Since I wrote my post a few days ago I have thought more on this and now feel less certainty.
If this happened tomorrow it would dramatically change how I play. First, I would create a brand new character, make her my avatar, run her to L30, and equip her. She would never again leave L30. I would never need to destroy her to play a class or race she should never be. That would be _fantastic_.
My current avatar would become my character for accumulating Epic Past Life Feats. I would create a third, new character for accumulating Iconic Past Life Feats. I would create a fourth new character for accumulating Racial Past Life Feats and Reaper Experience.
I hate dying but since I could now make throw away characters I would stop my solo ways and join groups a lot more often.
The more I thought about it, the more I realized your suggestion would solve many of my problems with this game.
My impression is that the really dedicated players here have multiple characters with the 'right' Past Life Feats. They have more than one character with Completionist or Epic Completionist or whatever.
If Past Life Feats become account based, those people essentially lose the redundant effort they put into multiple characters. They will not accept such a change gladly. I tend to think those sorts of dedicated players pay more into the game. I think their concerns and opinions deserve careful consideration.
With regards Otto's Boxes, the more I thought about this suggestion the more I began to think it's a wash. If a player bought Otto's boxes in the past and does NOT have redundant Past Life Feats, those boxes suddenly get a huge boost in worth. If a new player purchases an Otto's Box, it leverages for all future characters and again increases their worth. The only sticky wicket is those dedicated players with redundant Past Life Feats. They may feel like their investment in Otto's Boxes was wasted.
There is also the issue of players thinking other players need to 'earn it'. I do not think any argument will ever budge them.
Anyway, having thought more on this suggestion I am now much more ambivalent. As I wrote in my immediately previous post, it would actually offer a huge benefit to my own play experience. Ironically, for me, it would not offer that benefit because I have multiple characters. I essentially have one character on each of my accounts. The benefit would cause me to create more characters, play in a much wider range of levels, and try things I normally shun. In essence, I realized I am the poster child for causing the sort of change in behavior the original poster wants to foster. Go figure.
Power creep is (part of) the problem you are describing. Piling on more power creep is not the solution to power creep.
The power creep, from PLs, from p2w, from everywhere, needs to be addressed. For that to happen, there needs to be a strong sense of PvE balance, so that a well-built first-life character has a reasonable chance of success in quests.
I'm pretty sure that isn't going to happen. I'm pretty sure the game-plan is something along the lines of what we've seen pushed in the recent past (e.g. the jacked-up plans for TU) - convert everything to a scalable DPS equivalent, and use power creep to drive store sales.
I am one of those players with several toons with multiple lives, and I still think that this is good for the game. Solve the problem of the dispersion of levels, which has become more serious while the employers extend the number of levels and possible difficulties, and the population decreases. It also allows those who like variety to have a stable of classes to keep changing day by day. It also helps that there are more people with characters in the cap without having to abandon their grind of past lives. Having so many people clamoring for more people in the cap, it would certainly be a step or to recover the end game (only one step, because the designers have to do something with all those obsolete rais ...) There are other games that make this kind of sharing account based, contrary to what many people think here, it is not a new idea nor does it suppose the end of the world.
I do not think that the sales of otto's boxes will go down, because honestly, does anyone think that many people buy ottos for their alts? I am convinced that most of the people buy them for their main. People investing ottos in their alts will be a minority. And instead could increase the sales of character slot, inventory, tomes, etc. Nowadays many people do not seriously intend to have alts. The grind is sooooo incredibly high for a single character.
But I do not have the least hope that this will take place, that's why I always have asked for account based racial and rpx grind, since those are the most recent systems and the grind for a single character is already stupidly high. With those two systems account based there is a lot still to do with each character (heroic lives, destinies, epic lives, iconic lives, get equipment for each character ... and believe me that for those who have multiple characters gear them takes a long time), but is not realistic to wait that people do all the grind with several toons.
The last time I proposed something like that I only received criticism from the forum's paladins. I had hoped that the designers would be able to see beyond a handful of blind players and see what is really happening with the game, see how many people have now abandoned their alts or are burned with the boring grind that there is now only for a character, let alone if you play multiple toons. I hoped that the designers would see that his policy of favoring a single superman character had gone too far. But I guess I pinned my hopes too high on the designers.
Probably never will change anything, and this will get worse. Probably next year SSG will introduce more past lives or any other absurd system and put another nail in the coffin of the alts.
