex save, epic reflexes, and 50 MRR... on LH. If evasion were a viable alternative to high MRR, those dots would have never landed on a toon in an LH raid when said toon is built and geared for reaper.

DOTs are not meant to be dodge-able, in any game AFAIK. The lightning in those raids appear to be DOT like Eladar's Electric Surge, not regular lightning bolt like spells AFAIK.

As far as the Cyclonic Blast, dev(s) will get to it when they get to it, right? The save part AFAIK is a strength check whether you get knockdown or not. There is no mention of whether the spell is evadable. AFAIK, this spell is dodge-able when you tumble away, like scorching ray. If the ray hits, no evasion is applied.

As for tips, isn't there a monk like set at Eveningstar called Earth ~ Form of the Mid-Day Sun - that gives you -25% all damage. Together with the 25% deduction from 50 MRR, that should give you the equivalent of 100MRR, no?

Also, there's the twist of fate from Draconic Incarnation to twist in 50% absorption; and there are also items that absorb all spells, or absorb those elemental damage. Those should get you close to 90% absorption. Can't wear those items to give up DPS? Well, your choice of tumbling away or wear those things...

Monks are not supposedly the be all and end all class AFAIK.

[Hydian]

Yes it has, it cost more items slots to raise it (cost) vs a diminishing return, 50prr gets you 33% damage reduced, double that to a 100 and only 50% damage gets reduced, double it again to a 200 prr and only 16% more from the previous point gets reduced.

Yes, because you do not understand what diminishing returns means. When you advance from 1st level to 2nd level, you have doubled your level. When you advance from 10th level to 11th level, your level has only increased by 10%. That is not diminishing returns, but linear advancement. PRR and MRR work the same way. They are linear advancement. Every 100 PRR increases your effective hit points by the amount you have with 0 PRR. So if you have 1000 hitpoints, 100 PRR effectively gives you 2000, 200 PRR effectively gives you 3000, etc. It is a linear advancement. Yes, the percentages change, but as I've already demonstrated that happens with *any* system that doesn't isn't progressive returns in nature.

Diminishing returns is when the cost to benefit ratio changes. Either the cost goes up (see character creation and point buy of abilities) or the return on the cost goes down (can't think of a DDO mechanic that really does this, but City of Heroes did it with their Enhancement system).

[Avocado]

i love my light armor but you hit the nail on the head here. Lifting the one penalty holding back high dodge and evasion builds would be opening to flood gates for the death of heavys. I still feel like theres not enough reason to go heavy armor in todays game - doing this would kill it.



nuff said^

I actually prefer heavy armor now for all my melee builds. Reaper mobs bypass so much dodge that running anything under 25 might be worth nothing. I think running with a shield and 100ish mrr with a reflex save is better overall then evasion and 50 mrr. Mrr values are doubled with large shields. I prefer 275+ prr and and 150+ mrr and 15 dodge over 200 prr and 100 Mr and 30 dodge.

[Avocado]

Yes, because you do not understand what diminishing returns means. When you advance from 1st level to 2nd level, you have doubled your level. When you advance from 10th level to 11th level, your level has only increased by 10%. That is not diminishing returns, but linear advancement. PRR and MRR work the same way. They are linear advancement. Every 100 PRR increases your effective hit points by the amount you have with 0 PRR. So if you have 1000 hitpoints, 100 PRR effectively gives you 2000, 200 PRR effectively gives you 3000, etc. It is a linear advancement. Yes, the percentages change, but as I've already demonstrated that happens with *any* system that doesn't isn't progressive returns in nature.

Diminishing returns is when the cost to benefit ratio changes. Either the cost goes up (see character creation and point buy of abilities) or the return on the cost goes down (can't think of a DDO mechanic that really does this, but City of Heroes did it with their Enhancement system).

This helps me understand more. It's relative, 0 to 10 prr is 10 fold increase and 100 to 110 is a 10% increase. But does this mean that 10 prr at 50 prr is the same as getting 10 prr at 300 prr?