Remove MRR Armor Caps

[Amundir]

However much you think is appropriate. When I run RSO, I put on some crafted equipment that gives me electric resistance and absorption. That means I have to give up whatever was in that slot. I like that there are tradeoffs that have to be made. I don't want everyone to be able to fully load up on every possible enchantment at once.

^ This. When I first started playing DDO, it was common for myself to carry around various items with the different resistances on it and when the situation arose that I knew a certain element was heavily used offensively, I'd swap to the one that was appropriate.

This was mitigated in large part by the onset of the guild elemental resistances in the cargo hold and I don't really do it anymore. But if the situation arose where it would lean itself towards making the completion of quests more likely, you better bet I'd start carrying around swap-able resistance/absorption items again.

[lyrecono]

Soon, like the FvS enhancement pass that was mentioned in the Sep 2016 producer letter and still has not been delivered?


Not an arbitrary artificial cap.

You coaght my drift, soon yes.....
At least fvs and mrr cap are on the dev radar (officially).
Some classes that were originally designed to be front line melees get less melee/defense support from their enh then ranged and caster classes.

As explained before:

Prr does not have a cap; nor does it have diminishing returns.

Yes it has, it cost more items slots to raise it (cost) vs a diminishing return, 50prr gets you 33% damage reduced, double that to a 100 and only 50% damage gets reduced, double it again to a 200 prr and only 16% more from the previous point gets reduced.

50 prr, 33%
100prr, 50%
200prr, 66%
400prr, 80%

You need far more points of prr in order to double the amount.
Let's say i have a 50 prr rogue, a 200 prr barb and a paly fighter with 400 prr, i find an item with Insightful Physical Sheltering 22.
The rogue goes from 33% damage reduced to 44% damage reduced, that's 11% reduced for 1 item slot
that barb will go from taking 33% damage to 31% damage taken, so 1 item slot for 2% damage reduced.
The fighter/paly multclass will go from 20% damage taken to 19% taken, so loose 1 slot for 1% damage reduced.

Raising ones prr costs pastlives(or time invested), gear slots, enh, feats, ED points, twist slots, etc, besides past lives, each and everyone of those takes away from your build options, loosing out on CC, healing, skills, casting DCs, spell pen, HP, mrr, saves, etc. that 1 items slot with Insightful Physical Sheltering 22 will take away a build option, it's a very real cost.

The return for a high prr toon is diminished.

[slarden]

armor has a cap on MRR as it goes down and dodge has a cap as armor goes up.

Not sure there would ever be a reason to wear anything but cloth if they removed the MRR cap.

[mr420247]

You do that and monk splashes will be invincible with no fail saves on 1s

Luv it but just saying you would need to un nerf all armor up nerfs and they still would not come close

This is about layering defenses ac dodge prr mrr conceal resists absorbs and run speed

[Avocado]

Situation:

Anyone spending time in Legendary Ravenloft has experienced being absolutely decimated by spells:

* DoT spells such as Niac's Biting Cold, Eladar's Electric Surge, Black Dragon Bolt, and Burning Blood.
* AE spells that are ignoring saving throws for half damage, such as Cyclonic Blast.
* AE spells that are not mitigated by MRR, such as Horrid Wilting.

Background:

The primary mitigation mechanic to reduce spell damage in DDO is Magical Resistance Rating. When the MRR cap was first introduced, it wasn't even possible to reach the arbitrary artificial cap for cloth wearers (Sorcerer, Wizard, Monk) because of the lack of itemization, past life feats and enhancement changes. Now it's commonplace for cloth armor wearers to hit the cap by equipping one item. While not as epidemic, light armor wearers (Rogue, Ranger, Artificer, Bard, Warlock) can hit the 100 MRR cap.

Reference:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Magical_Resistance_Rating
http://ddowiki.com/page/Physical_Resistance_Rating

Assessment:

The problem with MRR is the arbitrary artificial cap based on armor type. Cloth armor wearers are all too keenly aware of this. MRR cap is easily met by equipping just one legendary item. There's no point in considering an Insightful, Quality, Mythic or Artifact item bonus, or enhancements that increase MRR. This does not align with DDO's core principle of character customization.