Last edited by Iriale; 01-09-2018 at 08:31 AM.
The main issue is grouping mechanics. They got one single thing right when they made it so that a level 20 and a level 30 could group together in epic quests with no penalty, but they still only got it half right because the level 30 will prevent Bravery Bonus unless the quest is level 26 or higher so you still have to avoid higher level people when running most of the content the first time.
And then they added reaper. This took everything they had done to make grouping possible and made it so much worse. We now have more restrictive level enforcement in groups than ever before and it is the reason why most LFM's I see for reaper have only 2 people in them. Widening the level range that is allow to group with each other without hurting experience (or reaper experience) would be of huge help in allowing people to play together.
how many people buy ottos for their alts? How many people could buy more tomes, inventory and bank storage, and character slots if they thought that having alts is profitable?
Every coin has two faces. If people consider that the alts are not worthwhile, the potential sale of tomes and so will be lesser. And at the price of otto box, it is possible to wonder how many people buy those not only for their main, but also for alts. I doubt that many people buy ottos for their alts, sincerely.
The current culture of a single superman character is alive now for something.
A valid point indeed. For those that currently invest RL movey into boxes, sp pots and xp elixiers on more than one character the revenue may go down - unless they simply invest the same RL money only for a larger gain. But, very true that in some cases this will lead to a loss in revenue.
However, in other cases the revenue would likely go up
- Some players will be more likely to pay for boxes, xp pots etc when the effect is a gain for all their characters thus spending money they would not have before - I would.
- Some players will be buying more tomes and char/bank space as they would be playing more characters than now - I probably would,
- Some players will be spending more money as they simply play more becasue the change would make it easier playing with friends or pugs - I probably would.
I cannot say for sure if the net effect would be an increase or a decrease in revenue, only that there would be pros and cons and that I would hope it would be an increase for the good of the game.
Last edited by mikarddo; 01-09-2018 at 08:34 AM.
Member of Spellswords on Ghallanda
I've come to learn from solo'ing a large part of my time here at DDO that you can't force people who do not want to group to group. You also cannot convince dedicated groups and guilds that never post LFMs to start posting LFMs...in short. the issue with DDO isn't so much a population issue, it's the attitude of the community towards grouping. IF you have been here long enough you will have lived the through level 20 cap and old epics, you would have been around for the EBB mentality and the waiting forever to fill a PUG for a divine / healer to join, you would have experienced several shifts in attitude in the community and will have come to realise that you either adapt your style to the community or you move on to another game or become an introvert.
I basically got sick of posting LFMs and people joining and then doing whatever they want and zerging ahead, causing DA, causing wipes, etc ... my original guild dried up about 3 years ago, so i started my own solo guild. Currently I dual box two accounts and pretty much play in isolation. Why? Because people don't follow instructions and finding like minded players isn't going to happen because I don't have dedicated play sessions. It's purely random. I cannot expect a group of dedicated players to want to group with me when I can go weeks without playing or logging in.
I personally don't like the idea of shared PLs across toons, i don't see that in any way shape or form encouraging grouping. It's not going to make me want to play my other toons any more than I do now. It's not going to change how I play or the reasons why I want to play. If I don't want to group, I am not going to group period. Until I see a major shift in the attitude of the population in this game I don't see grouping issues being resolved any time soon. Changing game mechanics is not going to encourage me to want to group more than I do currently because the issues I have with grouping are not associated to game mechanics, it's related to the attitude of players.
Personally I am quite happy playing the way I do. Why would I want to change that?
Main toon - Galing (Sarlona)
Heroic Completionist x1 - 11/03/2016. Epic Completionist x1 - 12/04/2016
Current life #43 (14 Epic, 23 Heroic, 3 Iconic, 3 Racial): Warforge 20 Arti 10 Epic
Agreed, it's a perception and is subjective. My point is I am not alone, part of the issue is not so much game mechanics it's attitude. if 50% of the population doesn't want to PUG, nothing is going to change that.
There are many guilds and closed groups that only play in channels and with dedicated players. Changing game mechanics is not going to change their attitude towards PUGging....period.
This to me is a personal issue the OP has with people not wanting to play with him / her or having a hard time finding a PUG or filling their own PUG or just having the right people join. If they were part of a guild / dedicated group that had regular play sessions they would not be here looking to change game mechanics to suite their personal problem with grouping.
