Remove MRR Armor Caps

[caberonia]

MRR is intended to be an alternative to Evasion, and the highest levels are reserved for armor types that cannot obtain Evasion, even from a two level splash. We don't want players to be able to layer Evasion with high levels of MRR.

That said, one thing we have planned is to continue to add increases to Maximum MRR to caster sets and to the highest cores of caster trees.

Sev~

This would be true IF MRR didn't block many more types of damage than evasion. Evasion simply doesn't provide a benefit to the number of spells and effects that MRR does. If someone wants to show the true difference in benefit a quick list of spells that each one protects against would overwhelmingly show that MRR is the greater of the 2.. protecting against not only evadable effects but MOST non-evadable ones as well.

If any of my fellow players would like to take the time and effort to make a side by side list of evadable spells and spells which MRR helps against it would certainly help the devs understand the HUGE advantage MRR has.

If no one else is up to the task I will attempt to make a list sometime in the future when i have the time. I don't mean disrespect but the fact that MRR DOES protect against so many MORE spells and effects than evasion I think shows a huge disconnect between dev vision and dev implementation.

Bottom line is MRR is FAR superior than evasion for the majority of magical damage types. Where as MRR is almost universally going to provide some protection. Evasion has a limited number of spells it helps against and even then is reliant on a secondary stat which must be on par for the difficulty of the content.

Altering or removing the capps from MRR isn't the fix all.. but it certainly will help the imbalance between evasion and MRR at this point.

[mr420247]

Its about layering defenses

evasion with no fail saves is op

if they fixed cylonics saves even more op

now add in all the armor up nerfs which were put into place

after all the evasion nerfs so there would be a reason to play any class but monk or rogue

[mr420247]

Run speed, ac, dodge, deflect, concealment, incorp, prr, mrr, absorbs

Jump kiting, when it takes multi proc adrenaline hits that can't even hit you

Then yes its not fun

[Chai]

You are right, the devs introduced the concept as an alternative to evasion but it's based on type of damage an not type of save. This is just like everything else in the game - to challenge builds with high values you end up one-shotting the weaker builds in some cases. It's no different than low prr builds getting one shot.

I still don't see this as a major issue impacting me and I play builds with all armor types. It's still non-sensical to expect all builds to compare to tanks. There are many options to tackle the problem besides going to the forum and asking for more power.

Im not asking for more power. Im asking for more viable combinations. Artificial limitations lessen the number of viable combinations, and creates a situation where players are pigeonholed into having to build for max X only, because X is the only aspect allowable to be maxed out, as Y and Z are capped artificially.

The fear of people building superior defense characters is irrational, because the system already has limitations. You only get 80 AP + racial, and 24 ED AP. If a character has most or all of that into defense they wont DPS their way out of a wet paper bag, but will be hard to kill.

Id like to see anyone drop a few names of other MMOs which disallow this through artificial limitations like DDO is. In successful games they enforce trade offs as outlined above. Sure someone can build a super tank, just like they can make a super max crit DPS machine or a pocket immy heal bot, but to max out any one of those aspects means being less than mediocre (terrible actually) in the other two.

No one expects all builds to compare to tanks. We just want to be able to min/max for tank stats, like we can min/max other aspect if we desire. This equates to more viable combinations, not more overall power.

[Alcedes]

Situation:

Anyone spending time in Legendary Ravenloft has experienced being absolutely decimated by spells:

* DoT spells such as Niac's Biting Cold, Eladar's Electric Surge, Black Dragon Bolt, and Burning Blood.
* AE spells that are ignoring saving throws for half damage, such as Cyclonic Blast.
* AE spells that are not mitigated by MRR, such as Horrid Wilting.

Background:

The primary mitigation mechanic to reduce spell damage in DDO is Magical Resistance Rating. When the MRR cap was first introduced, it wasn't even possible to reach the arbitrary artificial cap for cloth wearers (Sorcerer, Wizard, Monk) because of the lack of itemization, past life feats and enhancement changes. Now it's commonplace for cloth armor wearers to hit the cap by equipping one item. While not as epidemic, light armor wearers (Rogue, Ranger, Artificer, Bard, Warlock) can hit the 100 MRR cap.

Reference:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Magical_Resistance_Rating
http://ddowiki.com/page/Physical_Resistance_Rating

Assessment:

The problem with MRR is the arbitrary artificial cap based on armor type. Cloth armor wearers are all too keenly aware of this. MRR cap is easily met by equipping just one legendary item. There's no point in considering an Insightful, Quality, Mythic or Artifact item bonus, or enhancements that increase MRR. This does not align with DDO's core principle of character customization.

No MRR benefit from Deep Gnome or Warlock past lives can be realized at level cap for cloth wearers, unless the Beacon of Magic set is worn. Unfortunately due to the typing of the DC bonus (Artifact), it doesn't stack with Slave Lords Sorcery set which is superior. Six past lives is a huge investment not to reap the rewards from. DDO thrives because of the TReadmill. Don't give players another reason to not TR. There are enough of those already.