No MRR benefit from Deep Gnome or Warlock past lives can be realized at level cap for cloth wearers, unless the Beacon of Magic set is worn. Unfortunately due to the typing of the DC bonus (Artifact), it doesn't stack with Slave Lords Sorcery set which is superior. Six past lives is a huge investment not to reap the rewards from. DDO thrives because of the TReadmill. Don't give players another reason to not TR. There are enough of those already.

Recommendations:

1. Remove artificial MRR caps based on worn armor type. PRR doesn't have an artificial cap based on armor worn, and no one is complaining about characters running around with too much PRR in cloth armor.

No. This will homogenize tank stats and make there no reason to be running heavy armor weights. Everyone will be in max dodge, high mrr, prr builds. You will break ddo. They arent arbitrary, they make sense. They added them so people with evasion cant mitigate no evadable damage well. This would only work if they they gave higher armor weight and shields more mrr bonus and it would have to be a lot.

[Tilomere]

Just wear medium armor on all characters except those with evasion. Uncapped MRR so it is equal to plate against magic, and decent dodge cap so it is better than plate vs. physical, and much better against champions with on-hit damage effects.

[Selvera]

Yes it has, it cost more items slots to raise it (cost) vs a diminishing return, 50prr gets you 33% damage reduced, double that to a 100 and only 50% damage gets reduced, double it again to a 200 prr and only 16% more from the previous point gets reduced.

50 prr, 33%
100prr, 50%
200prr, 66%
400prr, 80%

You need far more points of prr in order to double the amount.
Let's say i have a 50 prr rogue, a 200 prr barb and a paly fighter with 400 prr, i find an item with Insightful Physical Sheltering 22.
The rogue goes from 33% damage reduced to 44% damage reduced, that's 11% reduced for 1 item slot
that barb will go from taking 33% damage to 31% damage taken, so 1 item slot for 2% damage reduced.
The fighter/paly multclass will go from 20% damage taken to 19% taken, so loose 1 slot for 1% damage reduced.

Raising ones prr costs pastlives(or time invested), gear slots, enh, feats, ED points, twist slots, etc, besides past lives, each and everyone of those takes away from your build options, loosing out on CC, healing, skills, casting DCs, spell pen, HP, mrr, saves, etc. that 1 items slot with Insightful Physical Sheltering 22 will take away a build option, it's a very real cost.

The return for a high prr toon is diminished.

I'm pretty sure I've explained this before... it doesn't have diminishing returns.

50 PRR = take 66.6% damage; Thus you have effectively 50% more HP vs physical damage
100 PRR = take 50% damage; Thus you have effectively 100% more HP vs physical damage
200 PRR = take 33.3% damage; Thus you have effectively 200% more HP vs physical damage
400 PRR = take 20% damage; thus you have effectively 400% more HP vs physical damage.

Would you like me to go into the math behind this? It is a very predictable pattern and does not diminish no matter how high you stack it up. Every point of PRR grants 1% effective health vs physical damage.

Or... if you don't want to think about it that way;
imagine this; let's say each point of PRR gave 0.1% damage reduction, non "diminishing" (as you term it). Let's imagine this person has 900 HP and is getting hit by a gnoll for 100 damage each. Simple math says they will die after 9 hits if they had 0 PRR.

Now say someone went from 0 PRR to 100 PRR; they would go from 0% damage reduction to 10% damage reduction. If a gnoll was hitting them for 100 damage before, now it's hitting them for 90, so they can now survive 10 hits. The +100 PRR just gave them +1 hit survived.

Now say they had 700 PRR for 70% damage reduction, thus the gnoll is hitting them for 30 damage each. They will die after the gnoll hits them 30 times.
Now if they increased their PRR by 100 again; to 80% damage reduction (still 10% increase), the gnoll is now hitting them for 20 damage per hit. They now take 45 hits to kill. So the +100 PRR just gave them +8 hits survived.