I see this as a very old problem. People have been complaining about LFMs and PUGs for a long time. There is a reason people have isolated themselves to private groups and guilds. It's because many players I have encountered in PUGs DON"T LISTEN !!! They will join a flower sniffing pug and zerg ahead and complete to suite their personal agenda of xp / min and then exit out and drop without saying a word is probably the most annoying situation I see often.
The other solution is to actually grow the population and bring in fresh players.
If they will change the way we group then address the LFM panel, address the grouping mechanics, address the player population by bringing in new players or merge servers.
This quote resonated well with me:
Annex
Though I am not a group player I very much want the 'I cannot find a group' problem solved. Unfortunately, I have yet to read any really good suggestion on the subject.
In my opinion, making Past Life Feats and Reaper Experience account based would not cause a significant increase in group availability and would drive some of the most active players from the game. It will not increase the number of players on a server. It will not increase the number of group leaders on a server. It will demolish a lot of work by some of the most active players. It will not help new players at all. It will not help players with one character at all. I doubt it will help casual players much.
The Past Life Feat cap suggested by another forum poster would definitely close the power gap in a hurry. Unfortunately, it would also infuriate the most active players and kill sales of Otto's Boxes, effectively sinking the game. That route leads to disaster.
Players are spread too thin. Any solution needs to drive right at the heart of the problem.
Last edited by sk3l3t0r; 01-09-2018 at 09:22 AM.
Main toon - Galing (Sarlona)
Heroic Completionist x1 - 11/03/2016. Epic Completionist x1 - 12/04/2016
Current life #43 (14 Epic, 23 Heroic, 3 Iconic, 3 Racial): Warforge 20 Arti 10 Epic
The problem of low groups will not be solved by a single measure. There are many factors that lead to this, and several measures will be needed. But if they do not begin to put any measure, then yes we will not see any solution. Same Annex, to whom you quoted, has said something different after thinking on how it would impact him (her?) this change.
The effort of players would not be nullified, because they have enjoyed for years of several better characters and all their characters, current and future, would be better with this measure. I doubt very much that there are a lot of players who have several toons heroic, racial, iconic, epic complecionists. At this point I doubt very much that there are people with complecionist in everything in more than two of their toons, and if there is someone of course it will be a rare avis insignificantly statistically.
While it does not increase the number of players by itself, this measure would help people to be encouraged to have alts scattered by a number of higher levels of the game, which would help you to change from one alt to another as there is lfm or not. It helps that there are people who are encouraged to play quests that they would not otherwise do. For example, the other day some friends invited me to play on r8 with them. But I had just reincarnated to my main and my alts are not ready to play in high reaper. I refused. If the rpx were account based, I could have joined with some of my alts.
A single measure will not solve the grouping problem, because there are several factors that are influencing it. But if we refuse to put measures because one is not going to solve the whole problem, how can we expect anything to improve?
Regarding new players, while I think there are more serious problems that should be solved to encourage new players to stay in the game, I think this measure would benefit them as well. New players have even more complicated to get viable alts that we have been in the game for a while. If I have two completionist toons, and six more characters with a variable number of past lives, and I consider that I have left my alts practically cornered, what will a new player think when he realizes the amount of grind that has ahead with only a character?
The truth, I never would have created the epic lives (I would have created instead a system of progression in the cap to reanimate the end game), iconic (that seems absurd to me) or racial (33 past lifes with their benefits backloaded? What the designers smoke?), but since they are here, at least we try to alleviate the burden for the alts. There are already enough lives for a single character, as to think about doing them in VARIOUS toons.
And if all account-based lives are not done, at least make the last two systems (racial and rxp), which are already over the top in every way.
Last edited by Iriale; 01-09-2018 at 10:04 AM.
A fair point even not entirely accurate. I do agree, obviously, that this wont change a thing for those that either dont want to group or those that only group in a completely static group. But that still leaves those that like to (sometimes) group openly AND those closed circles that group internally without it being completely static groups for improvents,
Back when I didnt have a wife and kids I did play Everquest for 60-70 hours a week raiding 6 days a week for a couple of years in a great guild. I know how well a game plays if you do that - but thats not what I am asking for or trying to achieve here nor do my schedule allow anything even remotely close to that.
Wrt regular play sessions, I do have one of those on Tuesday night and have had for ~4 years running now but with a varying number of people. When epic quests/raids pre reaper was the focus point that worked pretty well because everyone involved could run epic past lives during the week at varying paces yet always could join in on Tuesday as long as you were level 20+. Now, however, racial past lives and reaper xp makes it much harder to have any number of people ready to play at the same level - both because many are spread out in heroics and because racials and rxp makes earning progress on multiple characters practically impossible for most players.