Recommendations:

1. Remove artificial MRR caps based on worn armor type. PRR doesn't have an artificial cap based on armor worn, and no one is complaining about characters running around with too much PRR in cloth armor.

I wish I could give this a thousand thumbs-downs or vote-downs or *** ever is popular.

Just no. Casters and others wearing "cloth" are not in need of any help right now. Why is everyone so determined to remove need for players who want to wear heavy armor? Clothies already enjoy no PRR cap (I have multiple wizards in my guild right now with 250ish PRR, my own is a gimp with his meager 199) so they can already tank melee hits as well as a non tank build. Now that is not enough. Now you want them to be able to just eat spells at the same time. Cuz that is what this game needs. More invincible DC casters running around insta killing everything.

People, we already had this system a long time ago. It was pretty much rejected by the community.

IF they were to remove the MRR cap from cloth armor, then they should move it to the PRR. 50 PRR cap. Of course now, you are going to be getting one hit killed by archers and other melee on higher reaper levels...this would make plenty of sense. but i bet i will find a wordy post begging for "more power please" regarding clothies being squishy again


PRR/MRR/AC are working JUST FINE. Characters who are investing heavily into this stuff are doing so AT A MAJOR COST to their dps. To allow clothies to run around with 250 PRR, 150 MRR, 110 DC's on their insta kills, 30% Dodge, 50% Displace, 25% Incorp, in the case of warlock and necro wizards some of the best sustained self healing in the game, and 2,800 HP is stupid.

Just stop. If you are struggling as a clothie in reapers right now, it isnt the mechanics. its you.

[Zites]

No, you missed the point of the example. The point was not to compare builds. The point was to illustrate that AC, PRR and MRR are far more effective in difficult content than Dodge + Evasion. If AC, PRR and MRR were worthless or if Dodge + Evasion was significantly superior, heavy tanks would be running around with builds focused on those instead of maxing AC, PRR, and MRR at the expense of evasion and dodge.


Until the devs actually acknowledge it as a problem and commit to fixing it, this would be pointless.


You haven't done a medium or heavy armor DPS build properly then. I've run multiple DPS builds/lives on cloth, light and heavy armor. The heavy armor builds always have better survivability in the challenging content. I don't bother with medium armor because it sits in no man's land between the high dodge cap and MDB of cloth and light armor and the high PRR and MRR of heavy armor.

Says the guys in the robes trying for worlds first R10 "Killing Time" sorry I don't feel sorry for ya, that they build a raid that runs train on HS n OP LMAO!!! You always say you want a challenge how bout damage from both sides

[LT218]

Says the guys in the robes trying for worlds first R10 "Killing Time" sorry I don't feel sorry for ya, that they build a raid that runs train on HS n OP LMAO!!! You always say you want a challenge how bout damage from both sides

You must really enjoy being wrong. You are 2 for 2 in 2 sentences.

[zaidm271981]

removing mrr cap might look like a good idea
then again
do monks and casters need more power? are these two archetypes at the bottom of the power scale these days?

Indeed.
Monks have had too many nerfs and are near the bottom - think KT and the cluster it does to monks and you'll get why we want this useless MRR cap removed

[Zites]

You must really enjoy being wrong. You are 2 for 2 in 2 sentences.

i guar-ron-tee you in light or cloth and couldn't hit a squire with a bazooka if you didn't play the meta and keep telling your self it's your ability to use macros ;;D.

[HastyPudding]

Wow, necro....



But yes, I always did find that the MRR cap hinders spellcasters more than monks. Wizards and sorcerers are supposed to be very knowledge about magic, so they are supposed to have magical defenses in place to protect themselves against a magical attack. In DDO they don't have that (anymore). Protection from energy, resist energy, and the non-stacking spell resistance spells are terrible when actually defending against magic. Arcane casters in DDO have no spell mantles or wards to protect themselves.

[Zites]

Indeed.
Monks have had too many nerfs and are near the bottom - think KT and the cluster it does to monks and you'll get why we want this useless MRR cap removed

Yep looks like the bottom to me!

[Shadow_Jumper]

IF they were to remove the MRR cap from cloth armor, then they should move it to the PRR. 50 PRR cap. Of course now, you are going to be getting one hit killed by archers and other melee on higher reaper levels...this would make plenty of sense. but i bet i will find a wordy post begging for "more power please" regarding clothies being squishy again

There shouldn't be a cap on any defenses. The limit should be that cloth/light armor have more opportunity cost to gain more defense than medium/heavy armor, while heavy/medium armor have less opportunity cost.

EDF was a massive slap in the face to fighter/paladin builds because it removed the opportunity cost of the stalwart/sacred defender stance that fighter/paladins took and made it 0 opportunity cost. The fact that the devs succumbed to pressure from players who complained that they were dying too much in reaper, when they specifically said reaper was meant to kill you and that they wouldn't balance off of it is hilarious. That they "added" defense in such a way that gave 0 benefit to melee that were taking the same benefits of it for an opportunity cost, and gave it to melee that weren't for 0 opportunity loss is grossly incompetent.