Which increase sounds more valuable to you? Going from 9 to 10 hits, or going from 30 to 45 hits? What if we take this further?

What if they further increased their PRR by 100 again; to 90% damage reduction (still 10% increase), the gnoll is now hitting them for 10 damage per hit. They now take 90 hits to kill. So the +100 PRR has just DOUBLED their durability vs this enemy.

I think it's clear that a strait 1-to-1 PRR to damage reduction formula isn't the definition of "not-diminishing returns"; it's the definition of steadily increasing returns.

[AbyssalMage]

I'm pretty sure I've explained this before... it doesn't have diminishing returns.

50 PRR = take 66.6% damage; Thus you have effectively 50% more HP vs physical damage
100 PRR = take 50% damage; Thus you have effectively 100% more HP vs physical damage
200 PRR = take 33.3% damage; Thus you have effectively 200% more HP vs physical damage
400 PRR = take 20% damage; thus you have effectively 400% more HP vs physical damage.

Would you like me to go into the math behind this? It is a very predictable pattern and does not diminish no matter how high you stack it up. Every point of PRR grants 1% effective health vs physical damage.

Or... if you don't want to think about it that way;
imagine this; let's say each point of PRR gave 0.1% damage reduction, non "diminishing" (as you term it). Let's imagine this person has 900 HP and is getting hit by a gnoll for 100 damage each. Simple math says they will die after 9 hits if they had 0 PRR.

Now say someone went from 0 PRR to 100 PRR; they would go from 0% damage reduction to 10% damage reduction. If a gnoll was hitting them for 100 damage before, now it's hitting them for 90, so they can now survive 10 hits. The +100 PRR just gave them +1 hit survived.

Now say they had 700 PRR for 70% damage reduction, thus the gnoll is hitting them for 30 damage each. They will die after the gnoll hits them 30 times.
Now if they increased their PRR by 100 again; to 80% damage reduction (still 10% increase), the gnoll is now hitting them for 20 damage per hit. They now take 45 hits to kill. So the +100 PRR just gave them +8 hits survived.

Which increase sounds more valuable to you? Going from 9 to 10 hits, or going from 30 to 45 hits? What if we take this further?

What if they further increased their PRR by 100 again; to 90% damage reduction (still 10% increase), the gnoll is now hitting them for 10 damage per hit. They now take 90 hits to kill. So the +100 PRR has just DOUBLED their durability vs this enemy.

I think it's clear that a strait 1-to-1 PRR to damage reduction formula isn't the definition of "not-diminishing returns"; it's the definition of steadily increasing returns.

Please lets stay away from the PRR debate. If you need to, simply link the graphic models and move on. Both answers are correct.

Second, and on topic. When the PRR/MRR pass was made, it was directly stated by Dev's that the "Cap" was lowered (i.e. put in place) because A) It could be exploited with one certain build (no longer the case after the third armor pass "correction", I believe) and (B) to prevent any exploit in the future. Considering I had a guildy ready to exploit the first one (i.e. "The Build") and the second one has been prevented thus far, why is there now a rush to undo there foresight? I mean, it is a rare occasion that Turbine (now SSG) did something correct before they released it to the live servers (i.e. they listened to the players that the initial model was too powerful).

[Kriogen]

It's not a problem that pyjama has cap on MRR, but that pyjama has no cap on PRR.

I would sign, but only if:
- heavy metal has less(or no) problems with dodge
- heavy metal has build in MRR
- can(with enough gear and PLs) use Evasion
- ....
- I think you get the idea

If pyjama has no limit/cap, then why bother with heavy metal?

The way I understand it:
- heavy is suppose to give good predicatable damage mitigation. You usualy get hit, but damage is reduced by a good chunk
- light is more random(ish). Many times you dont get hit at all (dodge, evasion), but on a bad day you can get hit by a big spike
- you are not suppose to have both. It would be ~tgm (toggle god mode). Rare that you get hit at all, and when you do its not for much

If I'd be dev, I'd nerf pyjama, not boost it.