In short - this is not strictly about PUGs, its also about making it feasible to play with those in your own circle of friends/guilds without having to make sure everyone is playing at the same exact pace (which isnt practical or fun).
Last edited by mikarddo; 01-09-2018 at 10:18 AM.
Member of Spellswords on Ghallanda
I agree, and thats a major issue any game company will run into when they sell character power, and add high levels of repetitive grind to the game for those who do not purchase the character power outright.
At some point they have to make decisions which reinforce one specific method of making money, and that decision impacts another revenue source negatively. The decision they made is when people's mains start to max out in character power, they implement a new system, with even more character power and grind to obtain it, which re-leverages the grind-mitigation-as-product this entity has turned into.
Yes, I also believe that the current model of financing is harmful to the game. It produce short-term benefits at the cost of creating serious long-term problems. Even so, they could have maintained a mixed model that did not create so many problems, but at this point ... in short, who does not want to see it is because he is blind.
The most we can hope for are small patches like this one, I'm afraid. And even this I see as doubtful. I think SSG will wait until the problem blows up in their faces.
This. My personal experience tells me that many of my friends left the game not because they couldn't grind stuff for all their alts, but because even their main characters had to grind perks for a few years before they could catch up with top players. Thats why i'm against sharing PLs/rxp etc. I can understand point of view of people who would like to play efficiently with multiple characters/playing styles, but i think reducing distance between new characters and characters with all past lifes/eds/items/tomes etc. is a better solution than forcing new players to long grind to catch up with playerbase, no matter how many characters they could use for that grind. Call me a noob, but it took me 6 years to finish gathering all heroic past lifes and i consider myself as a player who is playing a lot and almost only with main char (though i must admit i never spend tp on xp boost or duped xp potions).
But having several capable alts helps not to burn you so soon. Being all the time in reincarnations without seeing the end is incredibly boring and many people burn. On the other hand, when you have several characters, the game is much more varied. There is a raid, you change an epic character and you do it. There is a group of some quests that you like, you change to another character and you do it. Your guild wants to play anything, you join. A friends needs help, you change to an alt and help him. And when there's nothing like that, you change into the character in which you're making heroic lives, and you enjoy the change of pace and perspective.
I've been doing this for years, and it really helped that the game did not feel repetitive. But since the introduction of the rxp trees (god, how I hate them, but at this point is impossible to remove them) and the racial grind, everything has changed. The alts are getting weaker and it is impossible to keep them up to date. It also did not help that the slavers crafting was so grindy; oh, it's bta, but different classes need different statistics, so I could not farm for all my alts without feeling my head explode in the process. Oh, I do not doubt that a few players have been able to make racials with two characters, but for most mortals, this grind is too much, simply too much, and more in addition to everything that there was before.
Yes, a big part of the problem is that lately all we have obtained from the designers is grind, grind, grind. And it has been a bad thing for the game. But there is still a serious problem for the alts. At least the last two systems, which should never have been created as such, should be account-based. For the sake of our sanity. Because although I would love that those systems were eliminated, devs can not do it at this point. It's too late.
And I sincerely hope that designers do not create more grind in the game in the short term!! No more past lives, please, no more systems designed for a single character like RPX, please. Players have a tolerance limit!
Last edited by Iriale; 01-09-2018 at 11:29 AM.
So very well put. I really think the current state where keeping even one alt let alone several up to date has become a lost cause is quite detrimental to the game.
If the suggestion to make all PL and RXP account shared is too much - and it might be - then please consider this:
- Heroic, Iconic and Epic past lives are not shared
- Racial past lives and reaper xp is shared by characters on the same account that have each bought and used a "Stone of linked memories: 4995 ddo points". By using such a tome all current and future racial PL and rxp on those characters are shared fully.
By doing it this way keeping an alt up to date is still a commitment both in time as you might want heroic/iconic/epic past lives and in money as you need to buy the stone for that alt. I believe this would keep a reasonable balance between cost, convinience and commitment. Thus alts would be viable without being automatically so and hence still have their unique feel.
Further, it would add sales of these stones and still sell Ottos boxes for heroic lives for alts. So my guess is it would be an increase in income initially and not a loss in the longer term.
Member of Spellswords on Ghallanda