There shouldn't be a limit on prr/mrr at any level. The cap should be how much dps you want to sacrifice for the defense,. What there should be is major gains for major sacrifices. The devs don't know what is/isn't possible with defense in the game rn, so they just capped it because they're lazy. And as a result heavy/medium armor is going to need a massive powercreep to catch up.

[Zites]

There shouldn't be a cap on any defenses. The limit should be that cloth/light armor have more opportunity cost to gain more defense than medium/heavy armor, while heavy/medium armor have less opportunity cost.

EDF was a massive slap in the face to fighter/paladin builds because it removed the opportunity cost of the stalwart/sacred defender stance that fighter/paladins took and made it 0 opportunity cost. The fact that the devs succumbed to pressure from players who complained that they were dying too much in reaper, when they specifically said reaper was meant to kill you and that they wouldn't balance off of it is hilarious. That they "added" defense in such a way that gave 0 benefit to melee that were taking the same benefits of it for an opportunity cost, and gave it to melee that weren't for 0 opportunity loss is grossly incompetent.

There shouldn't be a limit on prr/mrr at any level. The cap should be how much dps you want to sacrifice for the defense,. What there should be is major gains for major sacrifices. The devs don't know what is/isn't possible with defense in the game rn, so they just capped it because they're lazy. And as a result heavy/medium armor is going to need a massive powercreep to catch up.

Yea than maybe you could solo R10 Raids next sounds like fun!

[zaidm271981]

MRR may help those without Evasion to mitigate incoming magic damage, but MRR doesn’t operate on the same parallel as Evasion. Nor to does it serve as a fix. MRR sole purpose SHOULD be to give players a mean of managing damage from non-physical (magic) sources of damage that players otherwise have no mean of dealing with, because that is what it accomplishes. Or mostly accomplishes, as players in light or no armor are basically penalized with an arbitrary cap because someone believed that Evasion should be a part of the balance equation when it shouldn’t be.

Let me explain, Evasion acts more like a miss chance. Its calculated a bit differently, but end result of the player taking no damage from a specific source type is the same. It’s in important tools for the likes of rogues who need to bypass terrain that would otherwise heavily damage the less nimble. In DDO, its essentially needed in some content as the goal is sometimes inside dangerous areas with no safe spot to stand. Without such a spot, it’d otherwise be impossible to disable that trap, open that door, pull that lever, etc… as damage interrupts the progress bar.

MRR acts like PRR. A way to manage the damage you take regardless if it was avoidable or not.

Now, I don’t think you’re going to see anyone complain that a more heavily armored characters can obtain MRR more easily and are able to reach a higher total. Under PRR you have this dynamic, but if an evasion armored character chooses to, they can invest to reach a viable number. MRR should act the same way. Right now it doesn’t with the cap.

If you want a mechanic to allow more heavily armored character to take zero damage from reflex based sources, then add a mechanic that adds that.

Secondly, what fear is there with layering high MRR with Evasion? They take small amounts of damage all the same, but sometimes take zero? Who cares? The higher the MRR value the less value Evasion has. Double dipping in this instance doesn't yield a synergistic benefit. If the MRR gets high enough you can get to basically take zero magic damage with or without evasion.

Exactly! +1

[zaidm271981]

yep looks like the bottom to me!

kt.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Yea than maybe you could solo R10 Raids next sounds like fun!

Your point? You argued for EDF. I have spent the entire time pointing out that it was a bad idea for multiple reasons. Now here you are arguing that you need more defenses. Sadly the deevs just listen to screaming people with no grasp on reality for their changes.

[SerPounce]

On the one hand a hard cap is a sloppy, inelegant, solution, but on the other hand most people are running in silent avenger or beacon of magic anyway so it's not like light armor/cloth is behind overall. And with all the static bonuses to PRR (but not so much for max dex/dodge cap) it feels like medium and heavy armor have fallen behind more.

DDO has never really gotten defense right since number inflation made the d20 AC system fall apart around when epic was introduced. The key generally seems to be to layer as many low investment defensive stats as is practical and just accept that you'll occasionally get ganked by some oddball effect or series of bad rolls on high difficulties.

[Zites]

Your point? You argued for EDF. I have spent the entire time pointing out that it was a bad idea for multiple reasons. Now here you are arguing that you need more defenses. Sadly the deevs just listen to screaming people with no grasp on reality for their changes.

My point is I say they give it to ya than maybe you all can actually beat Killing Time LMAO also if you had let it go as it was intended I would have 25% HP but no you had to **** the bed.

[LT218]

i guar-ron-tee you in light or cloth and couldn't hit a squire with a bazooka if you didn't play the meta and keep telling your self it's your ability to use macros ;;D.

Why don't you let me know when you're done moving the goalposts. Moving them doesn't make you not wrong. It just makes you look desperate.

[Zites]

Why don't you let me know when you're done moving the goalposts. Moving them doesn't make you not wrong. It just makes you look desperate.

I want MMR cap increased damit so you can get a challenge because this is what you play for!