[lyrecono]

Please lets stay away from the PRR debate. If you need to, simply link the graphic models and move on. Both answers are correct.

Second, and on topic. When the PRR/MRR pass was made, it was directly stated by Dev's that the "Cap" was lowered (i.e. put in place) because A) It could be exploited with one certain build (no longer the case after the third armor pass "correction", I believe) and (B) to prevent any exploit in the future. Considering I had a guildy ready to exploit the first one (i.e. "The Build") and the second one has been prevented thus far, why is there now a rush to undo there foresight? I mean, it is a rare occasion that Turbine (now SSG) did something correct before they released it to the live servers (i.e. they listened to the players that the initial model was too powerful).

To bad turbine didn't have the foresight to ballance the content in advance so we didn't need prr& mrr, even our feedback on said content didn't change their mind. Now we're stuck with needless stat requirements, wasting item&twist slots.
Almost like they were interested more in selling hearts of wood and exp potions for those grinding out those lives for the oppertunity to survive the poorly ballanced content.

[Engoril]

If I'd be dev, I'd nerf pyjama, not boost it.

They are already making indirect nerfs to pyjamas by content design. All the latest raids, Strahd's, Baba's Hut, Ride the Storm, all have massive magic damage attacks that cannot be dodged and which cannot be evaded, yet high MRR can mitigate the damage of these. They have probably been set at their high damage levels on the assumption some characters can reach 200+ MRR with no fail saves. This sort of content is effectively nerfing any build that cannot get above 50 MRR. Yes these raids have other things you can do to help you through the damage, but these are also available to the high MRR builds.

[goodspeed]

hey if thats the case can heavy armor have its mrr and prr values back to make it betters then evasion again? Why evade the fireball when you can jog through it and keep whipping spells!

[Spadedragon]

If they remove the mrr cap they would also have to remove evasion and dodge to keep things balanced.

[Ballrus]

1. Remove artificial MRR caps based on worn armor type. PRR doesn't have an artificial cap based on armor worn, and no one is complaining about characters running around with too much PRR in cloth armor.

No! Just no! No more powercreep for monks and casters!
Instead, ADD a prr cap for clothes, 75 max!!!! It's enough.

You want power? OK! but need a tradeoff for this power!

If the dev's do this, soon people will start argue that the game is too easy, and beg for a increase in dificult.

No more powercreep for monks and casters.

[cru121]

Arbitrary cap is probably bad. After all, with all past lives and best gear, you should be able to have more MRR than korthos-geared first lifer.

Perhaps instead we should have a multiplier that modifies MRR depending on armor type worn. When wearing a robe or empty armor slot: receive half benefit from MRR. You're worse off until you reach 100 MRR, anything above that makes you resist more than is currently possible.

[Arkat]

Arbitrary cap is probably bad. After all, with all past lives and best gear, you should be able to have more MRR than korthos-geared first lifer.

Perhaps instead we should have a multiplier that modifies MRR depending on armor type worn. When wearing a robe or empty armor slot: receive half benefit from MRR. You're worse off until you reach 100 MRR, anything above that makes you resist more than is currently possible.

I'd support something like this.

+1

[lyrecono]

I'm pretty sure I've explained this before... it doesn't have diminishing returns.

50 PRR = take 66.6% damage; Thus you have effectively 50% more HP vs physical damage
100 PRR = take 50% damage; Thus you have effectively 100% more HP vs physical damage
200 PRR = take 33.3% damage; Thus you have effectively 200% more HP vs physical damage
400 PRR = take 20% damage; thus you have effectively 400% more HP vs physical damage.

Would you like me to go into the math behind this? It is a very predictable pattern and does not diminish no matter how high you stack it up. Every point of PRR grants 1% effective health vs physical damage.

Or... if you don't want to think about it that way;
imagine this; let's say each point of PRR gave 0.1% damage reduction, non "diminishing" (as you term it). Let's imagine this person has 900 HP and is getting hit by a gnoll for 100 damage each. Simple math says they will die after 9 hits if they had 0 PRR.

Now say someone went from 0 PRR to 100 PRR; they would go from 0% damage reduction to 10% damage reduction. If a gnoll was hitting them for 100 damage before, now it's hitting them for 90, so they can now survive 10 hits. The +100 PRR just gave them +1 hit survived.

Now say they had 700 PRR for 70% damage reduction, thus the gnoll is hitting them for 30 damage each. They will die after the gnoll hits them 30 times.
Now if they increased their PRR by 100 again; to 80% damage reduction (still 10% increase), the gnoll is now hitting them for 20 damage per hit. They now take 45 hits to kill. So the +100 PRR just gave them +8 hits survived.

Which increase sounds more valuable to you? Going from 9 to 10 hits, or going from 30 to 45 hits? What if we take this further?

What if they further increased their PRR by 100 again; to 90% damage reduction (still 10% increase), the gnoll is now hitting them for 10 damage per hit. They now take 90 hits to kill. So the +100 PRR has just DOUBLED their durability vs this enemy.

I think it's clear that a strait 1-to-1 PRR to damage reduction formula isn't the definition of "not-diminishing returns"; it's the definition of steadily increasing returns.

Who are you talking to?
Because this isn't a responce to my statement.

An item with a stacking 22prr does different things to different builds based on what their prr was before hand.
(Insightfull sheltering goes up to 22 on the wiki, hence why took this example)
On a tank that+22 (very real tank situation) barely makes an impact where it makes a huge difference on said(100 prr) rog.
I'm not talking about your virtual hp nonsence, i'm talking about real numbers that are impacted by the shoddy formula.
What you put in doesn't necesairly show as a result.

Getting your prr up on a non monk/paladin/fighter is an item nightmare.
But it gets worse on a full out tank.
Getting an item version with +2 mythic bonus higher then what i'm already wearing doesn't make much of a dent on a 400 prr tank.
Raising the damage reduced is going to cost more and more sources.

[Selvera]

Arbitrary cap is probably bad. After all, with all past lives and best gear, you should be able to have more MRR than korthos-geared first lifer.

Perhaps instead we should have a multiplier that modifies MRR depending on armor type worn. When wearing a robe or empty armor slot: receive half benefit from MRR. You're worse off until you reach 100 MRR, anything above that makes you resist more than is currently possible.

This is a solution I have suggested in the past; and it is one I still support. MRR multiplier based on armor type.

An item with a stacking 22prr does different things to different builds based on what their prr was before hand.

This is a false statement. A character with 1000 HP can survive an additional 220 physical damage whenever they equip an item of 22 prr, regardless of what their current PRR is. But, as someone said above. This thread is about the MRR cap; it's not about me explaining to you how prr works. We can do that elsewhere.

[Tyrande]

Best way to kill punk uber monks? Damage Over Time Spells that are not resistible!

I guess this is dev's way to allow monks to have some kind of disadvantage... or so we call game balance, trade offs.

Lots of ways to kill casters though... Just have teleporting ultra hitting truck monsters; or crazy traps; but these don't work against high AC, high PRR monks.

[Fallout47]

armor has a cap on MRR as it goes down and dodge has a cap as armor goes up.

Not sure there would ever be a reason to wear anything but cloth if they removed the MRR cap.

I agree. All builds are based on a cost/benefit analysis. You choose different levels of armor for different builds for a reason: limit arcane spell failure, maintain evasion, stay centered or to max defenses. For the healbot I run, survivability is my primary goal. I went with an evasion build at the sacrifice of both PRR and MRR. I accepted that at the time I built him. When RL came out, I decided to invest in a full 5 piece Nystul's Set. I could have easily chose something else, but this is where he was weak. I accept that I can't have my cake and eat it to.